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Blood Angels Vanguard can take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport. They may assault the turn they arrive by deep strike. However, the Land Raider Deep Strike rules say no unit may assault the turn they arrive by Deep Striking in the LR. Which rule takes precedent?

*edited

Have another read of Heroic Intervention. You'll see that it says "jump pack equipped."

So no HI for Raider mounted VV.

In order to be able to use the assault after DS rule you have to have jump packs which you give up for the Transport.

thanks y'all

What if they're in a storm raven? I know they can't use skies of blood, but what about a normal disembark?

Kitzz wrote:What if they're in a storm raven? I know they can't use skies of blood, but what about a normal disembark?

if anyone disembarks normally from a SR (Unless the SR moved flat out, or arrived via deepstrike) they are allowed to assault, due to the Assault vehicle rule.

Kitzz wrote:What if they're in a storm raven? I know they can't use skies of blood, but what about a normal disembark?

Presumably we're still talking about deep striking vehicles, here. No, the unit cannot disembark from a deep-striking Storm Raven (or any vehicle, for that matter) and launch an assault in the same turn (Rulebook FAQ, p8; Rulebook, p95).

I mean specifically if the storm raven deep struck and the VGVs also have jump packs and normally disembark from inside of it on that same turn.

Kitzz wrote:I mean specifically if the storm raven deep struck and the VGVs also have jump packs and normally disembark from inside of it on that same turn.

The Heroic Intervention rule specifically gives you this information, check P. 27 of the BA codex, or P.62 of the SM codex.

@DR: So would you say yes or no? I think RaW it is a yes, although I feel that many would dispute the RaI.

The VV count as deep striking if their transport did.
They have jump packs and arrived from reserve by deep strike.
They can assault.

Someone can RAI all they want, but there is no question what the rules say.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cheexsta wrote:

Kitzz wrote:What if they're in a storm raven? I know they can't use skies of blood, but what about a normal disembark?

Presumably we're still talking about deep striking vehicles, here. No, the unit cannot disembark from a deep-striking Storm Raven (or any vehicle, for that matter) and launch an assault in the same turn (Rulebook FAQ, p8; Rulebook, p95).

Normally true, but the specific situation is Heroic Intervention which will take precedent over the general deep strike rules.

kmdl1066 wrote:The VV count as deep striking if their transport did.
They have jump packs and arrived from reserve by deep strike.
They can assault.

Someone can RAI all they want, but there is no question what the rules say.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cheexsta wrote:

Kitzz wrote:What if they're in a storm raven? I know they can't use skies of blood, but what about a normal disembark?

Presumably we're still talking about deep striking vehicles, here. No, the unit cannot disembark from a deep-striking Storm Raven (or any vehicle, for that matter) and launch an assault in the same turn (Rulebook FAQ, p8; Rulebook, p95).

Normally true, but the specific situation is Heroic Intervention which will take precedent over the general deep strike rules.

The Stormraven entry has a specific rule that prevents models from launching an assault after disembarking from the raven in the turn it entered play via Deepstrike. In this case that clearly written specific rule overrides the general Heroic Intervention rules.

As an aside, Jump Pack Vanguard launching an assault out of a deepstriking Stormraven is a ridiculous waste for the Blood Angel player given the large Stormraven footprint that doesn't benefit from DoA rerolls and reduced scatter.

If you make that argument, Halfpast, you logically must also conclude Heroic intervention does nothing, even in the "normal" case.

That is not a logical conclusion at all?

Normally DSing troops can not assault.

Heroic Intervention is the more specific rule.

Stormraven rule >more specific than > heroic intervention >> general prohibition on deepstriking troops assaulting.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Stormraven rule >more specific than > heroic intervention >> general prohibition on deepstriking troops assaulting.

Seeing as the SR rule has similar language as the Deep Strike rule, then HI will override it.

If you think HI does not override the SR's rule, then HI will not override the general prohibition on DS and assault.

It doesn't matter how many words in the rules are the same. Specific > general.

The specific prohibition in the BA codex stormraven entry supercedes the general exemption HI grants jump VV over the even broader BRB Deepstrike rules.

Obviously once the Stormraven entry is determined to be the most specific your argument falls on the sword of it's own logic.

The Heroic Intervention rule is more specific because it applies to a smaller group or more specific situation.

General situation SR deep strikes onto the table, embarked unit disembarks and can not assault.

More specific situation SR deep strikes onto the table, embarked unit with Jump packs disembark and normally can not assault, but HI overrides this restriction.

The SR rule is like this because normally DSing units can not assault, and the assault vehicle says units that disembark may assault, so they had to add the clause (Provided it did not DS) to once again disallow units that have Deep Struck from assaulting, just like everyone that Deep Strike's.

DeathReaper wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Stormraven rule >more specific than > heroic intervention >> general prohibition on deepstriking troops assaulting.

Seeing as the SR rule has similar language as the Deep Strike rule, then HI will override it.

If you think HI does not override the SR's rule, then HI will not override the general prohibition on DS and assault.

HI overrides the basic Deep Strike rules (BRB page 95) but the BA Stormraven rules specify something different - If you disembark from a SR on the turn it Deep Strikes, the assault ramps don't work. There's no rule lifting the restriction of not assaulting from a moved closed topped transport.

Therefore, no assault from a DS Stormraven

That's an interpretation. Another interpretation (the one I go with) is that the "providing the Stormraven did not deep strike" wording is just to make it clear that the Assault Vehicle special rule does not override the normal prohibition against assaulting the turn a unit deep strikes. Which would make it less specific than Heroic Intervention.

Of course the real question is still what possible reason could someone have for deep striking a Stormraven with embarked jump pack equipped VV?

kmdl1066 wrote:That's an interpretation. Another interpretation (the one I go with) is that the "providing the Stormraven did not deep strike" wording is just to make it clear that the Assault Vehicle special rule does not override the normal prohibition against assaulting the turn a unit deep strikes.

Do you have a basis for that interpretation? The SR rules don't reference the BRB prohibition on Deep Strike, they don't say something like "except of course for deep striking", it just says No.

As much of a basis as you have for claiming that the "did not deep strike" clause of the Stormraven's Assault Vehicle special rule overrides Heroic Intervention.

But not that it actually matters. Of all the arguments on YMDC the best are the truly pointless ones.

kmdl1066 wrote:As much of a basis as you have for claiming that the "did not deep strike" clause of the Stormraven's Assault Vehicle special rule overrides Heroic Intervention.

But not that it actually matters. Of all the arguments on YMDC the best are the truly pointless ones.

Actually, I'm not saying that anything override Heroic Intervention. In fact, I'll give you that it works.

You disembark from a close topped vehicle that moved whose Assault Ramps are non-functional. How do you plan to get past that restriction?

rigeld2 wrote:
Actually, I'm not saying that anything override Heroic Intervention. In fact, I'll give you that it works.

You disembark from a close topped vehicle that moved whose Assault Ramps are non-functional. How do you plan to get past that restriction?

I agree here. The vehicle moved at Cruising speed. Without the Assault Vehicle exemption, nothing is allowing the VV to assault, deep-striking or not.

Ah, wasn't even considering that. But it doesn't matter. You can assault after moving cruising speed if I remember correctly.

kmdl1066 wrote:Ah, wasn't even considering that. But it doesn't matter. You can assault after moving cruising speed if I remember correctly.

Not without some sort of exemption allowing you to, like Assault Vehicle or Open-Topped.

rigeld2 wrote:
You disembark from a close topped vehicle that moved whose Assault Ramps are non-functional. How do you plan to get past that restriction?

Okay I understand what you're getting at and if the SR rule read "On a turn where the Stormraven does not deepstrike, blah blah" I'd agree with you that there was only one interpretation. The parenthetical nature of the prohibition is what makes it read as a reference to the general rule on assaulting after deep striking. If you read the entry on the Landraider you'll see it has a "Notice blah blah" sentence in just the same manner.

But it's not worth an FAQ from GW and will almost certainly never come up in a game. Interesting discussion reflecting the uncertainty GW creates by the way they approach rules writing though.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:

kmdl1066 wrote:Ah, wasn't even considering that. But it doesn't matter. You can assault after moving cruising speed if I remember correctly.

Not without some sort of exemption allowing you to, like Assault Vehicle or Open-Topped.

The Storm Raven does have the Assault Vehicle special rule.

kmdl1066 wrote:Ah, wasn't even considering that. But it doesn't matter. You can assault after moving cruising speed if I remember correctly.

Not if it's a close topped vehicle. Moving, even pivoting, before disembarking means no assault.