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I play space marines and i have a buddy i play with usually once a week and i have lost so many times that he is telling me that if i win i get his old SM models.

I play 15-1600 comfortably stretched and he keeps setting the points higher than i can field. I know he does it to keep his models and i dont really care i just want to beat him.

He plays Chaos Space Marines or Necrons.

My list is 2 tacticals W/ rhinos, A dread, A captain, Land speeder, and chief librarian, also scouts and terminators with magnetic arms to switch between assualt and normal which i forgot

He also likes to use Kharne

Better lists and advice would help

Stop letting him stretch your army. If its too high above the models you have then you have to start buying lots of useless/inefficient upgrades to meet the points limit. It looks like you have models for a 1k army, so try playing at that level and see what happens.

almost no one at my club plays that low or hardly comes in

salamander117 wrote:almost no one at my club plays that low or hardly comes in

I find that odd.. But I can appreciate the lack of a specific type of game. You should tell your buddy you want to play that low a point set (which I think is a middle tier point limit. From my understanding it's 500-999 is low points. 1000-1500 is mid tier and 1501->2k is higher tier. I don't usually see tournaments not in that area. )

Back on track.. You need to either pick up more models, or play within your budget. As a space marine player I put out as many bodies as I can. If I have Tanks, I gear them very lightly. A lascannon, or A gun. I don't put 10 upgrades on them. Since you're playing a higher amount, I'd be careful with it. It'd help if we could know what you have or willing to get. Additionally, some options are just naturally god options and some are just circumstantial. If he's fielding light armor of course MLs are fantastic. If he fields lots of infantry its still good. I think a Codex Marine librarian is okay, although he's really hard to pick out abilities. Epistolary wouldn't be a bad upgrade for him. If you don't like Librarians, I suppose Captain would be a good choice. Chapter Master is an alright upgrade if you really are lacking good choices to spend points on. Frankly I LOVE auxillery Grenade launcher..and I would absolutely run that on him if you get the chance. It fires a shot in addition to your pistol round, either template (good against T3 things...maybe scarabs in your case) or a krak grenade that packs a punch. HQs are your best assaulting unit in that army and Necrons (in most cases) fold like paper in assault. There are some REALLY strong Necron units that fight in assault now.. not necessarily because of their stats but more because of what they can do. Warscythes will eat you up. In the case of necrons try to take the Librarian and use shooting powers. Force dome can be good to keep you and your squad alive.

If you are going to kit out models.. don't spend a bunch of points to kit out one specific model. Don't chuck 250 pts onto your HQ unit. It's a TRAP!!! If you kit out your units because you don't have enough bodies, do upgrades on different models in the squad. for tactical marines you can exchange flamer for something, or the H.Weapon for something. Power fist on the sergeant or some other upgrade. Don't spend points to kit out your sergeant with "plasma pistol, powerfist melta bombs etc" sgt. You don't want to have a huge point sink in models. # of bodies > how much cool gear they can get.

General tactics: Combat squads are a rough choice. On one hand you get more options in a turn. Your Heavy weapons can fire freely, while your sergeant and close range guns get to capture objectives or assault. The bad side is the fact that they give separate killpoints and pretty easily killed. Instead of your Special weapon, sgt, and heavy weapon getting 3 wounds a piece (because of 10 bodies) you give them 2 (roughly) with one getting 5.

Vindicators should be good against Necrons AND chaos. Don't get into assault with Kharn. Just try to pop shots and kill him off early. Bolter fire kills elite units. I don't like shooting one big shot that has a high probability to kill one model a round...I don't kill terminators with lascannon shots. I kill them with bolter fire. Because if you make the opponent roll 24 saves, odds are 6 will be 1's. Now its hard to get that many.. but that's the mentality in which I think. I prefer Frag missiles against power armor than one krak missile. Sure I hit one guy pretty hard, but on that off cover save chance or that off invuln save. Or hell.. maybe I do kill that one model. There is still more coming at me. Frag missiles give you the CHANCE for more hits and wounds. I like MLs because they have versatility.

If you're using combat tactics..remember you get that morale save if you suffer 25% casualty in any round. Shooting pistols at you are not a good thing if Kharn intends to assault you. squad of 5 guys and you remove 2 models of your own from shooting...opt to fail that morale save on purpose. That way you get a fall back move to avoid getting assaulted. You will regroup if they aren't in range of you the next turn. In assault if you lose but still have surviving models, fail the morale save and run. If they catch you trying to sweeping advance your guys because fearless anyway as they suffer from No Retreat! If they can't sweep you then you should have no problem trying to run away.

If you insist on playing rules that are stacked against you, prepare to lose.

I'd suggest that those rules are exacerbating inexperienced generalship and your list , not being optimised, is being taken apart piecemeal. Forcing you to play at a higher point level to further break your list (wasting points on expensive HQ options) makes this lack of optimisation even worse.

So either 1) buy more of the right models
2) play at a lower point level


If you insist on playing at that point level, remember it is your choice to give your opponent a massive handicap where everything is stacked in their favour. If you call that fun, all the more power to you, but don't expect to win

I'd say get a Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer. That's like 240 points there. Then run the captain as Vulcan, twin-linking flamers and melta and mastercrafting the Thunder Hammers on your Terminators. Throw them in the Land Raider with Vulcan and maybe the Librarian.

Run flamers/meltaguns and a multi-melta on your Tac squads. Or on anything that can take it. If it's not a big deal to you or whoever you're playing, make a solo cup Drop Pod and drop a Dreadnought with the Multi-Melta/ Heavy Flamer set up. This works nice in groups of 2.

All the melta shots are good for throwing at Kharn, since he doesn't have Eternal Warrior.

Most of what your saying i have tried
- i do assault necrons but i get shot to hell after consolidation
- I use meltas almost exclusively but not with vulkan because i cant use proxys
- my librarian is in a tac squad and casts force dom almost every turn
- with his chaos he has a predator to level my rhinos first turn and chosen with 4 plasma weapons to finish the squad
- if i actually pop kharnes rhino he stays in cover not moving and only goes to ground while moving me with lash of submission
- his sorceror has Ld 10 just like librarian so he has an equal ground with psyhcic hood
- solor pulses keep lascannons from hitting
- scarabs eat my rhinos or troops before or after an anilation barge pops it
- i roll like ork save throws(fail A LOT)
- sarges dont really have that much just a power wep. and combi melta same with cap. cept he has artificer armor

Something simple you could buy that might help you out is a drop pod for your dread. Nothing messes up a predator like a multi-melta in the rear on turn one. Locator beacons on the scouts could help you deep strike your termies into perfect position. Try running your captain with a relic blade instead of power weapon, relics blades are great because they boost his strength without lowering initiative. Running one of your tactical squads as sternguard veterans can really help you tear through a good deal of his infantry. Scarabs have a bad armor save and aren't fearless, so a frag missile could potentially make them run away. Your termies should have cyclone missile launchers against both lists.

do you hear the voices to wrote:Something simple you could buy that might help you out is a drop pod for your dread.

I can vouch for this. Back when I used to play, I ran 3 dreadnoughts in drop pods, with flamers and multi-meltas. Thanks to the drop pod assault rules, my opponent usually had to deal with an Ironclad and a regular dreadnought romping around in his backfield, with a third dreadnought on the way. AV 12 can be surprisingly resilient.

Of course, I also used Vulkan, and had multiple landspeeders also equipped with heavy flamers/multi-meltas. When it came to 'army theme songs', 'Disco Inferno' was my choice.

Just outshoot him. Put lascannons on the rhinos, lascannons or missile launchers in the tacticals, autocannons on the dread and a typhoon launcher on the speeder. You're playing into his hands if you're moving up against CSM as your guys are better at shooting and his are better at fighting. If chief librarian means you're taking tigurius, use him as a regular librarian. He's pants.

Put the termies in front of your vehicles to get cover, make him have to overextend to lash them. Unless he's got at least 2x2 oblits there's not much he can do.

Edit: Can't comment on necrons cuz I haven't played em.

the last 3 comments are pretty good
probly gonna use a drop pod

also if he has first turn heavys usually die because He targets them

making you stretch your army is just evil, suggest a game 1250pts, that is what the tourneys I go to use the most and it is a great point limit. He sounds like is just stacking the game in his favor.

A note on Vulcan: You don't need the actual model. The Codex states (pg127) that the special charters can be used to represent charters form other chapters. So if you have a Captain with an ornate weapon, a flamer thrower and pay the points for Vulcan, you have Vulcan, no proxy required.

If I may make a suggestion, at that points lvl take a Librarian in terminator armour (if you can) w avenger and null zone. It will make wraiths MUCH less effective and allow you to BBQ just about any unit in either codex CSM or necrons. ( To ensure you are getting the most out of your shooting, remember that scarabs take double wounds from blasts and templates due to swarm rule)

Another useful way to build is to take an epistolary (in power armor) w MOTA and avenger. As an epistolary you will have 4 attacks on the charge at WS5, you will be str 6 (if you cast Might of the Ancients), and STILL have the ability to make one of the wounds you deal, cause ID.

And dont forget that you will most likely need that Force hood to shut down the CSM psychic powers (from Daemon Princes or Sorcerers.

He doesn't use wraiths and wit chief I have all powers and can use 3 a turn so why would Tactical dreadnought librarian be better

Also what codex because I've read the whole thing like 3 times and can't recall that

I should also say that I'm 14 and can not get a work permit till 15 so buying models is tough, both my rhinos I got second hand in pretty good condition for 10 dollars

I think that the cyclone ML could work though

I think my next buy will be devastaters for the heavy support and cover fire

I advise against the devastators, you don't really see them in competitive lists and most people will tell you they aren't worth their points. A Land Speeder would be my next buy. If you can build it to be able to switch between a typhoon(Missile launcher) and one with Heavy Flamer and Multi-Melta you will be in the clear. Both builds get a very high success rate. Drop Pods would also be great. One for the dreadnaught and one for the sternguard veterans.

Sternguard veterans are debatably the best elite choice in the SM codex. With their special issue ammunition, the can have ap3 bolters, ap4 bolters that fire 30 inches, bolters that ignore cover, and even bolters that wound ANYTHING on a 2+. The look on a MEQ players face when his marines aren't getting armor saves from your bolters is priceless haha

i have some scrap models laying around is there any way of making a coverted sternguard because they look like marines with white helmets

Well sternguards look exactly like regular marines, just with some extra bits and a more distinguished paint job. Give them a purity seal or two and boom. You got yourself some sternguard. Generally every chapter has a special color identification for their veterans.

Here's a list a cobbled together based on what you said you had. It's not great, and you'd need a few more purchases to hit it, but I could see this list doing pretty well in a non tournament setting.

1500/1500

HQ-230
Captain-130
Relic Blade
Librarian-100
Gate of Infinity, The Avenger

Elites-665
5 Terminators-230
Cyclone Missile Launcher
9 Sternguard Veterans-285
2 Combi-Meltas, Rhino, Extra Armor
Dreadnaught-160
Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod, Locator Beacon

Troops-425
10 Tactical Marines-260
Meltagun, LasCannon, Powerfist, Rhino, Teleport Homer
10 Scouts-165
Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Locator Beacon

Fast Attack-180
Land Speeder Typhoon-90
Typhoon Missile Launcher
Land Speeder Typhoon-90
Typhoon Missile Launcher

The librarian goes with the vets. Combat squad the tactical marines, put the sarg with the fist in the rhino and move him up with the captain. The termies deep strike perfectly around one of the many teleport homers or locator beacons. The scouts give any infantry hell with their snipers. and the typhoons lay waste to his armor. The dreadnaught will come in first turn and wreck something. Make sure the lascannon combat squad is in decent cover. He'll have a lot to split fire on so you should always have something to pound him with.

At 1500 this list will struggle with objective games but you will have a decent shot at kill points.

i would really only have to buy a LS and a box of scouts if i convert to sterngaurd but would the lib have those 2 powers and not MOTA or smite

well Might of the ancients is a great melee power, but your librarian doesn't really belong in melee. He can be targeted directly there and with only 2 wounds he isn't that tough. You wouldn't want a power fist to one hit him. The avenger is a REALLY good contingency plan. If you find yourself too close to kharne and his berzerkers a full salvo of vengeance rounds and the avenger should decimate the squad. Gate of infinity is one of the favorite powers available. With it you never have to worry about not being next to the target you want to shoot. Smite is a pretty bad power because you still have to hit after you pass your psychic test. The avenger on the other hand auto hits everything under the template. If you don't like the avenger, machine curse could also be helpful. The squad he's in doesn't have TOO much in the way of anti tank, and if you find yourself up against a landraider of monolith a free glancing hit could do wonders for you. Keep in mind that your sniper rifles are rending and always wound on a 4+ they're great for taking out daemon princes.
Your captain and p-fist sergeant should do very well against most enemies. They won't really be able to stand up to khorne berzerkers but they'll carve through a good deal MEQ.
The sternguard are really your lynchpin here. Make sure they are always protected. Once your opponent realizes how effective they are, i imagine they will be his primary target. While he is focusing fire on that, the rest of your army will get to light him up. If you could post the lists he uses, i coud give you more specific advice.

1st he doesent use berzerkers- says their crap

2nd thanks for explaining the reason behind the powers maske more sense and helps alot

3rd he dosnt run monolithe because he also hates them

salamander117 wrote:1st he doesent use berzerkers- says their crap

2nd thanks for explaining the reason behind the powers maske more sense and helps alot

3rd he dosnt run monolithe because he also hates them

Sounds like your opponent knows what he is talking about. Most people on here tend to think of chaos in terms of what used to be good, or think that glorified marines in CC are scary.

The powers that librarians have can be classified in 3 categories: 1: always take this power for this build. 2: your second power 3: crap you shouldn't ever take.

Null zone for most libbys is #1. For null zone libbys avenger is pretty much always #2, though a termie libarian with storm shield can take Might of the ancients. For tricky librarians Gateway is number 1, his second power depends on if he is a termie librarian. A termie librarian can take vortex, a regular should probably stick to avenger or null zone. Machine curse is pretty terrible, as is smiting. Category 3 for both of them.

Monoliths were bad before the new book. They didn't get better, in fact they got worse.

salamander117 wrote:He doesn't use wraiths and wit chief I have all powers and can use 3 a turn so why would Tactical dreadnought librarian be better

Also what codex because I've read the whole thing like 3 times and can't recall that

I should also say that I'm 14 and can not get a work permit till 15 so buying models is tough, both my rhinos I got second hand in pretty good condition for 10 dollars

I think that the cyclone ML could work though

I think my next buy will be devastaters for the heavy support and cover fire

Cheaper, does all you need it to, at that points lvl you dont need 3 powers a turn, one will do you just fine. It just matters if you want a str 6 4 attack guy, or a flamestorm cannon wielding guy w TDA OR since you get two powers anyway, give him BOTH powers and then you have the ability to pick how you want your libby to behave in a given turn. If you want to spend a FEW more points, go ahead and give him the epistolary upgrade. Do that and you have an incredibly versitle HQ who can REALLY dish out the pain. (a few points more and you can give him a storm shield to add survivability although at the cost of an attack.
And if he doesnt use wriaths then you REALLY get to have fun with him as he is incredibly unlikely to have a good counter to a stiff assault unit that can hit him with a str 5 ap 3 flame template before charging in and wrecking face

Firstly this isn't a game of keep the loosers army.

Second 1500pts is reasonable. Agree before hand. A thinned out army is no-good. If you have a good 1000pts then play at 1000pts. Anyone who says that they cannot play at 1000pts isn't creative or has gotten hung up on some unit they 'have' to take.

No zerkers or monolith? So he uses plague marines, oblits, and daemon princes for his chaos?
Immortals, annihilation barges, and scarabs with his necrons?

necron correct chaos not so much

he uses chosen and normal marines with cc weapons, a sorcerer and a predator

do you hear the voices to wrote:No zerkers or monolith? So he uses plague marines, oblits, and daemon princes for his chaos?
Immortals, annihilation barges, and scarabs with his necrons?

If thats the case, get some lascannons in your list, turn one, focus every single lascannon you can into one of his obliterator squads. You should hit with 2/3 of your lascannon shots, wound with 5/6th of those and he will fail 1/2 of the wounds. Meaning that many dead obliterators. It will make him jumpy, and can make him get squirly with his obliterators seeing them get smashed at, allowing you to move HIM to your advantage

Without wanting to actually offend, I will be quite blunt.

OP- You are a noob. sorry someone has to say it. I'm not having a go at you- anyone who doesn't recognize that they were a noob at some point is a blind idiot, so all we can do is try to teach you and impart our knowledge, so we can help you beat your "friend" (more on that later)

So lets start with this- I have a 1500p chaos army. Its really fine tuned, runs beautifully My mate wants to play with his guard army, but his army is 2500p So I tell him I'll add some extra gear to my army to bump it up!
Now, I could spend those points on things like daemonic possession for my vehicles, or fancy daemon weapons/powers for my HQ's, make all of my terminators champions etc... OR I could add 3 dreadnoughts and 3 raptors squads. Or bike squads. I could add 2-3 more troop choices, and CSM troop choices are pretty darn solid! I could spend those points on 9 obliterator's and still have points for a rhino mounted CSM squad and a dreadnought.
What I'm trying to say is, I could spend 1000p on so many things, so many more units.... or i could make all of my terminators get +1 attack and all of my vehicles ignore rolls of 1 or 2 on the damage chart. I am MUCH more likely to 1) achieve victory and, most importantly, 2) Have fun if I add a whole bunch of extra units into the game. 9 extra lascannons/plasmacannons/multimelta's/flamethrowers, more troops for objectives, and a dreadnought, or bells and whistles on my units. Which would YOU prefer?
This is a common 40k school of thought- I could get a model and buy lots of upgrades for him, is it worth it?
I have a rock, and I can make it a really really big hard rock, and it will shatter any scissors that come near it, but one measly scrap of paper is still going to trash my enormous rock. So why pay to make your rock enormous, when it already smashes scissors? I could use that money to buy a pair of scissors to protect my rock from papers?

So by stretching your armies points out like this, your "friend" is rigging the game so you will lose every time. He might be doing it "just to keep his models" from your point of view, and that may be true. But as a third party observer, I must say your friend is literally dangling a $100 bill in front of your face, and when you go to grab it he either pulls it away so you can't grab it or he pushes you face down into the dirt and laughs. Your "buddy" is rigging the game in his favor, and you won't beat him unless he stops rigging the games OR you have a beautiful streak of luck to match his horribly unlucky dice rolls. How old is your "friend"? I ask because you mentioned you were 14, and he has 3 armies (old SM army, necrons and CSM...), and again don't take offense here but teenagers don't have enough cash to put together a large army, let alone 3


aaaaand since you made a post that was nothing but that fairly irrelevant picture- I doubt you are a trapper, as you seem to be blindly stumbling into your "friend"s trap repeatedly!
Ho Ho Ho I couldn't help myself



This being-
The art of disembarking
The passive aggressive assault
Deployment tactics
The way of the water warrior
Also, you'll notice 2 of those are by Space curves. His tactics articles are pretty good, I would recommend googling him. Here's a link for you

Jihallah wrote:Without wanting to actually offend, I will be quite blunt.
....
So by stretching your armies points out like this, your "friend" is rigging the game so you will lose every time. ... Your "buddy" is rigging the game in his favor, and you won't beat him unless he stops rigging the games OR you have a beautiful streak of luck to match his horribly unlucky dice rolls.

Quoted For Truth

Playing in games where the odds are stacked against you, expect to lose. You are more likely to lose than to win. Sometimes winning is close to statistically impossible.

Accept that.

A nice little change of pace. Since you have a scout squad, use it for your troop choice. Use one squad of basic marines as sternguard (basic model can be used, forget the expensive fine cast ones). That gets you around the proxy rule. Hellfire rounds tear up basic marine saves. Add a few extra meltas, kharn's squad will melt to the rate of fire.

Scouts rending ability tends to be very useful against rhino and troops, and monstrous ceatures, cheap squad. Always outflank the speeder, just causes havoc. Drop pod the dreadnought, A basic dread with drop pod is 140pts (if you have to use white foam board and scratch build one).

Use a few things just to throw him off, and take focus off your troops.