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Dark Apostle 666 wrote:Lord with Daemon weapon and MOK, put him with some Bezerkers and let the blood flow...

oh, but that's the worst one.

Against MEq, a lightning claws MoK lord puts down 6 attacks on the charge for 3 dead marines. On average, the demon weapon khorne lord throws down 12 attacks for 4 dead marines. so, 1/3rd of the time, the demon weapon kills an extra marine or two, 1/3rd of the time, the demon weapon kills about the same number or less, and 1/3 of the time, the demon weapon does NO DAMAGE, and the lord bonks himself in the face.

Spending more points so that you have a chance of either doing slightly more damage on the one hand, or a much better chance to do less damage or NO damage? I can't think of when I'd ever want a bloodfeeder.

Perhaps in the next codex they will be just like a regular demon weapon except get +D6 to damage against vehicles or something, but until then...

how does the Bloodfeeder do nothing 1/3rd of the time? it's only if you roll a 1 that it hurts u. and yes thats risky, especially since ur now rolling 2 dice, but the entire game is based on dice rolls, and, IMO, its worth the possibility of 12 extra attacks!!

On the Typhus subject, between Nurgle's Rot, Wind of Chaos, and his poisoned force weapon, seems like he can kill anything thats not a vehicle. how do you protect him tho since he doesn't have eternal warrior?

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:how does the Bloodfeeder do nothing 1/3rd of the time? it's only if you roll a 1 that it hurts u. and yes thats risky, especially since ur now rolling 2 dice, but the entire game is based on dice rolls, and, IMO, its worth the possibility of 12 extra attacks!!

Because if you look at the probability at the bloodfeeder vs other options you see that it's risk and average damage outweigh its potential damage. I'd rather have a lord the consistently butchers marines, not one that often butchers but sometimes slaps himself or goes mental

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:how does the Bloodfeeder do nothing 1/3rd of the time?

1/6th chance of rolling a 1 one the first extra attack die plus 1/6th chance of rolling a one on the second attack die makes a 2/6ths, or 1/3rd chance he does nothing. Worse than nothing, actually, he clears off 1/3 of the lord's wounds for your opponent.

Let's imagine that the bloodfeeder gave you +5D6 extra attacks. Yes, there is a chance that the MoK lord could do 35 attacks on the charge, but a huge majority of the time, he would just sit there clubbing himself to death as 130 points does nothing more than flush itself down the toilet. If you're a person who likes taking really, really long odds, then that's fine, but as for me...

Jihallah wrote:I'd rather have a lord the consistently butchers marines, not one that often butchers but sometimes slaps himself or goes mental

The odds don't work quite the way you're saying, Alairos. It's basically accurate to say that if you roll 2 dice instead of 1 you have double the chance of rolling a 1, but direct multiplicaiton like that becomes less accurate the more dice you roll. Obviously if you roll 6 dice you don't have a 100% chance of rolling a 1, for instance. The mathematical concept at work here is an asymptote, not direct multiplicaiton. The blood feeder nicely incapsulate's Chaos' "double the risk double the reward" fighting style. It's a good role playing or fluff option even if it isn't all that tactically sound. Personally If I didnt want a demon prince for whatever reason I would run kharne or abaddon, never a lord, more or less for the reasons you all are talking about.

Right, if you're looking at %'s, obviously it doesnt' work with a limit. It's a good way of doing cheaty standard deviation, though.

I mean, if there was something that gave a +6D6, you wouldn't have a 100% chance to do nothing, but at the same time you would be really surprised if it ever did, as doing anything wouldn't be the expected result.

Depends on the dice you're using too. I used to stick really hard to this line "youre dice aren't cursed it's just the odds stop whining" but I've reevaluated recently. Not all dice are manufactured to the same standards. They don't just use any old dice in vegas, for instance. They're very specific about what they'll accept. I wouldn't want to roll cheap dice with a demon weapon.

I will probably catch flack for this, but I really enjoy fielding chaos lords of Nurgle in Termie armor with daemon weapons. A poisoned 4+ weapon that has anywhere from 4-9 attacks on the charge that hit on 3's most of the time, wounding on 4 or better with poisoned rerolls on meq or less? YES PLZ!!!!
Especially when flanked by 5 assault terminators of Nurgle (I like nurgle) with combi weapons

GreatGunz wrote:Depends on the dice you're using too. I used to stick really hard to this line "youre dice aren't cursed it's just the odds stop whining" but I've reevaluated recently. Not all dice are manufactured to the same standards. They don't just use any old dice in vegas, for instance. They're very specific about what they'll accept. I wouldn't want to roll cheap dice with a demon weapon.

What about for those who don't roll actual dice, but use random number generators such as the one built into vassal.

Though the chaos lord with daemon weapon is mostly a fluffy choice, it's not really bad, but it's not up there with a standard daemon prince.

Yeah that's good too.
I don't think the demon weapon guy is horrible, but Ailaros is right that the randomness is a real issue if you're just trying to build the best possible list from that book.

Probably moreso than any other. GK and Orks have some long-odds kinds of things built into them, but CSM is even moreso. If you have crappy dice that bias towards 6's or 1's, your CSM dreadnoughts are going to stubbornly refuse to do what you want them, while if demon weapons fail their price is pretty catastrophic (especially if you're, say, Abbadon, and you roll two 1's in a row). Armies with expensive units and/or weapons and upgrades that more than usual depend on the result of a single die are really hurt by bulk dice.

Even for my guard army I went out of my way and spent the cash for 4 precision dice. Massed lasgun fire might not care as much about crappy dice, but that lascannon HWS better have a REAL 50% chance to hit per shot...

The probability that a Khorne Daemon Weapon gets a 1 is actually 11 out of 36, or slightly less than 1 in 3. I got this by calculating the probability of not getting a 1. You have two chances, and each is independent. So, the probability is 5/6 * 5/6 = 25/36 and the remaining probability is 11/36.

I vote for Kharn or Abbadon, rather than lords because of the eternal warrior issue. Sure Kharn butchers his own guys but it's a gamble and he's fun. He reliably kills things if he gets into CC. And immunity to psychic powers helps these days.

I vote for Daemon princes though, even though I hate fighting grey knights and space marines with their psychic hoods and magical 'oh you take your psychic test at -4 LD btw' dreadnoughts, Now I will just slap a doombolt psychic power on them for 10 pts, wings, and mark of tzeentch or nurgle depending on if I'm facing more small arms fire or anti-tank, and they are a cheap flying MC.

Just buy dice with no one printed on it. You can get custom dice with an extra six!

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:Typhus does seem to expensive, but I have never used him so I don't know. He does auto pass his psychic test, which is cool, but his extra toughness doesn't go towards instant death so S8 Powerfist can insta-kill him. If you do use Abaddon, do you always put him in a Land Raider or can he be Deep Striked in with some Terminators?

Last game I played vs Chaos, Typhus ate a (S8) eldritch lance. Ouch. His Landraider had been blown up by a tachyon arrow. But bad luck can happen no matter what you do.

The worst fear I have is that an opponent will use cover to get his units across the board. Assault armies that know they can't win on shooting often forget to maximize cover while advancing.

Lash is always good, so a Chaos Sorcerer I'd say.

I always run crazy Arhim. Force Weapon, 3 powers, 4+ invuln, and he just looks awesome.

I do agree the Bloodfeeder, or any Daemon Weapon, is risky, I just feel it's worth the risk IMO. BUT, DPs are definitely the best HQ choice in the codex. I have used Abaddon a few times and while he does butcher everything he touches, everyone knows this and tries their hardest to take him out quickly. Kharn I have also used and he puts out alot of damage for his points and he only killed my men twice. The other characters I haven't used, but I plan on getting Typhus and Ahriman just to try them out.

Would Typhus work well in a Plague Marine Squad? or should I just stick to Terminators?

The thing that balances out the risk associated with the blood feeder is that the guy who carries it isn't very expensive. Yeah he might club himself and do nothing, or he might go ape gak and eat a whole squad. For only 140 points you're not taking that big of a risk. Although it's still unacceptably high for competitive play, for a casual game I don't think the csm player is setting himself up to lose. Typhus and Ahriman on the other hand are just too expensive for even casual play. There are too many power fists out there to not have eternal warrior on those guys.

But with all of Typhus's powers, it seems theres nothing he can take on (other than vehicles), put him in a squad of Terminators with LCs to help against MEQ and that can be a very deadly combo.

GreatGunz wrote:The thing that balances out the risk associated with the blood feeder is that the guy who carries it isn't very expensive. Yeah he might club himself and do nothing, or he might go ape gak and eat a whole squad. For only 140 points you're not taking that big of a risk.

before the nerf, I could get for a little more a spartan DP with wings and warptime. You compare the costs to output and add in the profit of all the spartan jokes that can be made and you have a neat little business venture

Yeah warptime was great. Really disappointed about that nerf.

Last game I fielded Abaddon in a unit of 8 berserkers in a Land Raider. Bottom line for me was: huge point sink, but worked great since I could get him to the enemy point sinks which he wasted. In one turn he laid waste to a whole unit of Lychguards by dishing out 9 attacks alone (plus the zerkers).

So in big point games he is a viable choice as long as you have an option to bring him in.

Apparently Khorne Lords with a Bloodfeeder on a Juggernaught are really nasty.

Never tried it myself though.

The Juggernaut gives him +1A AND +1S!!! that means all his 9-17 attacks are S5!!! I could see how this would be nasty!

People don't run juggernauts because it makes him a separate unit, unable to join other squads. This allows your opponent to blow him away with shooting attacks before the combat even begins.

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:But with all of Typhus's powers, it seems theres nothing he can take on (other than vehicles), put him in a squad of Terminators with LCs to help against MEQ and that can be a very deadly combo.

Anything that needs a near 1000 point unit to work isn't worth fielding.

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:The Juggernaut gives him +1A AND +1S!!! that means all his 9-17 attacks are S5!!! I could see how this would be nasty!

... if the juggernaut didn't prevent him from joining a squad, and if if weren't for the fact that he doesn't have eternal warrior.

A MoK lord with a bloodfeeder and a mount is 160 points just begging to be cleared off the board by a single missile launcher.

Lascannon Sniper

Ailaros wrote:A MoK lord with a bloodfeeder and a mount is 160 points just begging to be cleared off the board by a single missile launcher.

Ok, makes sense.

Can a Lord on a Disc of Tzeentch join a squad of Raptors? And can a Lord on Palanquin join a squad of Marines or Terminators?

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:The Juggernaut gives him +1A AND +1S!!! that means all his 9-17 attacks are S5!!! I could see how this would be nasty!

I think the Juggernaught also makes him be reclassed as a Beast or maybe Cavalry. In which case he also gains Fleet and gets 12" Charge. Dont quote me on that though.