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GreatGunz wrote:
Titans don't make any sense as weapon systems, for the same reason they work so well in 40k: because they're big. In the game, big is good, but in the modern military, big just means you're a big target.

With our current technology they don't make any sense as weapon systems (mainly because we can't build them, and even if we could, we couldn't armour them sufficiently). Assuming that technology will continue along the same trends as it currently is rather narrrow-minded in my opinion. We're unlikely to have already reached the pinnacle of warfare.

A titan is pretty small. It could probably take out a few hundred acres of farmland but nothing like large enough to be noticable.

Tadashi wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:

Alexzandvar wrote:Emperor or Warlord Titan be able to destroy before we took it down? As in Cities Within the United States, or if you think it would be able to destroy all of those and move on to other countries.

None. We'd hit it with a tactical nuke and it would be adios muchachos.
Titans don't make any sense as weapon systems, for the same reason they work so well in 40k: because they're big. In the game, big is good, but in the modern military, big just means you're a big target.

No, it won't! The shields will hold against tactical rounds.

Do you have any idea how many guided missiles the United States has? Anway nothing above ground "holds" when you drop a small sun on it. The destructive power of nuclear weapons is truly awesome.

And even if it doesn't how will you handle the explosion of the plasma reactors?

The same way you handle any nuclear event. Evacuate as many people as possible beforehand, and send in the hazmat teams afterwords. Really, we train for this stuff.

This is an Emperor/Warlord-class we're talking about...those reactors will be massive, and filled to full capacity in battle with superheated and potentially radioactive plasma. If it goes off, it'll make Tsar Bomba look like Hiroshima. In 40k that's nothing, in our world, that's catastrophic.

I think you're overestimating the power of this machine. It's a big robot, not the death star. We have skyscrapers that are bigger than warlord titans.

Joey wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Joey wrote:Pretty sure a nuke would vaporise it. So, none.

No, it won't. You'll just make it worse by 'igniting' the Titan's plasma reactors. You'll vent volatile (and potentially radioactive) plasma over a large area. If it goes up in the middle of a large area of farmland or pasture like the Mid-West (pardon me if I'm wrong, not from the US) it would pretty much shatter the US economy, not to mention set off the biggest environmental/humanitarian crisis in history.

Wait, what? How would it "ignite" the plasma? In fact while we're at it, why, in the 41st millenium, are safety standards for nuclear processes at a sub-Chernobyl level?
And if titans can blow up and wreck an entire planet, why are they used at all?

If you breach the reactors' containment, the plasma will 'ignite' the surrounding atmosphere/matter. And go read up on the traditions of the Adeptus Mechanicus regarding sub-standard safety regulations, and Imperial customs and views on individual life while you're at it. And Titans are used because :"...Titans are god-machines, meant to smash enemy formations and destroy fortifications...the Titan Legions stand alongside the Space Marines as twin symbols of Imperial power...".

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:
Titans don't make any sense as weapon systems, for the same reason they work so well in 40k: because they're big. In the game, big is good, but in the modern military, big just means you're a big target.

With our current technology the don't make any sense as weapon systems. Assuming that technology will continue along the same trends as it currently is rather narrrow-minded in my opinion. We're unlikely to have already reached the pinnacle of warfare.

True enough. I'm just assuming modern weapons. Obviously I don't know what weapons people would be using 40,000 years from now, although I'd like to think we'll have moved beyond the basically medieval stuff they use in 40k. Axes and swords and armor and what not. The only thing they're really missing is laser long bows, since they already have the knights on horse(wolf)back

Tadashi wrote:

Joey wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Joey wrote:Pretty sure a nuke would vaporise it. So, none.

No, it won't. You'll just make it worse by 'igniting' the Titan's plasma reactors. You'll vent volatile (and potentially radioactive) plasma over a large area. If it goes up in the middle of a large area of farmland or pasture like the Mid-West (pardon me if I'm wrong, not from the US) it would pretty much shatter the US economy, not to mention set off the biggest environmental/humanitarian crisis in history.

Wait, what? How would it "ignite" the plasma? In fact while we're at it, why, in the 41st millenium, are safety standards for nuclear processes at a sub-Chernobyl level?
And if titans can blow up and wreck an entire planet, why are they used at all?

If you breach the reactors' containment, the plasma will 'ignite' the surrounding atmosphere/matter.

You can't ignite the atmosphere, it's 70% nitrogen and contains virtually no flammable gasses.

well, it doesnt have enough oxygen to blow up. The nuclear physicists at Los Alamos actually had a betting pool to see if they would ignite the entire atmosphere. They didn't know. It was discussed as a serious possibility.

GreatGunz wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:

Alexzandvar wrote:Emperor or Warlord Titan be able to destroy before we took it down? As in Cities Within the United States, or if you think it would be able to destroy all of those and move on to other countries.

None. We'd hit it with a tactical nuke and it would be adios muchachos.
Titans don't make any sense as weapon systems, for the same reason they work so well in 40k: because they're big. In the game, big is good, but in the modern military, big just means you're a big target.

No, it won't! The shields will hold against tactical rounds.

Do you have any idea how many guided missiles the United States has? Anway nothing above ground "holds" when you drop a small sun on it. The destructive power of nuclear weapons is truly awesome.

Void shields...and would the US use nukes on American soil? Nukes will be the last option...they will attempt to take it down by normal means or even capture it until it's obvious that it's not gonna happen

And even if it doesn't how will you handle the explosion of the plasma reactors?

The same way you handle any nuclear event. Evacuate as many people as possible beforehand, and send in the hazmat teams afterwords.

Really, we train for this stuff.

Hazmat teams haven't handles something like this...this is no chemical spill/epidemic/reactor meltdown, this is plasma overload and ignition. In fluff, plasma reactor explosions surpass our own nuclear weapons...you'll be lucky if it doesn't cause a 'mini' nuclear winter.

This is an Emperor/Warlord-class we're talking about...those reactors will be massive, and filled to full capacity in battle with superheated and potentially radioactive plasma. If it goes off, it'll make Tsar Bomba look like Hiroshima. In 40k that's nothing, in our world, that's catastrophic.

I think you're overestimating the power of this machine. It's a big robot, not the death star. We have skyscrapers that are bigger than warlord titans.

Except skyscrapers are equipped with plasma reactors that arguable can power a small warship/city on their own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GreatGunz wrote:well, it doesnt have enough oxygen to blow up. The nuclear physicists at Los Alamos actually had a betting pool to see if they would ignite the entire atmosphere. They didn't know. It was discussed as a serious possibility.

Fair enough...the problem is that volatile plasma could interact with surrounding matter, potentially causing secondary reactions, and, well, you get the idea. The nuke you used to take out the Titan might just magnify the reactors' destructive potential.

Considering how the Ad Mech lands Titans on planets, i;d say there'd be nothing left to engage it by the time it drops down.

There's the craft that has to come from some orbiting ship that brings it down, there's the time spent prepping it for battle once on the surface, detatching clamps and grapples and powering up movement, targeting, weapon systems etc.

Then there's the detatchment of Ad Mech units sent down with it to provide defence whilst this process is going on.

And all the while the Imperial craft orbiting Earth is lancing vital military bases close to the landing site, making note of other bases, communicating with the UN to organise an immediate surrender and assimilation into the Imperium, or if a Titan is required on the Planet to start with, informing them that they are to be cleansed.

Nuclear devices launched will be intercepted by the navy craft sent out to escort the lander that brings the Titan to the surface, as will any air support that wasn't destroyed before planetfall.

Scout Titans will have been deployed beforehand if an Emperor or Warlord's presence in required, and so we'll have to deal with Warhounds and such before we even get close to the main titans of the legion. Baneblades and Leman Russes will be supporting these titans, since such a large scale assault by the Ad Mech and it's Titan Legions would obviously require large amounts of support.

Hundreds of thousands of guardsmen will have been deployed to fortify positions around the titan legion's landing zones, and to provide ground defence and be meatshields.

In short, there is no possible way that a Warlord or Emperor class Titan will be alone on Earth without any kind of support.

NOW,

If a lone Warlord or Emperor titan were to somehow appear in The Middle of Nowhere, Kansas, then it would likely be defeated. The amount of firepower able to be fired its way by various silos, the air forces, and off-shore positions such as ships, would overload the Void Shields unless they were given time between each strike to recharge, and each hit after that would damage the titan.

If it appeared instead in the middle of a city and went on the rampage, then it'd be like Godzilla vs Japan, only with more lasers. It'd eventually be taken down though.

Ultimately it depends on where it appears. It's not very fast, and most countries can have firepower on its way before its even done with the city it landed in.

I'd say a single city, if that.

Any catastrophic kersplosions from the titan's reactor would devastate an entire continent, but that requires the reactor to first be breached, and even titan-killing weaponry from the 41st millenium isn't assured to do this.

Tadashi wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:

Alexzandvar wrote:Emperor or Warlord Titan be able to destroy before we took it down? As in Cities Within the United States, or if you think it would be able to destroy all of those and move on to other countries.

None. We'd hit it with a tactical nuke and it would be adios muchachos.
Titans don't make any sense as weapon systems, for the same reason they work so well in 40k: because they're big. In the game, big is good, but in the modern military, big just means you're a big target.

No, it won't! The shields will hold against tactical rounds.

Do you have any idea how many guided missiles the United States has? Anway nothing above ground "holds" when you drop a small sun on it. The destructive power of nuclear weapons is truly awesome.

Void shields...and would the US use nukes on American soil? Nukes will be the last option...they will attempt to take it down by normal means or even capture it until it's obvious that it's not gonna happen

so.... what do you think is required to take out a void shield? In the game you can do it with a krak missile, but I suppose you have a different idea....?
Yes ofcourse they would use a nuke on US soil. Why the hell wouldnt they? You want to lose 1 city or 10?

And even if it doesn't how will you handle the explosion of the plasma reactors?

The same way you handle any nuclear event. Evacuate as many people as possible beforehand, and send in the hazmat teams afterwords. Really, we train for this stuff.

Hazmat teams haven't handles something like this...this is no chemical spill/epidemic/reactor meltdown, this is plasma overload and ignition. In fluff, plasma reactor explosions surpass our own nuclear weapons...you'll be lucky if it doesn't cause a 'mini' nuclear winter.

Basically, it boils down to: a single Titan (very unusual) would be defeated, but you'll have to use nukes to do it. Otherwise, regular troops will be left bloodied by the encounter, and if the reactors go critical, well now..,

But if you're up against a full Legion, then surrender. Warships in orbit will use lances to destroy air fields and command bunkers; I doubt even NORAD can survive a lance strike from an entire flotilla. Skitarii and associated armor won't let your aircraft/vehicles close; even ballistic missiles will just get shot down in orbit - and the launch facilities will just get lanced. In that case, it would be better for the world and everyone to just surrender and be assimilated (with associated re-education, population transfer, industrial construction, military and political re-organization) into the Imperium.

GreatGunz wrote:Anway nothing above ground "holds" when you drop a small sun on it. The destructive power of nuclear weapons is truly awesome.

Plasma weapons burn at the temperature of a star if I recall correctly, so in 40K, stuff above ground can hold.

True enough. I'm just assuming modern weapons. Obviously I don't know what weapons people would be using 40,000 years from now, although I'd like to think we'll have moved beyond the basically medieval stuff they use in 40k. Axes and swords and armor and what not. The only thing they're really missing is laser long bows, since they already have the knights on horse(wolf)back

Didn't the Interex or someone use something like laser long bow (well, bows that had amazing penetration but the damage inflicted to the body was insufficient to consistedly drop Astartes)?

I just find it bizarre that people seem to think that tactics and weaponry will pretty much stay the same from now on.

so.... what do you think is required to take out a void shield? In the game you can do it with a krak missile, but I suppose you have a different idea....?

More than a krak missile is almost certain required otherwise the shields would be nearly useless due to all the weaponry flying about on a battlefield that a Titan would actually be required on. Game mechanics like bolters taking down shields are very unlikely to represent the background (and considering other void shields such as those on the Imperial Palace (and as far as I know we've nothing to state that some void shields function differently to others) it's very unlikely that merely shooting it with small-scale weaponry will take them down).

Also, unlike in games, in real life armoured vehicles don't have a set amount of hit points to take down and so the vast majority of our weapons are unlikely to do any damage whatsoever to a Titan. Only the bigger ones would stand a chance.

Yes ofcourse they would use a nuke on US soil. Why the hell wouldnt they? You want to lose 1 city or 10?

As he said, conventional means would be the first method of assault. They would only use nuclear weapons if nothing else seemed capable of stopping it (after trying everything else).

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:Anway nothing above ground "holds" when you drop a small sun on it. The destructive power of nuclear weapons is truly awesome.

Plasma weapons burn at the temperature of a star if I recall correctly, so in 40K, stuff above ground gun hold.

Temperature of the center of the sun is 5,500 degrees celsius. Conventional nuclear explosion is over 10 million degrees according to wikipedia.
Myth-busted.

Joey wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:Anway nothing above ground "holds" when you drop a small sun on it. The destructive power of nuclear weapons is truly awesome.

Plasma weapons burn at the temperature of a star if I recall correctly, so in 40K, stuff above ground gun hold.

Temperature of the center of the sun is 5,500 degrees celsius. Conventional nuclear explosion is over 10 million degrees according to wikipedia.
Myth-busted.

Wrong. Surface temperature of the sun is around 6000 degrees; core temperature is around 15000000 degrees.

Tadashi wrote:

Joey wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:Anway nothing above ground "holds" when you drop a small sun on it. The destructive power of nuclear weapons is truly awesome.

Plasma weapons burn at the temperature of a star if I recall correctly, so in 40K, stuff above ground gun hold.

Temperature of the center of the sun is 5,500 degrees celsius. Conventional nuclear explosion is over 10 million degrees according to wikipedia.
Myth-busted.

Wrong. Surface temperature of the sun is around 6000 degrees; core temperature is around 15000000 degrees.

Lol what?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_core
Highest estimates 7,000 degrees: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/PhillipChan.shtml
I don't think I've ever been called "wrong" on dakka when I actually was. Please use sources for your "15000000" claim, and try to use commas to make your numbers easier to understand.

Joey wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Joey wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:Anway nothing above ground "holds" when you drop a small sun on it. The destructive power of nuclear weapons is truly awesome.

Plasma weapons burn at the temperature of a star if I recall correctly, so in 40K, stuff above ground gun hold.

Temperature of the center of the sun is 5,500 degrees celsius. Conventional nuclear explosion is over 10 million degrees according to wikipedia.
Myth-busted.

Wrong. Surface temperature of the sun is around 6000 degrees; core temperature is around 15000000 degrees.

Lol what?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_core

"...and may have a temperature similar to the Sun's surface, approximately 5778 K (5505 °C)."

Core Sun temperature would be far higher.

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun

Temperature Center (modeled): ~1.57×10 to the power of 7 K [1] - ~15,700,000
Photosphere (effective): 5,778 K [1]
Corona: ~5×106 K

Wikipedia's source: http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/sunfact.html

Joey wrote:
Temperature of the center of the sun is 5,500 degrees celsius. Conventional nuclear explosion is over 10 million degrees according to wikipedia.
Myth-busted.

Huh? It is the temprature of the surface of the sun... The center is a bit... hotter.

And i think the titan would destroy zero citites, simply because all nations on Earth would surrender as soon as a titan appears within weapon range of a city.And even if the titan simply keeps shooting even while everyone surrendered, Earth's leadership would fall into an utter disarray, making military counter-attack nigh impossible. Random airstrikes and cruise missiles would strip a few void shields, but nothing serious. And as soon as someone takes control, the titan reaches an important city, and throws everything back into utter chaos.

Tadashi wrote:Void shields...and would the US use nukes on American soil? Nukes will be the last option...they will attempt to take it down by normal means or even capture it until it's obvious that it's not gonna happen

Conventional weapons are used to take down Titans in the 40k universe. There's no reason to suspect they wouldn't work today. Especially given that 40K is essentially WW2 grade military technology + lasers & plasma.

Tadashi wrote:Hazmat teams haven't handles something like this...this is no chemical spill/epidemic/reactor meltdown, this is plasma overload and ignition. In fluff, plasma reactor explosions surpass our own nuclear weapons...you'll be lucky if it doesn't cause a 'mini' nuclear winter.

No, it wouldn't cause a "'mini' nuclear winter." It might be a large nuclear explosion, but that's not that bad. An explosion in NYC would wipe out much of city and damage most of the surrounding suburbs, but really, that's a small portion of the planet.

Here's the Tsar Bomba damage radius superimposed over Paris (35km radius):


The problem with large explosion is that the yield needs to increase exponentially in order to get a constant increase in destructive output. If the plasma reactor yield is 1000 MT, that might only translate into a 100% increase in destructive radius over a 100 MT yield.

AtoMaki wrote:

Joey wrote:
Temperature of the center of the sun is 5,500 degrees celsius. Conventional nuclear explosion is over 10 million degrees according to wikipedia.
Myth-busted.

Huh? It is the temprature of the surface of the sun... The center is a bit... hotter.

And i think the titan would destroy zero citites, simply because all nations on Earth would surrender as soon as a titan appears within weapon range of a city.And even if the titan simply keeps shooting even while everyone surrendered, Earth's leadership would fall into an utter disarray, making military counter-attack nigh impossible. Random airstrikes and cruise missiles would strip a few void shields, but nothing serious. And as soon as someone takes control, the titan reaches an important city, and throws everything back into utter chaos.

Why? It's a 50metres high walker. It has comparatively powerful weapons powered by a small fusion ( at least that's what i think a plasma reactor is. of course, fusion reactors do not go critical...) reactor but that's it. Titans cannot replace entire armies, not in the 40. millenium and most certainly not in the 3. millenium. Contrary to what some people believe a titan is in no way comparable to even the smallest Imperial Warships. In fact your average titan is smaller than a normal ship to ship torpedo used by most imperial warships. We also have several examples of titans being destroyed by rather conventional means ( at least four by Pask alone, another Warlord by Wazdakka, several titans in the third word bearers novel among other examples).

A titan can dish out and endure considerable amounts of firepower but it cannot wage entire battles, at least not against technologicaly advanced opponents, on it's own.

^ I'm not talking about military potence. A nicely planned airstrike could wreck a titan easily. I'm just saying that nobody would call down that airstrike because of (mostly) political reasons.

AtoMaki wrote:^ I'm not talking about military potence. A nicely planned airstrike could wreck a titan easily. I'm just saying that nobody would call down that airstrike because of (mostly) political reasons.

What? They won't kill a titan for "political reasons"? Are you saying the Republicans would actually be in favour of an enormous killing machine rampaging across the Mid-West?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

so.... what do you think is required to take out a void shield? In the game you can do it with a krak missile, but I suppose you have a different idea....?

More than a krak missile is almost certain required otherwise the shields would be nearly useless due to all the weaponry flying about on a battlefield that a Titan would actually be required on. Game mechanics like bolters taking down shields are very unlikely to represent the background (and considering other void shields such as those on the Imperial Palace (and as far as I know we've nothing to state that some void shields function differently to others) it's very unlikely that merely shooting it with small-scale weaponry will take them down).

Joey wrote:
What? They won't kill a titan for "political reasons"? Are you saying the Republicans would actually be in favour of an enormous killing machine rampaging across the Mid-West?

Everyone would be in favour of an enormous, blatantly super-duper high-tech killing machine! Except its poor victims, but who cares about those guys (i'll help: absolutely noone important)?

biccat wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Void shields...and would the US use nukes on American soil? Nukes will be the last option...they will attempt to take it down by normal means or even capture it until it's obvious that it's not gonna happen

Conventional weapons are used to take down Titans in the 40k universe. There's no reason to suspect they wouldn't work today. Especially given that 40K is essentially WW2 grade military technology + lasers & plasma.

Yes. Exactly. This.
You guys who think titans are unstoppable need to read up on how absurdly cool real weapon systems are. We have a bomb that can blast through hundreds of feet of granite (we're about to drop it on the Iranians), one of the hardest substances known to man, and you guys think some overgrown robot can stand up to anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joey wrote:

AtoMaki wrote:^ I'm not talking about military potence. A nicely planned airstrike could wreck a titan easily. I'm just saying that nobody would call down that airstrike because of (mostly) political reasons.

What? They won't kill a titan for "political reasons"? Are you saying the Republicans would actually be in favour of an enormous killing machine rampaging across the Mid-West?

As long as they can blame it on the president

GreatGunz wrote:

biccat wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Void shields...and would the US use nukes on American soil? Nukes will be the last option...they will attempt to take it down by normal means or even capture it until it's obvious that it's not gonna happen

Conventional weapons are used to take down Titans in the 40k universe. There's no reason to suspect they wouldn't work today. Especially given that 40K is essentially WW2 grade military technology + lasers & plasma.

Yes. Exactly. This.
You guys who think titans are unstoppable need to read up on how absurdly cool real weapon systems are. We have a bomb that can blast through hundreds of feet of granite (we're about to drop it on the Iranians), one of the hardest substances known to man, and you guys think some overgrown robot can stand up to anything.

"Move the flotilla into firing position. Spin up plasma reactors - full power to lance batteries! Target all military bases and command centers. They defy the Emperor and His Holy Fleet; I had hoped to end this peacefully, but now we must show them the price of defiance. Now, fire!"

Joey wrote:What? They won't kill a titan for "political reasons"? Are you saying the Republicans would actually be in favour of an enormous killing machine rampaging across the Mid-West?

Certainly the Democrats would.

Of course, a titan intent on destroying cities wouldn't march across the Mid West. It would focus on the Boston-DC corridor.

biccat wrote:

Joey wrote:What? They won't kill a titan for "political reasons"? Are you saying the Republicans would actually be in favour of an enormous killing machine rampaging across the Mid-West?

Certainly the Democrats would.

Of course, a titan intent on destroying cities wouldn't march across the Mid West. It would focus on the Boston-DC corridor.

Leaving a trail of rubble behind it...

Tadashi wrote:"Move the flotilla into firing position. Spin up plasma reactors - full power to lance batteries! Target all military bases and command centers. They defy the Emperor and His Holy Fleet; I had hoped to end this peacefully, but now we must show them the price of defiance. Now, fire!"

Are we now talking about a fleet of kilometer-long starships entering Earth's orbit and dropping nuclear weapons, flesh eating biological agents, 60m long shells travelling at relativistic speeds, and explosives intended to burn the atmosphere and explode the core of the planet?

Then yes, I think we can safely say advantage: Imperium.

Well, at least until the paradox catches up with them and they inadvertently kill the false Emperor before he has a chance to bump uglies with the Chaos Gods and make superhuman space babies.

biccat wrote:

Tadashi wrote:"Move the flotilla into firing position. Spin up plasma reactors - full power to lance batteries! Target all military bases and command centers. They defy the Emperor and His Holy Fleet; I had hoped to end this peacefully, but now we must show them the price of defiance. Now, fire!"

Are we now talking about a fleet of kilometer-long starships entering Earth's orbit and dropping nuclear weapons, flesh eating biological agents, 60m long shells travelling at relativistic speeds, and explosives intended to burn the atmosphere and explode the core of the planet?

Then yes, I think we can safely say advantage: Imperium.

Well, at least until the paradox catches up with them and they inadvertently kill the false Emperor before he has a chance to bump uglies with the Chaos Gods and make superhuman space babies.

Lances, I only ordered lance batteries. And ever heard of Multiple Worlds Hypothesis, if I use that, I don't need to worry about paradoxes.

Tadashi wrote:And ever heard of Multiple Worlds Hypothesis, if I use that, I don't need to worry about paradoxes.

Well, then I'm going to assume Superman also exists, and he comes and saves the day.

He flies around the planet, reversing its spin (and therefore time), and then takes out the ships before they have a chance to react.

Advantage: Earth.