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puma713 wrote:

kmdl1066 wrote:Ah, wasn't even considering that. But it doesn't matter. You can assault after moving cruising speed if I remember correctly.

Not without some sort of exemption allowing you to, like Assault Vehicle or Open-Topped.

The Storm Raven does have the Assault Vehicle special rule.

Not when it deep-strikes.

Assault Vehicle is basically saying, "As long as you didn't deep strike, you can assault after disembarking."
HI says, "I can assault after deep-striking."

But the SR moved at Cruising Speed and cannot benefit from the Assault Vehicle rule, so nothing is giving them permission to assault from a vehicle that moved at cruising speed.

Did I miss something? (I often do) Where is the prohibition on assaulting from an Assault Vehicle that moved at cruising speed?

Look at the disembarking rules.

kmdl1066 wrote:That is indeed the discussion at hand.

This particular detour was started on when you mentioned cruising speed. We can all agree cruising speed has no bearing, right?

If I thought it had no bearing, I wouldn't have brought it up. Without the fact that the vehicle moved at Cruising Speed, everything works out.

The Stormraven has a rule that says that you can assault after disembarking, so long as you didn't deep-strike. But, I have a unit that says I can assault after deep-striking. Therefore, if I can disembark, restriction from Assault Vehicle or not, I can assault because HI allows me to.

None of that matters, though, because there is a restriction on the entire assault - the vehicle moved at cruising speed. Without the Assault Vehicle rule, nothing allows the VV to assault after disembarking, no matter what rules they have.

rigeld2 wrote:Look at the disembarking rules.

Okay I did. Now take me by the hand and gently show me where you cannot assault from an Assault Vehicle that moved at cruising speed.

kmdl1066 wrote:Did I miss something? (I often do) Where is the prohibition on assaulting from an Assault Vehicle that moved at cruising speed?

There is a prohibition on assaulting from ALL vehicles that moved at cruising speed. However, some have exemptions to that prohibition.

Open-Topped and Assault Vehicle, most notably.


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kmdl1066 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Look at the disembarking rules.

Okay I did. Now take me by the hand and gently show me where you cannot assault from an Assault Vehicle that moved at cruising speed.

You're missing the point. You can normally assault from a vehicle with the Assault Vehicle rule that moved at Cruising Speed.

However, when the Stormraven deep-strikes that rule is negated. So, it is a normal vehicle moving at Cruising Speed.

No I'm not missing the point. I was questioning the assertion that the SR loses the Assault Vehicle special rule on the turn it deep strikes.

And not very strongly questioning either.

Edit: To explain why you were confusing me: Cruising speed has nothing to do with it. If a closed top, non-Assault vehicle even pivots the passengers may not disembark and assault. The distance moved is immaterial.

kmdl1066 wrote:Did I miss something? (I often do) Where is the prohibition on assaulting from an Assault Vehicle that moved at cruising speed?

To clarify, it's not that it's moving at cruising speed. It's that the SRs assault vehicle rule says that it doesn't work when deep striking.
Deep striking is movement. (specifically cruising speed)
When disembarking from a close topped vehicle that has moved, you're prohibited from assaulting.
The SR normally has a rule allowing this (Assault Vehicle) but that rule doesnt work while Deep Striking.
Therefore you need permission to override that restriction and don't have it anywhere.


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kmdl1066 wrote:No I'm not missing the point. I was questioning the assertion that the SR loses the Assault Vehicle special rule on the turn it deep strikes.

And not very strongly questioning either.

Read the Stormraven rules. It says as much.

Then we make the big circle to where we were a bunch of posts ago to where I acknowledge that you can read it that way but think you can read it another. And we all agree that it is nothing more than an interesting digression and move on with our lives.

Edit: and the reason it is nothing more than an interesting digression is because except for jump packed equipped VV in a storm raven I don't know of any other circumstance where the passengers on a deep striking vehicle even have a possibility of overcoming the "passengers count as deep striking when the transport deep strikes and so cannot assault" prohibition.

How are you reading it any way that Assault Vehicle works?

When I said this way back when:

kmdl1066 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You disembark from a close topped vehicle that moved whose Assault Ramps are non-functional. How do you plan to get past that restriction?

Okay I understand what you're getting at and if the SR rule read "On a turn where the Stormraven does not deepstrike, blah blah" I'd agree with you that there was only one interpretation. The parenthetical nature of the prohibition is what makes it read as a reference to the general rule on assaulting after deep striking. If you read the entry on the Landraider you'll see it has a "Notice blah blah" sentence in just the same manner.

But it's not worth an FAQ from GW and will almost certainly never come up in a game. Interesting discussion reflecting the uncertainty GW creates by the way they approach rules writing though.

But the VV HI rule actually doesn't allow you to assault regardless of the Deep Strike rules. It simply says you can assault that turn, and makes no reference to deep strike, other than the need to declare the HI before the deep striking happens.

There are two things prohibiting a HI from occurring from inside a Storm Raven:

1. The assault vehicle passage, referencing deep strike.
2. The deep strike rules, which state no assaults can be made by deep striking units.

If you think that HI does not ignore the first, then it does not ignore the second either. Nowhere in the rule are you given an overriding permission to assault off of the deep strike. It simply says you have the option. As the deep strike rules say that a unit is disallowed from making an assault, you cannot (when using that reasoning) use HI to assault the turn a deep strike takes place.

It is at this point that said interpretation of HI results in HI not doing anything. Therefore, there are two options left:

1. HI does nothing.
2. HI does something.

If you choose the first, good luck. Ymmv, but I think it will be low.

If you choose the second, you would have to assume that HI removes assault restrictions. As it doesn't specifically say it removes the assault restrictions of Deep Strike or Assault Vehicle, it must do both.

So I was thinking HI allowed you to assault.

Then, after reading Rig's post and reasoning I thought differently.

After re-reading HI I thought they can again.

But now i just think GW likes to write rules like this and watch people discuss it at length. It is like a sick British drinking game, they have a drink for every post.

Kitzz wrote: As it doesn't specifically say it removes the assault restrictions of Deep Strike or Assault Vehicle, it must do both.

That is a huge leap in a permissive ruleset.

Curious here, how did you come to this conclusion:

If you think that HI does not ignore the first, then it does not ignore the second either.

1. The assault vehicle passage, referencing deep strike.
2. The deep strike rules, which state no assaults can be made by deep striking units.

The first one has nothing to do with Vanguard Vets. It simply says, "You may assault after disembarking, provided you did not deep strike." It has nothing at all to do with Vanguard Vets. If the Stormraven deep-struck, then its passengers may not assault. You're taking the Vanguard Vets' rule applying to assaulting after deep-striking and then applying it to the Stormraven.

You're missing the SR restriction. Here is the order of events:

Stormraven Deep strikes (Assault Vehicle rule removed).
Vanguard Vets disembark (counting as having deep-struck).
Vanguard Vets have permission to assault (as they arrived via deep-strike), but do not have permission to assault because they disembarked from a vehicle with a prohibition on assaulting.

This doesn't break HI at all. Furthermore (and the reason I brought up Cruising Speed), there is nothing suggesting that you ignore the restriction that the Stormraven rules places on its passengers.

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DeathReaper wrote:

But now i just think GW likes to write rules like this and watch people discuss it at length. It is like a sick British drinking game, they have a drink for every post.

Makes me wonder if there are Design Team employees sipping a beer, lurking in YMDC.

This is really more simple than you guys are making it.

Question 1: Who is doing the deep striking?

Answer: the Storm Raven

Question 2: Are the vanguards arriving via deep strike?

Answer: No, the Storm Raven is, they are simply along for the ride.

Survey says: HI has no effect because the actual models did not arrive deep strike, the unit they are riding in is what arrived via deep strike.

Simple enough i think!

If the Assault Vehicle rule granted Relentless (except for the turn the SR deep strikes) there'd be no argument that the parenthetical does not refer to the general restriction.

But because it allows assault (except for deep striking) you're assuming it refers to the general restriction?

There's no logical, rules, or plain English basis for that.


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Dave-c wrote:This is really more simple than you guys are making it.

Question 1: Who is doing the deep striking?

Answer: the Storm Raven

Question 2: Are the vanguards arriving via deep strike?

Answer: No, the Storm Raven is, they are simply along for the ride.

Survey says: HI has no effect because the actual models did not arrive deep strike, the unit they are riding in is what arrived via deep strike.

Simple enough i think!

Units embarked in a deep striking vehicle count as arriving by deep strike when they disembark.
So your reasoning is flawed.

puma713 wrote:Vanguard Vets have permission to assault (as they arrived via deep-strike)...

Where is this permission given? They are given a positive choice: assault or not assault. Deep Strike says that after you make a Deep Strike, you cannot assault. Whatever choice they might want to make, in this case it doesn't matter because the normal deep strike rules have a negative impact on that choice, forcing them to have to "choose" to not assault, as it is the only option left.

"If he declares a HI...[the VVs] can assault."

This statement requires an HI to be declared, but makes no reference to overriding Deep Strike or Assault Vehicle or any other restriction. The assumption can be made that it ignores or overrides the more general deep strike rules, but that assumption (imo) is no different, logically, from any other restriction. If the permission they are given does indeed override the Deep Strike rules, then the only viable reasoning left to determine it does not override the Assault Vehicle rule is to prove that the Assault Vehicle rule is more specific than the HI rule. As HI seems to be a subset of Deep Strike options in this case, and as the Assault Vehicle parenthetical applies to solely Deep Strikes, it seems to me that HI is indeed more specific. As opposed to an ability that must be used in all cases of deep striking (Assault Vehicle), HI only applies to specific units with specific wargear when they deep strike, and is thus more specific.

At least that's how I see it. Ymmv.

HI lets you assault after deepstriking.
SR deepstrike rules say passengers may not assault after deepstriking.
So: you may not assault after deepstriking. (disregarding the fact that the SR deepstriked not the Vets)

1) You may fire.
2) You may not fire if pinned.
To override this, you dont just need a rule that says you may fire. That has been already been restricted. To override rule #2 you need a rule that says:
3) You may fire if pinned.
If an action has been restricted, you need another rule that specifically overrides that restriction to be allowed again.

Nemesor Dave wrote: (disregarding the fact that the SR deepstriked not the Vets)

As shown by Rig, the above is not true:

"Units embarked in a deep striking vehicle count as arriving by deep strike when they disembark."

If a unit arrives by deep strike, even if it is embarked, count as arriving by deep strike.

DeathReaper wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote: (disregarding the fact that the SR deepstriked not the Vets)

As shown by Rig, the above is not true:

"Units embarked in a deep striking vehicle count as arriving by deep strike when they disembark."

If a unit arrives by deep strike, even if it is embarked, count as arriving by deep strike.

Good point. The rest of my comment still stands I believe. The restriction due to being a deepstriking passenger of the SR still prevents them from assaulting.

You have two things preventing you from assaulting from a vehicle that moved and also Deep Struck

1) The vehilce moved
2) You have arrived via Deepstrike

2) Is overridden by HI - you are allowed to assault if you DS onto the field
1) is *normally* overridden by the Assault vehicle rules - however the Assault Vehicle rules do NOT apply if the vehicle DS that turn, as specified in the rules

So you have allowance from one source, but a restriction from another source

No assault. Same as having fleet doesnt let you assault having disembarked from a normal close topped vehicle.

I concur; I do think it's a similar case to Fleet. The special rule (in this case HI) overrides one restriction (Deep Striking) but not the other (disembarking from a moving, closed-top vehicle). The Stormraven's Assault Vehicle rule would normally override that restriction, but that rule is inactive in a turn in which the SR Deep Strikes.

It is is an interesting situation, I am leaning towards your views Rig/Nos/Mann, and thank you for your input.

The only thing still getting me is that the DS rules disallow an assault, the Transport rules also disallow an assault.

Here is what HI says: "If a JP equipped VV squad arrives from Reserve by DS, the player can elect to perform a HI... If he declared a HI, the VV squad cannot shoot (Or run) that turn but can assault..."

So we have two things saying they can not assault, but the VV rules say they can.

Why allow the HI rules to bypass the "can not assault" from the DS rules, but not bypass the "can not assault" from the transport rules.

What am I missing?

Context, mainly. You are allowed to assault when deepstriking, same as "you can assault having Run" (not a quote....) in Fleet doesnt mean "you can assault regardless of having done anything else that may restrict you from assaulting"

Heroic Intervention says that it must be declared before the scatter dice are rolled, and that you can only use it when Deep Striking from Reserve (IE - not Skies of Blood).
To me, that implies that it's only over-riding the "normal" deep strike rules. The entire rule is referring to Deep Strike - there's no reference to any other rules. Why attempt to over-ride those?

Is there a counter example that may be more clear?

rigeld2 wrote:Heroic Intervention says that it must be declared before the scatter dice are rolled, and that you can only use it when Deep Striking from Reserve (IE - not Skies of Blood).
To me, that implies that it's only over-riding the "normal" deep strike rules. The entire rule is referring to Deep Strike - there's no reference to any other rules. Why attempt to over-ride those?

Is there a counter example that may be more clear?

No, I guess context makes sense. So they would not be able to assault.

It just seems strange to over-ride one thing that say you can not assault, but not to over-ride the other thing that says you can not assault.

But thank you guys for the input.

Again - Fleet overrides one thing denying assault (having Run) but it does not override another restriction (having disembarked from a moving, closed topped vehicle)

nosferatu1001 wrote:Again - Fleet overrides one thing denying assault (having Run) but it does not override another restriction (having disembarked from a moving, closed topped vehicle)

Yes, but fleet explicitly says you can assault after you run.

HI does not explicitly say you may assault after you deep strike. It says if you arrive from reserve by DS you may declare HI, and if HI is declared you may assault.

But It makes sense that the context is talking about assaulting and over-riding the DS restriction, it just would have been more clear had they actually said that.

So VV's can not assault in the situation above.

Maybe I'm wrong here but I don't think anyone has brought up the point that disembarking would come after the deep strike even is the deep striking rule for the SR didn't prohibit assaults.

VVs deep strike and can assault but not shoot.

VVs deep strike, disembark and then assault? That kind of takes away the need for HI doesn't it?

Would the same be said if they came down in a drop pod? Because of the addendum that "...(providing the Stormraven did not deep strike)" is there it renders the drop pod and the Stormraven a non-assault vehicle but you must disembark from a drop pod.

Mordechai wrote:Would the same be said if they came down in a drop pod? Because of the addendum that "...(providing the Stormraven did not deep strike)" is there it renders the drop pod and the Stormraven a non-assault vehicle but you must disembark from a drop pod.

HI only works if they have Jump Packs - and I didn't think you could Drop Pod models with Jump Packs.