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OP- If you are playing at a FLGS, ask some of the locals/staff for help. Explain the situation, how your "friend" is a douchebag who likes to beat up 14 year olds in a game of plastic mangs. You'd be surprised at how much support you will get, as most adults are not fans of people who pick on 14 year olds Hell I'd lend you my army and sit by you and advise you for a game so your could wipe the floor with this guy. I'm sure there's someone around there that will help you in a similar fashion.

Jihallah wrote:Without wanting to actually offend, I will be quite blunt.

OP- You are a noob. sorry someone has to say it. I'm not having a go at you- anyone who doesn't recognize that they were a noob at some point is a blind idiot, so all we can do is try to teach you and impart our knowledge, so we can help you beat your "friend" (more on that later)

.......

aaaaand since you made a post that was nothing but that fairly irrelevant picture- I doubt you are a trapper, as you seem to be blindly stumbling into your "friend"s trap repeatedly!
Ho Ho Ho I couldn't help myself

1- I totally agree with almost every thing you are saying
2- i know im a noob i Started 1 year ago on the 23rd and i assumed it it was pretty obvious
3- also i did not want to come right out and say hes an A-hole because hes the guy who introduced me to the game and helped me build my army- before i ever played him-
4- i also later found out that he was trying to train for an 1850 tournament and i really dont think thats training
5- I posted the pic because i thought that the thread was dead and am actually glad to see its not
6- I have no clue how old he is all i can say is he is at least 30 and was in the marine corp
7- its not blindly if you see it




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jihallah- thanks but no hes a regular and i dont think they would see it that way

also he does give me tips in and out of our battles - hes only one of the people i play against
- about half of his tips are good and spectators have told me that so its not just my opinion and i dont always follow him and in the last game i played he won by only one killpoint

salamander117 wrote:
3- also i did not want to come right out and say hes an A-hole because hes the guy who introduced me to the game and helped me build my army- before i ever played him-
4- i also later found out that he was trying to train for an 1850 tournament and i really dont think thats training
5- I posted the pic because i thought that the thread was dead and am actually glad to see its not
6- I have no clue how old he is all i can say is he is at least 30 and was in the marine corp

He sounds like a charming individual. What a gakker. Go to a different store is the option here. If training for a tournament involves beating kids with stretched armies, I'd love to play in your area. I might end up with one of those ego stroking sig's "100-0-0 w/d/l" lol. Or maybe thats were that stuff comes from, the ex-marine who beat 14 year olds in tabletop

Seriously though, I'd find a new store, go back to the old one, tell them all they are a-holes for picking on a 14 year old and tell the manager you are taking your business elsewhere.

Sure a 14 year old ain't gonna spend much. In 5 years time if you stick to this hobby though... Knowing some hobby store staff/managers/owners even I am pretty aware that they need young fellas like you to survive economically. Tell the manager, tell the staff, tell all the young ones in your area what kind of 's hang at this place... and then go to a new one. The local players might be happy younger players are staying away, but it will drive management up the tree!

i live in a small town and the fact that i even have a store thats sells GW products is a mystery to me and the closest store is over an hour away

and the staff are pretty nice there i just dont want to start a big deal out of nothing considering i still enjoy games angainst other people

and also will my new devastaters make a dent in a necron army

------Also just turned 15 and am getting a job for summer so guess what im doing with 1st paycheck

Welcome to the world of plastic heroin.

I just sat down yesterday and realised after a bunch of eBay purchases I have almost all the models I want for my Space Wolves, Space Marines, and Empire armies. It's only taken 15 years and far more money than I like to think about. Just some more forgeworld weapons packs... and some demigryphs... maybe another steam tank... how about some flagellants or a Land Raider... Oh

Now to paint the damn things.

Codex Marines are regarded as mid tier at the moment while Chaos Marines are regarded as being on the weak side so in that match up you have a slight advantage just because of the army you play. However Necrons look to be top tier, maybe slightly behind the big three (Grey Knights, Imperial Guard and Space Wolves) but I don't think there's much in it.

Space Marines have to stick to their knitting, unfortunately to make a strong close combat element costs a lot in terms of money and points (Assault Terminators in a Crusader) so it's probably better to focus on shooting, using combat tactics to rabbit away from combat elements, and shooting again (at least against Chaos who do assault better, Necrons are slower than your models but still have some nasty melee elements and "I'll be back" is annoying).

A Librarian is an effective cheap HQ, and I prefer to take the nullzone and avenger psychic powers. A heavy flamer that roasts Space Marines is nice, and whilst you won't necessarily use nullzone against every army, when you find an army you need it against you'll really really need it.

Elites are generally used for aforementioned assault terminators, rifleman (dual autocannon) or multi-melta dreadnoughts (Black Reach dreadnoughts can still be picked up for very little money and there are people who make autocannon arms for them, bitspudlo for example). I also like a small Sternguard squad (easily made from plastic marines) with a Rhino for my Librarian to ride with. A heavy flamer here (incinerators are cheap on eBay because no Grey Knight player uses them) along with avenger gives you two heavy flamers to fire out the top hatch.

Troops are either two Tactical squads in Rhinos, or a Tactical squad in Rhino and a Scout squad led by Telion to sit on the home objective. How you equip the Tactical squads will be determined by how you intend to use them. I like the combi-melta, flamer, multi-melta configuration pill-boxed in their Rhinos in the mid-field to make it a place people are reluctant to drive tanks into. Others combat squad and leave a lascannon combat squad in cover while a melta/combi-melta team advance in the Rhino supporting the Sternguard. Since your Marines won't be winning much in the way of combat it's doubtful that a power fist is worth it in a Tactical squad.

I really like Land Speeder Typhoons in fast attack (though not having used mine in 5th due to having a pure bike army) as their range and mobility gives them the ability to deliver firepower to anywhere on the board you want to. Keep them away from enemy shooting and they'll be okay. Keep them individual as you don't want carry over shots killing them all in one round. Although I want to like assault squads and vanguard, one is inadequate in combat while the other is too expensive if you make it adequate in combat.

In heavy support I have heard good things about the thunderfire cannon (although it is expensive, and looking at it it can probably be classed as "tricky" to assemble). Predators are very cheap for the amount of fire they can put out from their armour 13 chassis. Devastators are slightly overpriced, but 4 rockets for 150 points hiding in cover isn't bad, it's just not as good as the Blood Angel equivalent.

If I were building a 1850 point army using Codex Space Marines it would look something like.

Librarian, avenger, nullzone
7 Sternguard, 6 combi-meltas, heavy flamer, Rhino
Dual autocannon dreadnought
Dual autocannon dreadnought

10 Tactical Marines, combi-melta, meltagun, lascannon, Rhino
10 Tactical Marines, combi-melta, meltagun, lascannon, Rhino
10 Scouts, sniper rifles, rocket launcher, Telion

Land Speeder Typhoon
Land Speeder Typhoon
Land Speeder Typhoon

Predator, heavy bolters
Predator, heavy bolters
5 Devastators, 4 rocket launchers

I make that 1850 points on the nose. Obviously you're not going to go out and buy a bunch of models, firstly it's a lot of money and then you see a sea of grey plastic every time you want to paint something. Believe me, that sucks. However having an army list you're building towards means that you won't go and buy things randomly. Take it from me, that sucks just as much.

For the Librarian I would get the Tigurius model. It's a nice Librarian model, and if you want to jump to 2000 points on the cheap simply playing him as the (slightly sucky) special character will get you there without having to paint a single model. I put the devastators in because I like devastators (even though they're not as good as Predators) and having a few more bodies around means the lascannon combat squads might live longer.

Small town woes D:!

Make the teams fair. Try scout w/ sniper rifles and camo cloaks are cheaper than SM and have the same save in cover. Use a rhino for cover if you don't use terrain. But yea, the game is being rigged.

i actually have tigirius because i thought he looked better than the other librarians

- thanks for the tips

Why Scout Snipers? Drop the lascannons for Missile Launchers, and you can get another tactical squad for the same points. (or pretty close, could drop the combi meltas on the squads, probably.)

You could, but I like Telion, and sniper scouts are okay, not great, but okay.

with snipers i can pin them and also quick question about telion

if i use telions BS skill for a scout do i still get eye of vengeance

Not that I know of, you just get the BS of 6.

No, you just get a BS of 6.

If the Scout handed Telion the Missile Launcher, sure, but since Telion helps the scout out instead of doing it himself, he just transfer the BS of 6 for that turn.

Still, can't complain about a hits on 2s with reroll of 6 on a scout missile.

darn

anyway, I made a new list today and i will be playing this weekend at 1450 pts

HQ
Chief librarian Tigurius

troops
Scoutsx5 with snipers camo cloaksx5 and a heavy bolter = 100

Tacx10 with flamer and heavy bolter = 170
W/ RHino - 35

Elites
Sterngaurdx9 with 7xCombi meltas and 2x Heavy Flamers = 280
W/ Rhino - 35

Terminatorsx5 With heavy flamer and chainfistx5 = 230

Dreadnoughtx1 with HF and HB = 120

Fast attack
LS with HB = 60

heavy
devastatorsx5 W/ 4 PC = 190



Librarian will be with sterngaurd

List looks okay. Good luck.

a MultiMelta would be better on the Dreadnought, and you are using an underslung Heavy Bolter on the Land Speeder? 2x Heavy Bolters? Since it's 50pts base, which means you are spending points on a Heavy Bolter. I'd suggest that, if you are a single Land Speeder, give it a typhoon launcher.

I'd give the Tactical Marines a Missile Launcher, as your list is also woefully lacking any longer ranged anti-tank.

Tigirius is an interesting choice, since a vanilla librarian is 100pts. If it floats your boat, though...

I prefer Missile Launchers on almost all of my troop choices.

Remember, Tigirius is deceptively fragile. for 230pts, you don't get an invulnerable save unless you use a psychic power. However, If he gets hooded, or even fails his psychic test, he'll be a ghost real quick.

Of course, I love melta Sternguard. The flamers are good to give them some dual purpose. Hellfire Rounds also work against everything that's not a tank, so embrace the suckers.

you should buy some high strength weapons to take out his larger models.


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You should buy some predators with magnetic weapons so you can change your tactics according to the game.

heavy bolters negate necron save and flamers protect the vehicles from scarabs

ML are 1 shot and enemys still get saves but a heavy bolter can negate saves

Tigirius is also in a rhino in the middle of the feild to negate phychic test and to make my terminators come in with gift of prescience
i also get all powers and i know i dont need them but it would be more to have a captain and an epistolary so its better to have him

and if i kill his troops he cant hold objectives

deepstrike termis and chainfists can eat a vehicle if the combi meltas die or are not in super-melta range

Looks good, good choice on no plasma pistolutt

thanks i just found out that i wont be playing this weekend so 1 more week till i can try it out

yeah i cant play because of a card release tournament or something

but necrons will feel my wrath in 2 weeks time

anyway, I made a new list today and i will be playing this weekend at 1450 pts

HQ
Chief librarian Tigurius

troops
Scoutsx5 with snipers camo cloaksx5 and a heavy bolter = 100

Tacx10 with flamer and heavy bolter = 170
W/ RHino - 35

Elites
Sterngaurdx9 with 7xCombi meltas and 2x Heavy Flamers = 280
W/ Rhino - 35

Terminatorsx5 With heavy flamer and chainfistx5 = 230

Dreadnoughtx1 with HF and HB = 120

Fast attack
LS with HB = 60

heavy
devastatorsx5 W/ 4 PC = 190



Librarian will be with sterngaurd

No wonder you are loosing.

You dont have the stuff to make a decent 1450 army so dont try, you´ll only loose again and again and that will sap the fun out of the hobby.


HQ:
Scrap tigurius, to fragile and to costly.
Use a bare 100p libby.
The powers to take are gate and null zone.
Gate since that will be the only thing making those sternguards earn back points as it allows them to keep a distance and always shoot without relying on a tin can transport that leaves them stranded if it goes boom.
Null zone is an excellent power good against many things.

The only time you are to use the avenger flame power is if the libby has a jump pack or any other means of as-guaranteed-as-possible mobility like a landraider or drop pod (neither of which your army is built to take advantage of anyway).

Troops:
Scouts - dont use them, you might as well give your opponent free points.
They cost pretty much as power armour marines but only get the 3++ save when in terrain and stationary and for what, to cause an enemy foot unit to take one armour save now and then?
There is a reason nobody ever takes scouts in competitive play since GW screwed their rules up to much.

Tac squad in rhino:
Better although still fragile like hell. Remember, tac squads are purely objective holders, they suck to much as melee units and they suck to much as shooty units, they take objectives and act as support for your real damage dealers.
Besides, NEVER EVER waste points on powerfists in tac squads. You are basically taking a super expensive weapon that will kill only 0.86 enemy model per turn if in melee and to support that the rest of the marines utterly suck in melee.
It´s as wise as giving a devastator seargent a powerfist, never equip squads for roles they are not geared to work well in.

What you want your tac to do is as mentioned, support by shooting, this means gear them up for one role that they will do good at rather then several they will be lame at, this way you will be able to rely more on that tac squad.

If you need tank killing power you need a meltagun and a combimelta for the seargent.
If horde killing then a flamer and combi flamer, both need mobility so the rhino needs its extra armour upping its cost.
For the heavy weapon get either a missile or a plasma cannon, both are very versatile in against-all environments where the ML will reach all those fast xenos banana boats and the PC will reach and scare Meq opponents.
Paying lots of points for a lascannon and then having 9 bolters stand and guard it as it fires on some tank is a complete waste of points and efficiency whereas if the heavy weapon is geared to work with the rest of the squads bolters you actually get better efficiency from the squad.


Elites:
Sternguards: same thing here, you equip them to do everything and they cost thereafter and no matter what they do they waste points not using all the rest of the gear.
Plus they rely on a paper thin transport or else they will just stand there and be charged to death.
Remember, if you need to pop armour or hordes with these guys they n e e d reliable mobility and accuracy meaning either a tough transport, many transports so they can ass up in another if their gets popped or some other kind of deep strike scatter proof, all of which are wasting efficiency due to lack of KISS.

Sterns are NEVER supposed to get close to a target nless you are 100% certain the target will be killed outright since even a surviving enemy berzerker means your expensive shooters are tied up in melee.
These guys are meant to kill monstrous creatures, lone HQs or heavily damage just about anything in rapid fire shooting range in cowork with another squad.
Meaning their bolters are enough for them to work wonders as long as they have mobility and close allies to handle counter charges etc.
Get them a few combimeltas just for targets of opportunity but that´s it.
What do you want to do with those heavy flamers for 35p a piece? Get close to some enemy foot squad and then fire the flamers wasting all those meltas and then get counter assaulted?
Or the opposite, shoot armour and then watch the 70p worth of heavy flamers do nothing?

Get 10 sternguards and a gating libby, jump, put 10-11 wounds on something with an infantry statline and gate away if needed. Rinse and repeat.


Terminators:
Why a heavy flamer? How on earth do you plan on actually getting that flamer into optimal flame range? Risking scatter (66% chance)? Walking to something hoping it will nicely oblige and stay waiting to be flamed?
Besides that HF will be used once in the entire game IF you are lucky and actually get in range to grill something.
Give them a cyclone or asscan, that way you´ll be earning bak points from turn one and have not to worry about getting in range.

Why 5 chainfists? Waste of points. What are you going to do, chase enemy armour on foot for six turns while stuff fires at you or hope enemy armour will nicely park itself right next to your termie squad and ask it to assault it...while toting that heavy flamer?

Again, keep it simple. 5 termies with something range shooty can protect the tac or sterns from lighter counterassaults and still kill armour or hordes and all of a sudden you have a clear cut squad with no excess fat and a clear purpose to it.


Dreadnought:
Geez, you pay 120p for a walking tin can (av12 will last maybe a whole turn if the opponent wants it dead) in order to get 3 HB shots of?
That HF will never reach a target due to lack of mobility or if it will those will be enemy melee specialists that dont care about a flamer and that can kill your dread in CC with ease.
HF and MM with a drop pod is the way to use SM dreads, that or a terrain hidden las/ml configuration.

At least give the dread a lascannon and ML so it can kill things from afar from turn one.


Fast attack:
Speeder with a HB?
No use, to fragile and costly for the measly things it can kill in return.
Either use the speeder as a mobile tank hunter with a MM or add variation to it with a MM and HF so it can react to sudden enemy infantry closing in.
Or use it as a hidden firebase with typhoon missiles or a HB-asscan configuration. Expensive and fragile so needs to be hidden but can dish out much damage at range, terrain dependent though.
I would use it as a MM tankhunter to crack open melee transports so the rest of your army gets time to shoot them.


Heavy:
Devs with 4PC.
Very terrain dependent, needs to stay as far back as possible and has no casulty soakers. Also work best if you have many transports in your army as tankshocking makes enemies clusterf*ck and PC templates love that.
See if you can put some bolter marines to soak up damage in that squad.



If you face khorne a lot then:
Redo the army into something that looks more like this:
HQ:
Libby, gate, null zone.

Troops:
Tac, flamer, combiflamer, PC.
Rhino with EA.

Tac, melta, cm, ML
Rhino with EA

Elites:
10 sternguards, 5 cm.

Terminators (5), fists.
Cyclone launcher.

Dreadnought, twin las, ML.

Fast:
Landspeeder, MM, HF.

Heavy:
10 devs, 2 PC, 2 ML. (combat squad then, half pop transports, half pop infantry).




If you face transports like a landraider use the speeder and combat squad the melta tac and put 5 marines with the melta and combimelta and intercept the LR with those and the speeder (las dread will help out here), if you are good you dont even need to unass your melta combat squad from its rhino to shoot so wont have to sacrafice them.

The rest is pretty simple.

Er, Missile Launchers are AP3, meaning they'll penetrate everything up to Necron Lords, and cause instant death. Heavy Bolters get 3 shots, ignore the saves on Warriors and such, but... still won't scare lords that much. And, if he's using vehicles, a Heavy Bolter won't do much more than patter uselessly off the armor, since Necron Vehciles are AV13 until a shot gets through.

You can also use Missile Launchers as Frag, and cause multiple wounds, since Scarabs are vulnerable to blasts. If you position the frag missile properly, you can cause 4-6 wounds on a swarm of scarabs, and 1/3 of scatter rolls are negated due to BS, and 1/3 of rolls on the Scatter die land on direct hits, giving you a decent chance to land on top of the scarab swarm most of the time. Some scatter on swarms can actually be good, landing between them and it may even hit more than you would having to put the hole on top of a base.

I never support giving Tactical Squads Flamers, though, unless you absolutely need 5pts for whatever reason. If your tactical squads are close enough to get a use for flamers, things have gone wrong.

a ML is ap 6 so a necron may not go down where as if i get 3 hits from a HB and 3 wounds with a tac in a rhinos i just killed 1/3 of a squad

...what?

its like it says
- however poorly written sorry

If your gonna take Termies, I'd recomend x5 TH/SS Termies.

A Krak Missile is AP3.

Frag Missiles are AP 6, but, if he's tightly packed, it's still a bunch of wounds.

The only terminators that are worth their points atm are TH/SS. S8 and cause crew shaken in addition to whatever you do.

Heavy Bolters, on average, are going to miss 1/3 of their shots. And, after that, they are going to miss 1/3 of the wounds. So, you'll get about 1.5~ wounds on necrons. And then he can get back up on a 5+.

Krak Missiles can go up against tanks, as well as either fire the same type of missile to ID anything at T4 (with AP3), or a Frag Missile if they are clumped up.

Space marines excell at doing a firepower army. Now with additional dollars, I would go with a boat load of combi-melta armed sternguard and run razorback spam. But lets get real.

1. Librarian: 100 pts and a good option to control any enemy psykers. As far as a power I would suggest the one that makes him reroll invulnerable saves.
2. 1 Tactical squad in a rhino for every 1500 points. You could go with something different but this provides a good basis for your army.
3. To maximize firepower go sternguard and devastators. Devs are not the best but they are a cheap way to add firepower.
4. A counterattack unit. Assault termies are good but lack mobility without a landraider. As a backup, I always like the trusty chaplain with a jump pack and some assault marines or better yet vangard vets. These give you the speed you need.
5. Speed is a great benefit to marines, that is why I like landspeeders but assault bikes can do the same. They have the plus and minus that they can get stuck in CC but that is not bad.
6. Predators or Vindicators. These are good but 1 is pretty weak. You need multiples - 2 or 3 to get the effect.
7. If you want to go with sternguard, think about talking Dorn. He makes them scoring and then you take 3 of them.


So approximately:

Librarian 100
Chaplain with Jump Pack 120

7 Sternguard with 2 plasma cannons in Rhino 245
7 Sternguard with 2 plasma cannons in Rhino 245

10 Tacs with ML and Melta in Rhino 205
10 Tacs with ML and Melta in Rhino 205
10 Tacs with ML and Melta in Rhino 205

7 Assault Marines - Sgt with PF 190
1 Landspeeder Typhoon 90

10 Devastators 3 ML & 1 Lascannon 265

Now I don't have the codex in front of me, so the points are approximate.

The devastators split into a combat squads with the Sgt staying with the lascannon.
If you can't afford them skip the rhinos for the sternguard. They want to be set up and firing also. They are your anti-marine firepower.
The chaplain and assault marines stay protected behind your rhinos and only come out when you need to blunt their big attack.
The tacs can stay in the rhino and fire the melta gun and missile launcher if they didn't move.

This gives you 8 Krak missiles, 2 lascannons and 4 plasma cannons. This should be sufficient to down anything that a CSM sends at you.
Now I know this requires some purchases from you so take it or leave it but this is optimal firepower based marines on the cheap. If 1850 is too ambitious, you can drop the sternguard then add the 3 missing assault marines.

So if I am right, we are talking 2 boxes of devastators, 1 box of tactical marines, 2 boxes of assault marines and a chaplain.

If you want to contain the costs, lose the assault marines and chaplain and keep your assault termies. Less speed but still effective counter attack.

Good luck!!!

All these lists are great but remember, he's running what he has and playing on a budget.

I'm sure Sal will get more models as time goes by, so I suggest advice on models to get at a later date along with advice for how to use the army he has now.

It would help with knowing what list he runs, if he is running CSM list 2x princes with lash, 9 oblits, and plaugemarines, you're gonna have a hard time no matter what you field.

The models you listed initially only accounts for about 1000-1100p without upgrades.
With a few upgrades, you could field a 1200p army:

Total Roster Cost: 1200

HQ: Space Marine Captain in Power Armour (1#, 155 pts)
1 Space Marine Captain in Power Armour, Relic Blade, Artificer armor, digital weapons

HQ: Space Marine Librarian in Power Armour (1#, 100 pts)
1 Space Marine Librarian in Power Armour, NullZone & Gate of Infinity

Elite: Terminator Assault Squad (5#, 200 pts)
5 Terminator Assault Squad, 3 TH/SS, 2x LC

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 210 pts)
9 Tactical Squad,
1 Sergeant, Melta Bombs
1 Rhino

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 210 pts)
9 Tactical Squad,
1 Sergeant, Melta Bombs
1 Rhino

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 90 pts)
1 Land Speeder Squadron, HB & Typhoon Missile Launcher

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 115 pts)
1 Dreadnough, MM & HF

Troops: Scout Squad (5#, 120 pts)
4 Scout Squad, 3x snipers Camo Cloaks Heavy Bolter w/Hellfire Shells
1 Sergeant, Melta Bombs, sniper rifle, teleport homer


There are some points on upgrades here that could be spent different. (65p to be exact; digital weapons and artificer armor on captain, meltabombs throught the squads, the teleport homer and the HF on the dreadnought)

In conclusion, if he does not agree to play with you at lets say 1100 or 1200p, he is a douche, and not a good friend. And you should tell him so. If he still persists on only playing 1500p let him go back on giving you his SM models if you win, unless you can find someone else to play. But you get to name him king of the douches, and use his honorary title the Douchness in every conversation for a year.