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Manchu wrote:Perhaps the Tau are a bit like communism-as-practiced rather than as-preached. As mentioned above, the Tau seem obsessed with categorizing individuals according to their role in society -- proletariat, intelligentsia, etc. Also the Ethereals remind me a lot of the Leninist vanguard party. The Tau habit of incorporating everyone they come across into their ideological framework is also reminiscent of doctrinaire Marxism -- and the related concept of nationalism/racism subtly undermining egalitarian ideals echoes the experiences of the USSR and PRC.

I guess to really be Communists, Tau would need a lot more rhetoric concerning the means of production and the end of history. But "Communist" as a joking label works pretty well.

Actually remind me alot more of the British Empire. An undisputed aristocracy at the very top. A favored caste of "native Tau"/"British" who lead the hard military work. A motely assmbly of inducted forces from those they colonized to serve as meat-shields and servants for menial tasks. And expanding rapidly through both "conquest" and "trade"; whatever "weapon" works best there.

Also synchs alot better with the fact that the "Tau Empire" is indeed an "Empire", which doesn't make sense with a communist-analogy.

Tau society is nothing like British society at any point (the Empire covers a lot of ground, historically). Lots of societies can be analyzed as having a "top" and then "everyone else" but it's not a very accurate or even meaningful analysis.

Yes, the Tau are definitely imperialist. But so also did the USSR and PRC preserve and continue the imperial ambitions of the Russian Empire and the Qing Dynasty respectively. Just ask Chechens or Tibetans. Proponents of communism have traditionally suggested it is a universally applicable ideology and have aggressively spread it usually along with political influence -- which is exactly how Tau see the Greater Good.

Tau are communists, don't get hung up on the lingo. Just case they have Castes doesn't mean anything. Yes, true communism doesn't have classes. But, a communist society also organises people into life long jobs. The Tau don't let you choose what you want to do.You'll work whereever they tell you and you'll have to give up your personal wants and identity and assume that of the Tau's, for the greater good. To submit one's self completely to a entity or body of goverment, and to surrender all you ambitions for that of the "CAUSE", is to be communist. That is the heart and essessnce of it. Classes are just filler at that point.

ZombieJoe wrote:Tau are communists, don't get hung up on the lingo. Just case they have Castes doesn't mean anything. Yes, true communism doesn't have classes. But, a communist society also organises people into life long jobs. The Tau don't let you choose what you want to do.You'll work whereever they tell you and you'll have to give up your personal wants and identity and assume that of the Tau's, for the greater good. To submit one's self completely to a entity or body of goverment, and to surrender all you ambitions for that of the "CAUSE", is to be communist. That is the heart and essessnce of it. Classes are just filler at that point.

Isn't that fascism? To give up oneself for the nation and for the ideals of the whole?

But the imperialist ambitions are also the only thing they share with the USSR. The PRC didn't even have any "imperial" ambitions. Its "colonization" of Tibet et al. was instead legitimized by percieved historic belonging.

And no, communism was not being "preached" as an adherence to a greater good of some sort. Marx and others rather saw it as inevitable result of the growing dissonance of economic foundations and political rule. If the "greater good" is something that must be fostered by effort, it is inherently not something close to communist ideology (but, in contrast, does share some similarties with the idea of a "Commonwealth", which isn't that far from "Greater Good"). The British analogy has flaws, no doubt. It still works alot better than any communist analogy.

fas·cism   /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ Show Spelled[fash-iz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
2. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism.
3. ( initial capital letter ) a fascist movement, especially the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922–43.





com·mu·nism   /ˈkɒmyəˌnɪzəm/ Show Spelled[kom-yuh-niz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
2. ( often initial capital letter ) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.
3. ( initial capital letter ) the principles and practices of the Communist party.
4. communalism.

ZombieJoe wrote:To submit one's self completely to a entity or body of goverment, and to surrender all you ambitions for that of the "CAUSE", is to be communist. That is the heart and essessnce of it. Classes are just filler at that point.

No. To submit one's self completely to a entity or body of government is arguably patriotism or nationalism, as it is a subordination to a state. Communism is an ideology against the state and the government. It's aim is to dismantle the state, which is considered an instrument of oppression from "the Capital" over "Labour". The two are inherently at odds.

Fascim and communism might be close, but fascim is when you're free speach is stripped away. The Tau have no fluff that says they strip you of your free speach.

But, you better believe the Tau own all the property and social activity. And, for that matter, the Tau are self-perpetuating. They have no elections, the Ethereals just pop up and take control.

The only thing about Tau is they have the ONLY successfull communist party every.

If you think about it, the Empire is actually Fascist. If you speak ill of the Emperor or the High Lords...Woe Betide ye...

Ninja'd a bit.

ZombieJoe wrote:Fascim and communism might be close, but fascim is when you're free speach is stripped away. The Tau have no fluff that says they strip you of your free speach.

But, you better believe the Tau own all the property and social activity. And, for that matter, the Tau are self-perpetuating. They have no elections, the Ethereals just pop up and take control.

The only thing about Tau is they have the ONLY successfull communist party every.

If you think about it, the Empire is actually Fascist. If you speak ill of the Emperor or the High Lords...Woe Betide ye...

But the Ethereals are not a political party, not even of a uni-party state. They lead by divine providence or gene-engineered providence. And I can recall no mention of collective ownership among the Tau. Infact, they even have the "Water Caste" which is explicitly described as merchants and traders.

Zweischneid wrote:

ZombieJoe wrote:To submit one's self completely to a entity or body of goverment, and to surrender all you ambitions for that of the "CAUSE", is to be communist. That is the heart and essessnce of it. Classes are just filler at that point.

No. To submit one's self completely to a entity or body of government is arguably patriotism or nationalism, as it is a subordination to a state. Communism is an ideology against the state and the government. It's aim is to dismantle the state, which is considered an instrument of oppression from "the Capital" over "Labour". The two are inherently at odds.

That doesn't change the fact that to have a successful communist society, you must submit yourself to it completely. America citizens can have nationalist ideals but in the end, for a free/open market to work in a capitalist society, the people of it have to have self interests, which in the antithesis of true communism.

Fascism is a political system with incidental economic consequences. Communism is an economic theory that has been interpreted to have definite political implications. The Tau aren't technically Communists because the Greater Good doesn't seem to be an economic theory at all but rather a political one. We don't really know what it's economic implications are. The term "fascism" is a hard sell for the Tau because fascism is inextricably linked with nationalism and racism. The Tau agenda is overtly non-racist (although it may be crypto-racist).

Beyond the fact that they are called communists jokingly, it is more the whole "Greater Good" deal that earns them that reputation.

Zweischneid wrote:

ZombieJoe wrote:Fascim and communism might be close, but fascim is when you're free speach is stripped away. The Tau have no fluff that says they strip you of your free speach.

But, you better believe the Tau own all the property and social activity. And, for that matter, the Tau are self-perpetuating. They have no elections, the Ethereals just pop up and take control.

The only thing about Tau is they have the ONLY successfull communist party every.

If you think about it, the Empire is actually Fascist. If you speak ill of the Emperor or the High Lords...Woe Betide ye...

But the Ethereals are not a political party, not even of a uni-party state. They lead by divine providence or gene-engineered providence. And I can recall no mention of collective ownership among the Tau. Infact, they even have the "Water Caste" which is explicitly described as merchants and traders.

They are still the ruling class. They may not be a "party" in the traditional sense, but they are the rulers, whether by diving providence or gene-engineered providence, they are still the self-perpetuating rulers.

Again, the Ethreals are very much like a Leninist vanguard party.

Yes. There is a ruling caste. But I fail to see how "a ruling caste" is communism (or what similarities they share with Lenin). Monarchy, Oligarchy, Theocracy, Tribal societies, etc.. . Nearly all historical forms of government have some form of ruling caste.

The precise attributes that define "communism" such as anti-statist ideology and common ownership of property and "means of production" are not present among the Tau.

Infact, Ethereals are just about the polar opposite of a "Leninist Vanguard Party". The latter were supposed to be "resolute, committed guys" from the lowest rungs of the working class. The former are an aristocratic, refined group of beings who would never consider menial labour of any sort or consider themselves to be "part" of the lowest rungs of society.

Once again, for all those reasons, calling Tau "communists" can only be a joke.

It's a pretty good joke, though.

Grunt13 wrote:while maintaining their power through mind control

You say that like it's an established fact.

Tadashi wrote:Thing is, Tau fans lap up the Tau Empire's propaganda that the galaxy is black and white morality, with the Tau being white. That's not true.

I think you're getting a bit carried away with your assumption that Tau fans are in denial.
Every 40k faction that is not hell-bent on survival at all costs, be it through iron-grip hatred-fuelled tyranny (Imperium) or manipulation and sacrifice of others without a second thought (Eldar), is in it for massive destruction/consumption/corruption of all that exists (Orks, Necrons, Nids, Dark Eldar, Chaos).
And in the middle of the mud, there is a race that seeks not to conserve or destroy, but to build something. This alone is a refreshingly positive attitude. Add to this the fact that the values they push happen to be benevolent, and you have a genuinely endearing (and so far not quite "grey") faction.

Now, your mileage may vary about the actual implementation of their plans for the Greater Good, the measures they resort to and what counts as propaganda.


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Zweischneid wrote:Monarchy, Oligarchy, Theocracy, Tribal societies, etc.. . Nearly all historical forms of government have some form of ruling caste.

Heck, more than one modern democracy are de facto guilty of this.

The cloest thing Tau can be related to, is communist. They may not be 'true' communist but hell, USR wasn't 'true' communist. So far, no society has ever really gotten it right. So you can say that Tau don't have a 100% communist goverment, but its pretty damn close. Close enough that calling the communist is not wrong. They certainly are not any of the other options out there. Tau are some mutation of the pure communist society, but they are, at heart, supporting very Communist/Socialist ideas.

ZombieJoe wrote:The cloest thing Tau can be related to, is communist. They may not be 'true' communist but hell, USR wasn't 'true' communist. So far, no society has ever really gotten it right. So you can say that Tau don't have a 100% communist goverment, but its pretty damn close. Close enough that calling the communist is not wrong. They certainly are not any of the other options out there. Tau are some mutation of the pure communist society, but they are, at heart, supporting very Communist/Socialist ideas.

Which communist idea? There isn't a single communist idea at the heart of the Tau?

They are just an old fashioned monarchy with a medieval caste-system and a rather imperialist outlook that they advance through conquest and (the rather un-communist) method of mercantilist trade.

Ancient Egypt. Ancient India. Ancient Sparta or Troy even. Plato's Philosopher King-ruled Politeia. The British Empire. Napoleonic Imperialism. Even modern-day Nato fighting through "proxy-troops" in places like Libya. Every single one of them fits better, is "closer" to the Tau than "communism".

Again, they actually "incorporate" other regions through trade. Tau are probably the ONLY 40K faction with anything remotely resembling capitalism (outside of the Ork's "teeth"-economy).

Zweischneid wrote:

ZombieJoe wrote:The cloest thing Tau can be related to, is communist. They may not be 'true' communist but hell, USR wasn't 'true' communist. So far, no society has ever really gotten it right. So you can say that Tau don't have a 100% communist goverment, but its pretty damn close. Close enough that calling the communist is not wrong. They certainly are not any of the other options out there. Tau are some mutation of the pure communist society, but they are, at heart, supporting very Communist/Socialist ideas.

Which communist idea? There isn't a single communist idea at the heart of the Tau?

They are just an old fashioned monarchy with a medieval caste-system and a rather imperialist outlook that they advance through conquest and (the rather un-communist) method of mercantilist trade.

Ancient Egypt. Ancient India. Ancient Sparta or Troy even. Plato's Philosopher King-ruled Politeia. The British Empire. Napoleonic Imperialism. Even modern-day Nato fighting through "proxy-troops" in places like Libya. Every single one of them fits better, is "closer" to the Tau than "communism".

Again, they actually "incorporate" other regions through trade. Tau are probably the ONLY 40K faction with anything remotely resembling capitalism (outside of the Ork's "teeth"-economy).

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree. Communist is the idea of the collective over the individual, which is the essence of Tau.

ZombieJoe wrote:
Well we'll just have to agree to disagree. Communist is the idea of the collective over the individual, which is the essence of Tau.

That is not communism. And insisting it is, is just willful ignorance. I agree that the Tau have a theme of "collective over the individual" (as do, for example, all Space Marine Chapters who put their Chapter over themselves, and usually the IoM over their Chapter). But that is not communism by any indication.

Tadashi wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:The tau have a clear Orwellian feel to them which people are referencing when the call them space commies; they are not doing it out of ignorance. The tau are not so much being compared to marxist regimes that actually existed (Red China, USSR), but dystopian empires depicted in literature like Animal Farm, 1984, Fahrenheit 451, Utopia, A Brave New World, and etc. The ethereals impose a eugenic style caste system which tau are bred and and born into their jobs, while maintaining their power through mind control - concepts taken straight out of A Brave New World.

The concepts tau embrace, ‘That everyone has to dedicate their lives to the goals of the state and that working for your own self is the the greatest evil imaginable’; is pretty extreme especially considering that the ethereals are the undisputed leaders of the tau forming a racial-based, oligarchical, totalitarian state; just adds to the shadiness people see in the tau empire. I sympathize with people who got into Tau believing they were playing the Johnny Do Goods of the 40K universe; only to be told that their armies are actually pretty tyrannical, but its hard to overlook the Vespid Communion Helms.

You've just pointed out one of the biggest flaws in the Tau fan base. The fan bases of other factions know and accept their favorite's negative actions...Imperial and other non-Tau fans refuse to believe in fluff propaganda that puts them in a good light - they know 40k is a grey and black morality. Thing is, Tau fans lap up the Tau Empire's propaganda that the galaxy is black and white morality, with the Tau being white. That's not true. Culturally, the cultures of the Tau eventually overwrite the cultures of the client races. The Tau look down on the barbaric practices of the Kroot that are supposedly equal. Humans who refuse to accept the Greater Good either get executed of 're-educated', not to mention the suspicious Vespid helmets.

Once again Tadashi womits out lies...

Hyd wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:while maintaining their power through mind control

You say that like it's an established fact.

It is, read Xenology. An ethereal was dissected and the biological system of control was revealed. Mind controlling chemicals are released through their forehead diamond thing. Which going back to the the first and second tau codex IIRC, 'No tau can refuse the commands of an ethereal, any tau can be order to kill themselves and they would do so without question'. Really makes me root for the Farsight tau who resemble the protagonist in the the books like Fahrenheit 451, 1984, and Brave New World.

I admit that I call Tau communists routinely. I am fully aware of how much they do not fit the label, but I enjoy the outrage it causes over such a ridiculously minor thing.

There are lot of stereotypes made of all the different factions in 40k and they are not worth getting worked up over.

If not agreeing with your perception of a loosely defined definition is your idea of "willful ignorance" than I see no reason to continue to debate with you. You're welcome to your interpration, but in mine communism is what you get when a society puts their individual desires aside and adopts one for the good of all.

Yes, SM's and most of the Imperium share this trait. But, they have an open market (well more open) with private enterprises, rogue traders. They have also a fascist way of silencing anyone who doesn't agree with them. In that, I'd say the Empire has an even harder system to define.

Tau, if you read the books and fluff, which I'm doubting you have, or atleast completely. You'll notice a trend. First, individuals are not given a choice over what thier jobs will be. Two, they do not get to elect officals, ever. In fact, not only do they not get to elect officals, but they don't even get represeted by anyything other than species of one particular race. Three, casts are not classes. A class is a division of wealth. Castes are a division of labor. The fire caste dont have more money that the water, they just have different jobs. If you read about the USR, you'll see that this was largely how many jobs were asigned. China does the same thing, read the bio on sun ming ming and how he got into basket ball. All the nations of our world who are communist have do this.

Tau are closer to communist than anything else.

Agreed. They are fascists.

Perhaps. But, I hope I don't step on your toes, your interpretation of "communism" seems to partly coloured by the versions you would find it, say, american presidential elections, where "socialist" and "communist" is largely used as a catch-all term for everything that is deemed to go against "the american way of doing things" made up largely of individual entrepreneurship and resistance to public regulation (at least at a national/federal level).

Noone disagrees that Tau present a dystopian society. Or that they use indentured labour, genetic manipulation, double-standards in dealing with alien "allies", ruthlessly overrule individual desires in pursuit of societal goals, etc... . In that, they share traits with all autocratic, undemocratic and dictatorial regimes that have ever exited, all of which have always and without exception trod on individual rights and freedom. And yes, many, likely all communist regimes have ended up as dictatorial oppressions in one way or another. Your definition of "communism" doesn't seem to be based on "what communism does". Your definition of "communism" seems to be based on "what communism does not": e.g. respect individual freedom. You're right, it doesn't. But so don't most other things. It's not what "defines" or "differentiates" communism however.

But to classify them ALL as communism rather misses the historial and ideological specifity of communism (an anti-government, revolutionary movement seeking to overthrow hierarchical, inherited rule as those represented, perhaps, by Ethereals). It's like classifying all non-white colours as black, just because "black" has the best ring in sluring "white". It might work for US presidential elections perhaps, but for a setting which largely prides itself of presenting a rich variety of (very dark) shades of grey, it does a disservice to the ingenuity and creativity of the GW staff writing these things to just willfully ignore the rich variety of inspirations (the Japanese feudal castes of warrior, farmer, trader, reinforced by the Ahigaru-style rifles, the Asimov-reference that originated the "greater good", etc..).

Hell, it would perhaps even be fun to have a "communist" race in 40K IMO, where some Alien's lowest rungs of society have successfully overthrown their rulers and now try to "convert" other 40K races to rebell against their aristocratic Overlords, Farseers, Ethereals, whatever.. in the name of an intergalactic proletariat solidarity.

But Tau are not that race. Sorry.

I can certainly see the reasoning beyond your perspective. I would agree that Tau are not purely communist and also the Empire is not purely Facist. They are both too complex to be labeled so simply. Tau do not demonstrate 100% Communist ideals. But, I think you're splitting hairs. If we want to advocate why they are not communist then I'd say you've presented a sound argument that mertis consideration. But, calling them Communist is just 'best guess' or 'rounding up'. They exhist some very classic and connotative ideas of communism. Does that make them communist, maybe not. But, as far as the OP is concerned, yes Tau are communist. In the simplist of terms and to define them somehow, it is easier to say that Tau are. Calling them some strange Neo-Communial-Feudal-hodgepodge, is going to far. For simplicityies sake, its just quicker, and fairly accurate. I say they have more reasons to be called communist then not to be.

Sturmtruppen wrote:
But 'greater good' is a Utilitarian philosophy, not a Communist one. Communism is, at its roots, focused on economic policies, which the Tau are not.

And yet again:

Society follows Utilitarian philosophy but their ideology is still Communist one.
Ideology and Society are always connected but they can almost always be two totally different thing.
American society follows "try to control as much as you can" philosophy, but they are still Christians by majority.


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In fact, Tau ideology being an communist one makes perfect sense because Tau are easterly motivated.

They have caste society witch is common in India/Southeast Asia.
Their ideology fit with China ( who is the worlds most powerful Communist country. )
And all their high tech and anime touch was obviously inspired by Japan.
And there you go - all Asia in one faction. ( Except for the Middle east, but that is Tallarn oriented ).