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Keeping the Thunderwolves behind Rhinos is a no brainer really...more often than not, a lot of opponents will try their hardest to put as many wounds on the Thunderwolves first over the Rhino's due to the ability to stun lock as you pointed out. Put the Wolves behind them and yeah they can get hemmed in but they can play a crucial job of counter assaulting in units that maul the Rhino units.

One suggestion I may add for the Lord is to take a Wolf Claw and Wolf Tail Talisman. Wolf Claw capitalizes Initiative while the Talisman can be the difference between being removed from play or not (i.e. Jaws or Heroic Sacrifice)

You seriously don't know that Wolf Lords can take Eternal Warrior? Wow.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:Keeping the Thunderwolves behind Rhinos is a no brainer really...more often than not, a lot of opponents will try their hardest to put as many wounds on the Thunderwolves first over the Rhino's due to the ability to stun lock as you pointed out. Put the Wolves behind them and yeah they can get hemmed in but they can play a crucial job of counter assaulting in units that maul the Rhino units.

One suggestion I may add for the Lord is to take a Wolf Claw and Wolf Tail Talisman. Wolf Claw capitalizes Initiative while the Talisman can be the difference between being removed from play or not (i.e. Jaws or Heroic Sacrifice)

I thought keeping the Thunderwolves behind the Rhinos is a no brainer too, I guess some people think they should be put out front to be shot.

I'll mention that to Shaun, though I think he is sold on the power fist, though the claw is a nice piece of kit with re-roll to wound.

-666- wrote:You seriously don't know that Wolf Lords can take Eternal Warrior? Wow.

Did you miss the part where I said I don't play Space Wolves and don't know their codex? It's not like you know every wargear out there for every codex is it?

This is how I would have played it (as the Space Wolf player). Keep in mind that there isn't really a right or wrong here....just a preference in strategy.

I would've played the TWC very aggressively and put them up front, with the rhinos behind for cover. One thing people don't realize is just how tough TWC are, especially with T5, wound allocation and a 2+/3++ lord attached. I would use them to soak up shots meant for my rhinos and even if they die, so be it. In an objectives game, any unit not scoring is a sacrificial pawn, even if that pawn is a 500pt+ unit. More important than the survivability of the TWC is the mobility of the SW troops - being able to get to the objectives. Everything else in the army is just a "distraction" unit, meant to misdirect the opponent from dealing with the troops until it is too late (i.e. they are already secured and defending the objectives).

I think in a multiple-objectives mission, usually the aggressor will have the advantage (as long as both armies are similar in power and balance).

mercer if I were you I would spend a lot of timing reading all the codices and get to know every rule inside out. Your weekly rate of batreps is really quite prodigious and it would behoove you to understand the game better in my opinion. This my constructive advice for you. : )

how does the talisman work against heroic sacrifice? I'm not a SW player either so I'm not sure I've ever seen a talisman used before so I don't know the rules.

For heroic sacrifice though, the unit's target for psychic power is actually himself like a buff (i.e. hammer hand). if you pass that test, it lets you swing and roll to hit the enemy as a physical attack with special powers behind it and as far as I know, it doesn't count as using a psychic power against the other model. At least that's how we've been playing it which is how we allow crowe to kill kharn with the move since kharn is immune to all pyschic powers but not immune to physical hits.

sudojoe wrote:how does the talisman work against heroic sacrifice? I'm not a SW player either so I'm not sure I've ever seen a talisman used before so I don't know the rules.

For heroic sacrifice though, the unit's target for psychic power is actually himself like a buff (i.e. hammer hand). if you pass that test, it lets you swing and roll to hit the enemy as a physical attack with special powers behind it and as far as I know, it doesn't count as using a psychic power against the other model. At least that's how we've been playing it which is how we allow crowe to kill kharn with the move since kharn is immune to all pyschic powers but not immune to physical hits.

The WTT (wolftail talisman) lets the unit ignore any psychic power directed at them on a 5+.

I normally play it that Heroic Sacrifice is targeting the opponent's model. Yeah, you have to roll to hit it, but then you also have to roll to hit with psychic shooting attacks as well. The point is, there is a target. Say that Crowe is surrounded by enemy models. If it was just a unit buff, Heroic Sacrifice should affect all those in base with Crowe. However, it only specifically affects 1 model that Crowe picks out and that model would be his target.

mercer wrote:I have to disagree with what you're saying about the Thunderwolves. The Wolves are a higher priority threat to me than Rhinos. I can stop Rhinos with stunned or immobilised results or slow the infantry down with wrecked or explodes results. Thunderwolves can really close that gap quick, and if I am not moving tanks (to get maximum psycannon shots) then they will auto hit and take out those tanks. By keeping those Thunderwolves behind the Rhinos it allowed them to reach my lines and cause some damage.

mercer wrote:Nothing has been picked off piecemeal at all as everything moves up together. Rhinos stay together and Thunderwolves behind. Everything is in one formation. I just have to target priority like I do in any game. You could say I am picking off his army piecemeal by shooting the Thunderwolves first and then the Rhinos. I don't understand your point about this or what you're trying to say. I don't think you read the report probably as you'll see he had plenty of target saturation, everything was altogether.

Everythingg that jy2 has said really, plus :-
1) They CAN be pick off piecemeal if the GK player is smart enough. The GK army is shootier, and most of its weapons can move and shoot. By placing the TWC perpetually behind the rhinos, the GK can move back and shoot, move back and shoot. Until the rhinos are all crippled, then target the TWCs.

mercer wrote:You're right that anything which can damage the Rhinos can damage the Thunderwolves, not sure what your point is on this.

OMG. This is called target saturation.

mercer wrote:I think my advice let those Thunderwolves reach my lines instead of me picking them off first turn and giving his infantry some breathing room. If his Thunderwolves were at the front like you suggested then they wouldn't even play a part in the game at all besides dying.

Rifledreads aside, 48 Psycannon shots will place about 8 wounds on the TWC squad (with Lord), and crippled 5 AV11 vehs (i have excluded glance results) on AVERAGE.

So anything that could cripple 4 rhinos, will not even decimate totally a squad of TWC. So say you have firepower to indeed decimate a squad of TWC + Lord, then hiding them out of LOS would mean death to ALL the rhinos (because obviously you have nothing else to shoot at anyway). In this case, what good is it to have all TWC+ Lord intact? You are going to send them in against a full army of GK? That is piecemeal :-).

mercer wrote:As you've said, I've also mentioned why I don't go to tournaments, plus there's not G.T's in the UK anyway. I don't think there's anything to blame there at all, it's a choice, people just need to step up their game or I need to be more selective about who I play.

I can't see how playing toy soliders at a gaming club or at your mates or a local tournament is going to be any different in a larger tournament. Things are just going to be more stricter rule wise and better players.

Obviously you get to play MUCH better players in large tournaments.... Duhz. It's evident from your bat reps
Yeah, you have your choice. I m just saying too bad that you are feeling bored from winning :-)

mercer wrote:

-666- wrote:You seriously don't know that Wolf Lords can take Eternal Warrior? Wow.

Did you miss the part where I said I don't play Space Wolves and don't know their codex? It's not like you know every wargear out there for every codex is it?

Actually, the really good players do :-). Or at least, 90%

Isseyfaran wrote:
Everythingg that jy2 has said really, plus :-
1) They CAN be pick off piecemeal if the GK player is smart enough. The GK army is shootier, and most of its weapons can move and shoot. By placing the TWC perpetually behind the rhinos, the GK can move back and shoot, move back and shoot. Until the rhinos are all crippled, then target the TWCs.

Thanks. However, while GK's have the flexibility of moving back and shooting, it would be a huge mistake to do so in an objectives game. When you retreat from the enemy's objective, you are playing for the Tie or the Loss. When you advance, you are playing for the Win or the Tie. Once they back-track, purifiers just don't have the mobility to reach enemy objectives in the late game. It would be a huge mistake to do so and thus, in my books, that is not an option if you want to win.

No, in an objectives game, GK's need to either stand or advance, even if it's at the slower 6" speed so that they can fire all psycannons. Keep together so that when the TWC eventually hit your transports, you can wipe them out with a multi-counter-assault.

jy2 wrote:
Thanks. However, while GK's have the flexibility of moving back and shooting, it would be a huge mistake to do so in an objectives game. When you retreat from the enemy's objective, you are playing for the Tie or the Loss. When you advance, you are playing for the Win or the Tie. Once they back-track, purifiers just don't have the mobility to reach enemy objectives in the late game. It would be a huge mistake to do so and thus, in my books, that is not an option if you want to win.

No, in an objectives game, GK's need to either stand or advance, even if it's at the slower 6" speed so that they can fire all psycannons. Keep together so that when the TWC eventually hit your transports, you can wipe them out with a multi-counter-assault.

The comments in bold is in my opinion, not true. You have 5-7 turns to play the game.
The GK list only needs 1-2 turns to cripple ALL the rhinos, and can spend turn 3-7 shooting, and later advancing and wiping out the TWC. 2 turns is enough for you to return to position. There is no need to engage the enemy in assault (if you can help it) if your firepower is MUCH stronger than the opponent's.

In fact, as soon as the all mobile elements of the SW is crippled (i.e Rhinos and any speeders), the GK player can even choose to spread out if it is sieze ground mission, target the Long fangs and leave the TWC alone. The TWC squad can only engage/move towards one side at a time.

jy2 wrote:This is how I would have played it (as the Space Wolf player). Keep in mind that there isn't really a right or wrong here....just a preference in strategy.

I would've played the TWC very aggressively and put them up front, with the rhinos behind for cover. One thing people don't realize is just how tough TWC are, especially with T5, wound allocation and a 2+/3++ lord attached. I would use them to soak up shots meant for my rhinos and even if they die, so be it. In an objectives game, any unit not scoring is a sacrificial pawn, even if that pawn is a 500pt+ unit. More important than the survivability of the TWC is the mobility of the SW troops - being able to get to the objectives. Everything else in the army is just a "distraction" unit, meant to misdirect the opponent from dealing with the troops until it is too late (i.e. they are already secured and defending the objectives).

I think in a multiple-objectives mission, usually the aggressor will have the advantage (as long as both armies are similar in power and balance).

Using a 500 point plus uunit as a sacrificial pawn is a waste of points and bad idea. Putting a unit that costs 1/4 of your army out front to die is perhaps the worst way to use a unit like that. Sure, the troops are more important, though you only need to hold one objective and contest all others. There was one objective I had little chance of getting and Shaun contested the centre and could have used Thunderwolves if they still was alive to contest the other objective.

-666- wrote:mercer if I were you I would spend a lot of timing reading all the codices and get to know every rule inside out. Your weekly rate of batreps is really quite prodigious and it would behoove you to understand the game better in my opinion. This my constructive advice for you. : )

I have all codexes, though have only skimmed the Wolf one to get a basic idea of things. I don't need to know every single item of wargear for every single codex. Knowing a army is one thing (which I do) knowing every piece of wargear isn't needed, something like this can be easily explained before game.

Isseyfaran wrote:

1) They CAN be pick off piecemeal if the GK player is smart enough. The GK army is shootier, and most of its weapons can move and shoot. By placing the TWC perpetually behind the rhinos, the GK can move back and shoot, move back and shoot. Until the rhinos are all crippled, then target the TWCs.

Everything in every game is picked off piecemeal according to you then. I don't understand what you're on about piecemeal all the time.

How can my G.K move back and shoot when they are near the board edge? Why would I move AWAY from objectives for?

And are you telling me to target Thunderwolves after Rhinos have been dealt with? If so, that's what I did.

Lets say I run with your idea and putting the Thunderwolves at front. They would be shot first turn and probably just the Lord surviving, to reserve situation I am picking off the Thunderwolves first and by your words piecemeal, your entire point is that putting the Rhinos forward I am picking the army apart piecemeal, yet the same thing would happen in the reserve situation! Add in the fact that with the Thunderwolves at the front they would probably die and add nothing to this game, it's not like I am going to let them charge my lines if I can help it.

I think you're trying to make a point that you're right about putting Thunderwolves at the front by using this whole piecemeal gag, yet in the reverse situation the same thing will happen to the Wolves as did the Rhinos, which as you say, it picking things off piecemeal. If you think putting Thunderwolves at the front to be shot to ribbons then power to you.

OMG. This is called target saturation.[q/uote]

Clever boy, you just work that out?

Rifledreads aside, 48 Psycannon shots will place about 8 wounds on the TWC squad (with Lord), and crippled 5 AV11 vehs (i have excluded glance results) on AVERAGE.

So anything that could cripple 4 rhinos, will not even decimate totally a squad of TWC. So say you have firepower to indeed decimate a squad of TWC + Lord, then hiding them out of LOS would mean death to ALL the rhinos (because obviously you have nothing else to shoot at anyway). In this case, what good is it to have all TWC+ Lord intact? You are going to send them in against a full army of GK? That is piecemeal :-).

I worked out that all my psycannons and autocannons would probably wipe out all Thunderwolves and leave the Lord with a few wounds, which is kind of my point. In my deployment it's easy to multi assault those Rhinos, that's what the Thunderwolves could have done next turn. When the Thunderwolves were out of sight I didn't see much death to Rhinos, did you read the report? I still don't get what you're trying to say about this piecemeal all the time...the entire army is coming together as whole, Rhinos are getting shot at because that's what my psycannons can reach and Long Fangs are getting shot because target priority. Nothing is getting picked off piecemeal, as I said, that must be a general term for every game you play from what you say.

Obviously you get to play MUCH better players in large tournaments.... Duhz. It's evident from your bat reps
Yeah, you have your choice. I m just saying too bad that you are feeling bored from winning :-)

Isseyfaran wrote:

jy2 wrote:
Thanks. However, while GK's have the flexibility of moving back and shooting, it would be a huge mistake to do so in an objectives game. When you retreat from the enemy's objective, you are playing for the Tie or the Loss. When you advance, you are playing for the Win or the Tie. Once they back-track, purifiers just don't have the mobility to reach enemy objectives in the late game. It would be a huge mistake to do so and thus, in my books, that is not an option if you want to win.

No, in an objectives game, GK's need to either stand or advance, even if it's at the slower 6" speed so that they can fire all psycannons. Keep together so that when the TWC eventually hit your transports, you can wipe them out with a multi-counter-assault.

The comments in bold is in my opinion, not true. You have 5-7 turns to play the game.
The GK list only needs 1-2 turns to cripple ALL the rhinos, and can spend turn 3-7 shooting, and later advancing and wiping out the TWC. 2 turns is enough for you to return to position. There is no need to engage the enemy in assault (if you can help it) if your firepower is MUCH stronger than the opponent's.

In fact, as soon as the all mobile elements of the SW is crippled (i.e Rhinos and any speeders), the GK player can even choose to spread out if it is sieze ground mission, target the Long fangs and leave the TWC alone. The TWC squad can only engage/move towards one side at a time.

"Returning to position" is not enough. You need to be advancing to try to reach the objectives and that's not as easy as you think. It'll take more than 1-2 turns to cripple all the rhinos because you've got this huge, fast deathstar rapidly advancing towards you. Your first 1-2 turns will be in trying to deal with them before you even fire at the rhinos behind them (that's getting cover BTW from them or from smokes). Now you can feel free to ignore them and shoot at the rhinos first, but it'll be a big mistake to face them at full strength. And while you are dealing with the deathstar and transports, the experienced player (not necessarily Mercer's actual opponent) will be trying to take out your mobility as well with long fangs and approaching meltas.

Don't get me wrong. You can still win by back-pedaling away from the enemy for a couple of turns. You're just making it much, much harder for yourself by doing so. You probably need to table the opponent or at least wipe out all his troops to do so from range and judging from all the grey hunters he's bringing, not going to happen with just shooting. The problem here is time. If you retreat for 1-2 turns so that you get more rounds of shooting at your opponent, it'll take you at least 1 turn to get back to your original position. That means it's at least Turn 3 before you're even heading towards your opponent's objective. During that time, if the opponent is at all experienced, he will be taking out some of your transports and more importantly, will have established Postional Dominance because he was advancing and is now holed up on the objectives and approaching yours to contest. Meanwhile, his objective is free from threat.

When I play C&C I have some units dedicated to holding my marker and some dedicated to capturing/contesting the opponent's. It is a simple strategy and seems to always work well for me.

jy2 wrote:
"Returning to position" is not enough. You need to be advancing to try to reach the objectives and that's not as easy as you think. It'll take more than 1-2 turns to cripple all the rhinos because you've got this huge, fast deathstar rapidly advancing towards you. Your first 1-2 turns will be in trying to deal with them before you even fire at the rhinos behind them (that's getting cover BTW from them or from smokes). Now you can feel free to ignore them and shoot at the rhinos first, but it'll be a big mistake to face them at full strength. And while you are dealing with the deathstar and transports, the experienced player (not necessarily Mercer's actual opponent) will be trying to take out your mobility as well with long fangs and approaching meltas.

Don't get me wrong. You can still win by back-pedaling away from the enemy for a couple of turns. You're just making it much, much harder for yourself by doing so. You probably need to table the opponent or at least wipe out all his troops to do so from range and judging from all the grey hunters he's bringing, not going to happen with just shooting. The problem here is time. If you retreat for 1-2 turns so that you get more rounds of shooting at your opponent, it'll take you at least 1 turn to get back to your original position. That means it's at least Turn 3 before you're even heading towards your opponent's objective. During that time, if the opponent is at all experienced, he will be taking out some of your transports and more importantly, will have established Postional Dominance because he was advancing and is now holed up on the objectives and approaching yours to contest. Meanwhile, his objective is free from threat.

And that's why Thunderwolves hide behind the Rhinos. The Rhinos can get cover anyway thanks to smoke and I don't think the Thunderwolves are big enough to give cover to a Rhino. If the Thunderwolves are at front like Issayfran suggested, then they will be shot to gak, which is exactly what I want as I don't want them hitting my lines at full strength (like they did).

Of course, if you're moving away from the enemy unit there is only so far you can move, plus you're firing those psycannons are assault rate of fire power, which means enemy units are going to be harder to kill as you're losing rate of fire power. Just stay static, fire at full heavy fire power, then get out when the enemy units come too close. Easy peasy.

As for Long Fangs, indeed they will be blasting Rhinos and Dreadnought (probably Rhinos so Wolves can mop up infantry), it doesn't take half a brain to think of that little tactic.

-666- wrote:When I play C&C I have some units dedicated to holding my marker and some dedicated to capturing/contesting the opponent's. It is a simple strategy and seems to always work well for me.

That's what I do in capture and control. I tend to have a dedciated objective holding in majority of my armies i.e Grots, Immortals, Scouts etc. In seize ground (which we was playing) I eye up X number of objectives which I think I have good chances of claiming and then leave the rest. In this case I wrote off the objective Shaun's side as I am not fast enough to reach it. If I had the chance I would have moved all Rhinos about the tower ruin to block off the objective in later turns. I also never go for objectives until turn 4, unless I am not in a position to reach them turn 4 and then I go turn 3, though mostly it's turn 4.

mercer wrote:Everything in every game is picked off piecemeal according to you then. I don't understand what you're on about piecemeal all the time.

Not true. If i can deal with your rhinos first (because they might be in threat range next turn) without having to worry about your TWC hurting me next turn, that's piecemeal. Putting your TWC behind the rhinos is putting yourself into that situation.

mercer wrote:How can my G.K move back and shoot when they are near the board edge? Why would I move AWAY from objectives for?

Then the problem lies with YOUR deployment. I wouldnt deploy that way. Alot of players don't assess the threat range of their opponent's unit. Your deployment is sieze ground. Your weapons mostly have a 24" threat range. You can deploy 24" away from your opponent WITHOUT having to be at the board edge (unless you don't play on 6 by 4). And your opponent DOES NOT have a 24" assault threat range.

mercer wrote:And are you telling me to target Thunderwolves after Rhinos have been dealt with? If so, that's what I did.

I m telling you your advice for your friend is bad because it allowed you to do exactly that...

mercer wrote:Lets say I run with your idea and putting the Thunderwolves at front. They would be shot first turn and probably just the Lord surviving, to reserve situation I am picking off the Thunderwolves first and by your words piecemeal, your entire point is that putting the Rhinos forward I am picking the army apart piecemeal, yet the same thing would happen in the reserve situation! Add in the fact that with the Thunderwolves at the front they would probably die and add nothing to this game, it's not like I am going to let them charge my lines if I can help it.

I m assuming you mean REVERSE, not RESERVE.

The reverse is not true. By putting your TWC in the front lines TOGETHER with the rhinos, the GK army will not have the firepower to cripple EVERYTHING all at once. If it targets the TWC, the GHs will be in its face. However, putting the TWC behind allows the GK to not need to cripple EVERYTHING all at once.

mercer wrote:I think you're trying to make a point that you're right about putting Thunderwolves at the front by using this whole piecemeal gag, yet in the reverse situation the same thing will happen to the Wolves as did the Rhinos, which as you say, it picking things off piecemeal. If you think putting Thunderwolves at the front to be shot to ribbons then power to you.

I don't know what gag you are talking about, but as i illustrated, the reverse will not be the same.

mercer wrote:Clever boy, you just work that out?

I just worked that out for you because obviously you had problem understanding what is target saturation, and even asked what am i talking about.

mercer wrote:I worked out that all my psycannons and autocannons would probably wipe out all Thunderwolves and leave the Lord with a few wounds, which is kind of my point.

Anything that could do that would have more than crippled 4 rhinos. But you didnt, as evident in your batrep. So assuming same luck, you wouldnt have done what you just claimed. :-)
In any case, the argument is that TWC squad is tougher than 4 rhinos. And getting 4 rhinos crippled puts the SW player in a worst off situation than his TWC decimated.

mercer wrote:Pretty sure I said you get to play better players, didn't you ead that part? If my battle reports are so boring then why you keep reading and posting on them?

You were the one who said you are bored from always winning, and i explained by saying that that's because you refused to player MUCH BETTER players in larger settings - therefore too bad. And yeah, you say you dont think there is going to be any different playing with better players in tournament settings, and my point is there IS difference playing with BETTER PLAYERS :-). In fact, you even said you get bored playing weaker (comparatively) players and winning.
Nothing was said about whether your batrep is boring or not - if you HAVEN'T wake up and realize what you are talking about... In fact, a batrep can be about a noob playing a noob, and still be an interesting batrep because of the laugh in it.

mercer wrote:See I can't win with people like you. There is no doubt that if I didn't give Shaun any advice then the game would have had a more brutal outcome.

For reasons given above, it would probably have been a better game

mercer wrote:People like you would then moan than I am playing against noobs or baby seal clubing or whatever. When I do give people advice so I can have a better quality game you then bitch about it then! WTF

Actually, whether you give advice OR not, it wouldnt change the fact that you are playing noobs (IF you are playing noobs). So i seriously dont see what you are talking about.

mercer wrote:

Actually, the really good players do :-). Or at least, 90%

I see, so you know every codex inside out and every single piece of wargear?

YES, i do.

jy2 wrote:"Returning to position" is not enough. You need to be advancing to try to reach the objectives and that's not as easy as you think. It'll take more than 1-2 turns to cripple all the rhinos because you've got this huge, fast deathstar rapidly advancing towards you. Your first 1-2 turns will be in trying to deal with them before you even fire at the rhinos behind them (that's getting cover BTW from them or from smokes). Now you can feel free to ignore them and shoot at the rhinos first, but it'll be a big mistake to face them at full strength. And while you are dealing with the deathstar and transports, the experienced player (not necessarily Mercer's actual opponent) will be trying to take out your mobility as well with long fangs and approaching meltas.

Which is why i said deploying TWC behind the lines is a huge mistake. So what's the contention here ?

BUT, if I am able to target prioritise the rhinos first (because TWCs are deployed behind the lines), then i ll not worry about dealing with the deathstar at full strength because i can spend the next 1-3 turns firing with all i have (or all i have that are not death from shooting).

jy2 wrote:Don't get me wrong. You can still win by back-pedaling away from the enemy for a couple of turns. You're just making it much, much harder for yourself by doing so. You probably need to table the opponent or at least wipe out all his troops to do so from range and judging from all the grey hunters he's bringing, not going to happen with just shooting. The problem here is time. If you retreat for 1-2 turns so that you get more rounds of shooting at your opponent, it'll take you at least 1 turn to get back to your original position. That means it's at least Turn 3 before you're even heading towards your opponent's objective. During that time, if the opponent is at all experienced, he will be taking out some of your transports and more importantly, will have established Postional Dominance because he was advancing and is now holed up on the objectives and approaching yours to contest. Meanwhile, his objective is free from threat.

Negative. I DO NOT have to wipe him out with just shooting alone. Once his rhinos are taken out, and TWC weakened, the GK army will be in a position to assault the GHs in the open. I dont buy the positional dominance rubbish because it is not as if the GK army does not have the tools to assault the large squads of GH squads.

Issay, if you think I've given bad advice, then that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I however disagree. Doing what I suggested let those Thunderwolves live several turns longer. So far you have failed to convince me that things were done wrong and haven't provided any strong arguments to prove your point, so far I've just seen your opinion.

You say about target saturation, yet moving up the field together are four Rhinos carrying between them 40 Grey Hunters and also a Thunderwolf pack plus a Wolf-Lord. It doesn't matter what order these are in as there will be the same target saturation whether Wolves are at the front or at the rear. The benefit to having the Wolves are the front is they could reach combat possibly earlier, though any player who knows what beasts can do will deplete their numbers or kill them first. Btw, if you read the report you would know that half my psycannons were out of range of the Rhinos, that's why for the limited damage, plus you need a 2+ to wound Thunderwolves and any rendings will go straight through them (of course storm shields).

You mention about piecemeal several times, though you're using the wrong term .Piecemeal is when a army arrives in small chunks i.e reserves or attacking in waves. This army doesn't attack in waves. The Rhinos should move up 12" and pop smoke (though Shaun held them back to stay out of range) and then roll up next turn, bail out 40 Marines and unless melta, plasma, flamer and bolter death. The Thunderwolves then assault any exposed enemy units and polish them off. Nothing is been picked off piecemeal, as I mentioned, by your terms this is how 40k is played when units are took apart, this is in fact called target priority.

This is all I've got to say to you about this as we're going backwards and forwards. Clearly in the game the advice I given about Thunderwolves proved them to live longer. Thanks for your repeated comments, though unfortunately I don't agree with what you say.

Isseyfaran wrote:

jy2 wrote:"Returning to position" is not enough. You need to be advancing to try to reach the objectives and that's not as easy as you think. It'll take more than 1-2 turns to cripple all the rhinos because you've got this huge, fast deathstar rapidly advancing towards you. Your first 1-2 turns will be in trying to deal with them before you even fire at the rhinos behind them (that's getting cover BTW from them or from smokes). Now you can feel free to ignore them and shoot at the rhinos first, but it'll be a big mistake to face them at full strength. And while you are dealing with the deathstar and transports, the experienced player (not necessarily Mercer's actual opponent) will be trying to take out your mobility as well with long fangs and approaching meltas.

Which is why i said deploying TWC behind the lines is a huge mistake. So what's the contention here ?

BUT, if I am able to target prioritise the rhinos first (because TWCs are deployed behind the lines), then i ll not worry about dealing with the deathstar at full strength because i can spend the next 1-3 turns firing with all i have (or all i have that are not death from shooting).

jy2 wrote:Don't get me wrong. You can still win by back-pedaling away from the enemy for a couple of turns. You're just making it much, much harder for yourself by doing so. You probably need to table the opponent or at least wipe out all his troops to do so from range and judging from all the grey hunters he's bringing, not going to happen with just shooting. The problem here is time. If you retreat for 1-2 turns so that you get more rounds of shooting at your opponent, it'll take you at least 1 turn to get back to your original position. That means it's at least Turn 3 before you're even heading towards your opponent's objective. During that time, if the opponent is at all experienced, he will be taking out some of your transports and more importantly, will have established Postional Dominance because he was advancing and is now holed up on the objectives and approaching yours to contest. Meanwhile, his objective is free from threat.

Negative. I DO NOT have to wipe him out with just shooting alone. Once his rhinos are taken out, and TWC weakened, the GK army will be in a position to assault the GHs in the open. I dont buy the positional dominance rubbish because it is not as if the GK army does not have the tools to assault the large squads of GH squads.

I am not contending about deploying and playing the thunderwolves aggressively. What I am disagreeing with is with the strategy of the grey knights retreating and shooting.

It is not about whether you can wipe them out or not in assault. Positional dominance is about establishing good positions in an objectives game. Many people just under-estimate how important the Movement phase is. Unless your army has fast units (i.e. stormravens, interceptors, outflanking units, land speeders, vendettas, raiders/venoms, etc.), you cannot make a play for the enemy objective if you are moving away from it (i.e. backing up and shooting). And a Crowe-purifier build just does not have that type of mobility. It's basically a rhino-rush army and 12" is as far as it can go, assuming the rhinos don't get destroyed. Basically, it isn't a very fast army. The real issue here isn't really whether you can outshoot or outassault your opponent or not. It's actually time management. How much time would it take to shoot up your opponent and then lock yourself in combat with them and still have the time to try to get to his objective? By getting into favorable position, you are greatly increasing your chances of doing so.

Definitely Purifier spam needs to occupy the midfield to dominate.

jy2 wrote:It is not about whether you can wipe them out or not in assault. Positional dominance is about establishing good positions in an objectives game. Many people just under-estimate how important the Movement phase is. Unless your army has fast units (i.e. stormravens, interceptors, outflanking units, land speeders, vendettas, raiders/venoms, etc.), you cannot make a play for the enemy objective if you are moving away from it (i.e. backing up and shooting). And a Crowe-purifier build just does not have that type of mobility. It's basically a rhino-rush army and 12" is as far as it can go, assuming the rhinos don't get destroyed. Basically, it isn't a very fast army. The real issue here isn't really whether you can outshoot or outassault your opponent or not. It's actually time management. How much time would it take to shoot up your opponent and then lock yourself in combat with them and still have the time to try to get to his objective? By getting into favorable position, you are greatly increasing your chances of doing so.

There are only 3 obj in this case. The GK player only needs to grab the one 12 inch from his table edge, and another in the middle. It only takes 2 turns to more than enough cripple the 4 rhinos (assuming the GK player deploys properly to maximise his 24" threat range, and not deploy like what mercer did). You have another 3-5 turns to shoot, weaken, wipe remainings in assault, and grab the centre objective. Therefore, your argument of positional dominance is a moot point here. It is a general valid point, but not in this case.

mercer wrote:Issay, if you think I've given bad advice, then that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I however disagree. Doing what I suggested let those Thunderwolves live several turns longer. So far you have failed to convince me that things were done wrong and haven't provided any strong arguments to prove your point, so far I've just seen your opinion.

Yes, those are MY opinion. Since when did i say they were your opinion?

mercer wrote:You say about target saturation, yet moving up the field together are four Rhinos carrying between them 40 Grey Hunters and also a Thunderwolf pack plus a Wolf-Lord. It doesn't matter what order these are in as there will be the same target saturation whether Wolves are at the front or at the rear. The benefit to having the Wolves are the front is they could reach combat possibly earlier, though any player who knows what beasts can do will deplete their numbers or kill them first.

By placing the TWC behind, you are compromising on about 8 " of threat range. TWC needs to reach combat as soon as possible, and are useless otherwise. Also, TWC should be the target priority of the opponent because (1) they are much tougher than 4 rhinos, (2) because they are too slow, they pose very little threat if they are the lone surviving mobile element of the SW army (although the SW army is itself a very weak list). As illustrated, the game is over if all 4 rhinos is crippled (though this is due partly to the poor design of the SW list) in the very early stages of the game, with the TWC chasing down whatever it can one at a time.

mercer wrote:Btw, if you read the report you would know that half my psycannons were out of range of the Rhinos, that's why for the limited damage, plus you need a 2+ to wound Thunderwolves and any rendings will go straight through them (of course storm shields).

Yeah, of course storm shields, so rendings will not always go straight through them... What is your point dude? As for your story of being out of range, then the same will apply IF the TWC are deployed at the front, right?

Also, you being out of range is a result of your poor deployment and not properly assessing the threat range of your opponent and blindly hugging the edge. That way, you arent maximising your 24" firepower.

mercer wrote:You mention about piecemeal several times, though you're using the wrong term .Piecemeal is when a army arrives in small chunks i.e reserves or attacking in waves. This army doesn't attack in waves. The Rhinos should move up 12" and pop smoke (though Shaun held them back to stay out of range) and then roll up next turn, bail out 40 Marines and unless melta, plasma, flamer and bolter death. The Thunderwolves then assault any exposed enemy units and polish them off. Nothing is been picked off piecemeal, as I mentioned, by your terms this is how 40k is played when units are took apart, this is in fact called target priority.

It is piecemeal because the GK only has to focus all his firepower on the rhinos in the first 2 turns, WITHOUT having to worry about the TWC reaching them in the course of these 2 turns. This is the whole idea of piecemeal. It is analogous to what you have just mentioned about reserving, where the opponent only have to deal with whatever is on the board, and ignore anything that has not deepstruck yet.

mercer wrote:This is all I've got to say to you about this as we're going backwards and forwards. Clearly in the game the advice I given about Thunderwolves proved them to live longer. Thanks for your repeated comments, though unfortunately I don't agree with what you say.

Yeah, of course they lived longer, did anyone even contended that? Though their living longer didnt do the SW player any good.

Isseyfaran wrote:

jy2 wrote:It is not about whether you can wipe them out or not in assault. Positional dominance is about establishing good positions in an objectives game. Many people just under-estimate how important the Movement phase is. Unless your army has fast units (i.e. stormravens, interceptors, outflanking units, land speeders, vendettas, raiders/venoms, etc.), you cannot make a play for the enemy objective if you are moving away from it (i.e. backing up and shooting). And a Crowe-purifier build just does not have that type of mobility. It's basically a rhino-rush army and 12" is as far as it can go, assuming the rhinos don't get destroyed. Basically, it isn't a very fast army. The real issue here isn't really whether you can outshoot or outassault your opponent or not. It's actually time management. How much time would it take to shoot up your opponent and then lock yourself in combat with them and still have the time to try to get to his objective? By getting into favorable position, you are greatly increasing your chances of doing so.

There are only 3 obj in this case. The GK player only needs to grab the one 12 inch from his table edge, and another in the middle. It only takes 2 turns to more than enough cripple the 4 rhinos (assuming the GK player deploys properly to maximise his 24" threat range, and not deploy like what mercer did). You have another 3-5 turns to shoot, weaken, wipe remainings in assault, and grab the centre objective. Therefore, your argument of positional dominance is a moot point here. It is a general valid point, but not in this case.

Sure it does. Positioning applies in almost all objectives games. The only time it is not as important is if you are starting off with the majority of the objectives under your control already. Then you only need to defend.

Let's say the wolves are played by a more experienced general. First turn, he moves all his rhinos 12" and pop smoke on the front ones. He then destroys 1 rhino and shakes another one, which you fail to Fortitude off. So now you have 4 dreads and 10 psycannons to use (because Mercer decides to leave his purifiers inside the shaken rhino). Assuming he stands and fires psycannons at TWC and dreads at rhinos.

40 psycannon shots x 2/3 hit x 5/6 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 7.4 wounds, or 7W which he spreads among his TWC, maybe losing 1 or 2 wolves.

As for rhinos with cover, a psyfleman dread will:

4 shots x 8/9 hit x (1/6 glance x 1/6 immobilize + 1/2 pen x 1/2 immobilize or worse) x 1/2 fail cover = 50% to immobilize or worse

Thus, with cover, it'll take 2 dreads to disable 1 rhino. 4 will disable 2 rhinos.

Then next turn, SW should be able to reach the objective with 1 rhino followed by 20 grey hunters running towards it. They should be defending it by no more than Turn 3. Meanwhile, because we deployed the TWC aggressively in the front, they should be hitting the GK lines. And because they didn't move their rhinos, those rhinos are auto-hit (or if they moved their rhinos last turn, then the shots will be cut in half and it is only 3.7W inflicted on the TWC).

Now we've got a fight. Grey Hunters have destroyed probably 4 GK rhinos with 2 turns of fire and the TWC multi-charge. Turn 2 the GK's focuses on the wolfstar with both shooting and assault and finish them off. Grey hunters are relatively intact, though they lose their 3rd rhino.

Now it's Turn 3. SW has their objective and the middle objective. They send 2 units of GH's forwards to make a play on the GK objective. GK's now go after those hunters with shooting but are not in range to assault yet.

Turn 4, hunters advance and should be in melta/pistol range. Whether they assault on this turn or on the GK's turn, it should happen this turn. Long fangs/speeder continue to take out GK rhinos. On the GK's turn, assault is guaranteed. What isn't guaranteed is that the MSU purifiers will be able to take out those grey hunters. This is because only the halberd attacks first. The 2 hammers are attacking after the wolves attack, and there is no guarantee that they will survive.

Turn 5, assault is still going on. GK's may or may not reach the middle objective. They probably will. They may even get lucky and wipe out all 30 grey hunters for the win, but if you're talking average dice rolls, most likely the middle hunters will survive and it will be a draw.

But do you see the problem here? SW objective was never even threatened at all. Mainly, it was the GK's defending their objective, first from the TWC and then from grey hunters. By being passive and not making a play for the objectives, the GK's were actually battling from behind for most of the game. Their chances for a win was lower than their chances to draw or to lose. That's what I meant when I said that they would be playing for the DRAW or the LOSS. This is even more true if they were back-pedaling to try to get more shots at advancing SW.

My concept of Positional Dominance is definitely not "moot" in this case. It is something you always have to be aware of in an objectives game unless you actually start off with more objectives than your opponent. SW established good position (in my scenario) whereas the GK's had to fight back just to try to get the draw. SW had the advantage the whole game.

jy2 wrote:Let's say the wolves are played by a more experienced general. First turn, he moves all his rhinos 12" and pop smoke on the front ones. He then destroys 1 rhino and shakes another one, which you fail to Fortitude off.

Why should you assume that fortitude doesnt go off?

jy2 wrote:So now you have 4 dreads and 10 psycannons to use (because Mercer decides to leave his purifiers inside the shaken rhino). Assuming he stands and fires psycannons at TWC and dreads at rhinos.

Since you assume a more experience SW player, i m going to assume a more experience GK player, who will crippl the rhinos first.

I can now then ignore all your math because i wont even shoot at the TWC first. Now my math.

I don't understand why your argument is based on the fact that fortitude fails to go off (even when the chance is like 81.8%, but i ll live with it.

8 TL AC, 7.11 hits, 3.55 pens, 1.185 gl. That should give an average of 2 rhinos crippled (immob/wrecked/explode) after cover.

24 Psycannons, 16 hits, 5.33 pen results, 2.66 gl, another 2 rhinos crippled.
16 Psycannons, 6.666 hits, 3 unsaved wounds on TWC squad.

Now we have all GHs foot slogging, and TWC chasing down whatever it has range to.
Doesnt matter that the GHs footslog to secure the middle objective.

Also, i m not going to predict (like what you did, because i dun agree with your assessment, and you pretty much assume that the GK player is an idiot just to prove your point) what both players will do from this point onwards. The Long Fangs would most likely go for the rhinos, while the Psydreads and Psy cannons could possibly go for the LFs OR the TWC (so that the purifiers can go for the kill on the GHs early).

But just to show you the math, very GENERALLY.

48 Psy, 32 hits, 26.666 wounds, 8.888 unsaved wounds on TWC. These plus 3 wounds on turn 1, and Psy dread fire, should wipe out OR cripple the TWC significantly on turn 2.

The GK now has turn 3-5 turns to do what they want to the GHs. It doesnt matter that they secured the whole middle objective. Positional dominance here is immaterial.

OR, lets assume ALL the GK rhinos move, just to stay away from asasult from the TWC. So the kill only happens on turn 3.
The Gk still has 2-4 turns to wipe the 40 GHs in the middle with assault.

So what's the conclusion? You think positional dominance is important with your assessment, but the fact is that the problem lies with your target priority.

Isseyfaran wrote:

OR, lets assume ALL the GK rhinos move, just to stay away from asasult from the TWC. So the kill only happens on turn 3.
The Gk still has 2-4 turns to wipe the 40 GHs in the middle with assault.

So what's the conclusion? You think positional dominance is important with your assessment, but the fact is that the problem lies with your target priority.

From what I can tell your final scenario of having 2-4 turns to try and wipe 40 GH in the middle seems to be playing right into jy2 goal of pinning the GK on the defensive. If you have 2-4 turns just to wipe 40 GH I do not see how the GK can possibly threaten the SW objective...

A question for jy2, though, since you are an advocate for the idea of positional dominance, how would you play if you were GK in this game? From what I can tell in your more recent necron bat reps you play the necrons very aggressively to try put your opponents on the defensive, but in a game like this will you plow head first into an equally agressive SW army?

Finally to mercer: Thanks for posting bat reps. I find your batreps to be very entertaining and informative!

Cladmir wrote:From what I can tell your final scenario of having 2-4 turns to try and wipe 40 GH in the middle seems to be playing right into jy2 goal of pinning the GK on the defensive. If you have 2-4 turns just to wipe 40 GH I do not see how the GK can possibly threaten the SW objective...

What are you talking about??

(1) You HAVE 2-4 turns to deal with the GHs. But you don't even NEED 2-4turns.
(2) If you haven't realize, you only need to grab 2 out of the 3 obj to win the game. There is NO NEED to secure the obj on the SW's side, although i think it is possible too.

There is no point advancing yourself into the middle that early into the game and put yourself at risk of assault by the TWC, when you can wait a turn or 2 later and advance with full force (minus whatever destroyed by the LFs).

Cladmir wrote:

Finally to mercer: Thanks for posting bat reps. I find your batreps to be very entertaining and informative!

Thanks, dude