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You need to read the book before coming to class...

Out of all of the "playable" races described in 40k, the Tau Empire is far and away the LEAST focused on its military. Given that 40k is a game about war, the focus of the sourcebooks is understandable. But if you are looking for a DEFINING characteristic of the Tau Empire, Fascism isn't it. Particularly when you compare them to the Imperium, which was designed to be a super-fascist archetype.

Tau society is absolutely based around the idea of promotion. You have forgotten where all of those cute name suffixes come from? Every caste has its own leadership structure that is separate from the Ethereals. It is not all static. It is an absolute meritocracy. The only real caveat to this is that there is no lateral progression. You can only promote within your overall role in society. Which is the defining characteristic of a caste system, but a caste system is anathema to Communism and has nothing whatsoever to do with Fascism.

The point before about Imperial Japan made before was mostly right, but the Ethereals are not the Shogun. The "Shogun" would be the leaders of the Fire Caste and the Ethereals would be equivalent to the Emperor during times when the Shogunate was weaker. The Ethereals set overall policy, but they are not military commanders. They are a priestly sect that influences the direction the Empire as a whole takes, but they do not run the military. The critical point about the Ethereals is that they are very, very rare. A Tau may or may not be biologically compelled to obey, but in general they might go months or years without any direct leadership from the Ethereal Caste, particularly when deployed. Tau from other castes are perfectly capable of making their own decisions about what the Greater Good consists of without an Ethereal there in the room. Nor are the Ethereals likely to speak with a single voice. If you are looking for a mindless race following the whims of its overlords without question, Tyranids and Necrons have you covered.

Moreover, Tau do have artists and intellectuals. Both are going to mainly fall within the Earth caste with small amounts of crossover into the Water, Air, and Ethereal castes. This has been in the caste descriptions since the beginning. It is still utilitarian in that their work invariably serves the Tau culture directly, but the professions still exist.

There has never been anything in the background to suggest the Tau view all other species as barbarians or that they use fear of those species to motivate the masses. It just isn't there in the background. We know they are a bit squeamish about the Kroot, but no more than humans or Eldar would be.

The big problem with the Tau is that the general lack of background material has meant that people are comfortable making a lot of this stuff up. But when you look at what is actually there in the books, you are left with a culture that doesn't really correspond well to any real-world cultures. It is as alien in its own way as the Orks. But the Tau have never been balanced within the background by some sinister "dark side" like that of the Imperium or Eldar. They are balanced because their military is many orders of magnitude smaller than any of their opponents, with a side-balance of physical limitations and shorter lifespans.

In terms of the definition of Fascism, point 1 definitely applies to the Tau., although no more than any of the other factions. Point 8 applies, although again, not as well as it does to the Imperium. Point 6 might apply and it might not. But none of the other points apply to the Tau, in some cases because it just isn't a normal human society that you are considering.

ALL 14 POINTS apply much more to the Imperium in 40k than they do to the Tau.

I thought the tau might be fascist. You know because they are fanatically devoted to an ideal and things like that. After I looked up the definition, I realized they didn't quite fit. Honestly it might just be better to call the tau tauist, It's a lot of work trying to wedge them into government types and what do we get from it?

Sturmtruppen wrote:Let's get this straight: the Tau are not Communist.

Communism: classless stateless society.
Tau: Empire with a caste system.

Now go and hang your head in shame.

Well I studied a bit of Chinese history at university and theres actually a lot more asian vibe going on than people realise.

The state 'religion/moral philosophy' of the Chinese Empire was Confucianism which roughly believed that a sage called confucius had created a trully moral government that served the needs of the people provided that they obeyed their superiors. A ruler would treat the ruled as his own wife or children; being both fair and just in equal measure. To help this the rulers were trained by exams through stufying confucian classics to learn the morals of confucianism before becoming officials.

Simply put Confucian Sage=Etherial

and Tau Empire=Confucian China (only it actually worked )

This is easily noted in the completely submissive nature of Tau to the etherial caste whom they regard with total reverence. Its also notable that this is not a democracy since (as with the Confucian model) there would be no point with legitimate leaders who act with complete morality and disinterest to serve the people. The Tau accept that their leaders are the only ones suitable to govern their race and by extension everybody else in the galaxy.

It only works as a partial comparison since there are plenty of Western inspiration for what the Tau do with 19th century European colonialism and the civilizing mission but there are plenty of similarities to China. Particularly the notion of absolute and righteous obedience to the benevolent and enlightened ruling caste.

Also the word Tau is suspiciously close to Taoism which is a form of popular religion

edit-Just read above and somebody mentioned Japan. They were very close to the Confucian morality but differed significantly from it in that they didn't have a completely seperate 'caste' of Scholar-officials who ran everything but had Samurai which operated closer to medieval feudalism. So I think Tau are closer to China than they are Japan so far as Etherials go.

That makes sense to me. Partly because tau culture/government always felt rather old.

nomotog wrote:That makes sense to me. Partly because tau culture/government always felt rather old.

Actually i read several books in my Uni Library that suggested that Mao took a lot of inspiration from the Confucian classics (the Empire only fell in 1912 ) and that his brand of Communism always had a stronger sense of traditional china about it; cultural revolution not withstanding. For example he got a lot of military inspiration from Sun Tsu's The Art of War.

So there might be something in the communism reference.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Feel free to enlighten the rest of the class.

Most of it, actually, is fictional. If you look into what Fascism is (and try to find a definition on any site who's purpose isn't attacking fascism) you won't get most of this. I'd think anyone around the age of five would see a politically motivated attempt here.

Is communist offensive? I wouldn't stress out about it, they are just anti American so they're communist socialist fascist Muslims. Coming from a socialist who lives in the south, it could be worse. Your army could be called furries on tg all the time...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, calling them communists is an attempt to demonize what was once considered an all around "good" army. They drew comparisons to Soviet Russia and the iron curtain and all of a sudden, whatever the Tau were fighting for didn't look too promising.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Do this for sure. "The Greater Good" defines their entire culture.

Doesn't really equate to a constant, ubiquitous display of the Imperial Faith, or of "real" fascist nations constant display and reverence of flags and other national symbols. By its very nature as a philosphy (perhaps most akin to today's Bhutan's pursuit of "national happyness"; rather than symbolism of the nation. And as being a "future-oriented" vision, rather than a adoration of the current nation, it doesn't fit at all.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Sterilization, brainwashing, and enslavement of captured populations.

I acknowledged that Tau do alot of that (but than again, no more than any other 40K faction. So at least in 40K comparative perspective, they don't really stick out there).

DarknessEternal wrote:

Tau think only Tau can effectively rule the galaxy. Everyone else are incompetent children who can, at best, listen to Tau.

That is not the same. And I'd like to see a reference for that "everyone else are incompetent children. As seen in the Tau Codex (p. 6) and the DE Codex, they approached even Orks and Dark Eldar with realtive openess and friendliness. Both cases where a more aggressive initial approach might have been warranted. This is pretty much the anti-thesis of fascism as prominently displayed, notably, the IoM which goes to great lenghts to "vilify" and "de-humanize" the Xenos, the Heretic, the Witch, whatever in their propaganda. Within the existing Tau fluff, they don't even mention degradory slurs or simplified black/white vilifications of others.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Tau culture is 100% about the military. Nothing else matters except the military machine. Everything supports it.

Again wrong. The Codex is very specific that the Tau only succeeded when "each caste's talents" fully unfolded and allowed to add to Tau prosperity through synergy. It's actually one of the key aspects of "the Greater Good" philosophy that ALL parts are needed and necessary. The military/fire caste is but one piece of the puzzle and ending their aggressive domination over others was one of the things the Ethereals did away with.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Ok, they don't have this one, but this is not relevant to fascism. Makes me think you just made these points up.

It is based on comparative analysis of all fascist ideologies. They all have it. Hitler Germany gave out "awards" for Mothers who bore many children. Some of the more extreme Asian regimes went as far as seperate children from families that failed to fully comply with their backwards view of what "tradiitonal family" should look like and had them raised by "model" families. Traditional "family" roles and backwardish gender-relations are very much the cornerstone of all fascist regimes. Likewise the prosecution of gays and similar oppressive measures that fascist's claim go against "the Volk" or, the reproductive prosperity of the nation, whatever.

DarknessEternal wrote:
There is no media except what the party controls.

There is no reference in the Tau Codex or any other fluff. If you make such a claim, I would again like to see a reference. There might well be "independent" Water- or Air-Caste Radio, TV, whatever. As noted, I also gave this a yes to err on the side of caution, but ultimately, we simple do not know.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Yes. Fear of all those bloodthirsty, barbarians, non-Tau.

Again, a reference would be welcome. Given the mentioned Ork, DE, but also Kroot, etc. episodes, as well as the lack of any text-line ever that would have the Tau disparage other races, this statement of yours seems to fly into the face of the actually given fluff. Once again, if there is one thing that differentiates the Tau from ALL other 40K factions, it is the fact that they are arguably the only ones that do not do this.

DarknessEternal wrote:
There is no distinction between religion and government for Tau. Their gods are their rulers.

True. As they are with Chaos, the IoM, the Eldar, etc.. . Given that it's a setting where the Gods are "real", this happens. Still, the "religious" rhetoric is notably more subdued with the Tau than the Imperial "The Emperor Protects" or "Burn the Witch" or whathaveyou

DarknessEternal wrote:
Ethereals are infallible.

Not sure what that has to do with control of corporate power. The Pope in the Vatican is also considered infallible. But he still does not exercise active protectionism over the economy, or was elevated to his rule by a power-coalition of economic power.

DarknessEternal wrote:
They beat this by unionizing the entire labor force under religion.

????? What? I don't even understand what you are saying there. Again, I ruled this a yes due to lack of information. But frankly, if a prosperous Water Caste trader in a border-world has his employees go on strike, I don't really see Ethereals intervening much. Such mundane, economic concerns are likely below their interest.

DarknessEternal wrote:

They have no intellectuals or arts.

Wrong. Page 9 of the Tau Codex specifically mentions the propensity of Earth Caste for going beyond "technical" functioanlity to produce astonishing works of design and craftsmanship. Air Caste science is also pointed out several times, and rapid scientifc progress and achievements are a defining aspect of the Tau. Did you ever even read the Codex?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Tau voluntarily submit to no civil rights. They think it's for their own good.

Reference? They all answer unthnkinging to Ethereals, a given. But that is also because Ethereals are an "unnatural" addition whose "mind-control" abilites are not fully explained. Again, Water Caste is briefly noted to also put forward judges and arbitrators (p. 6). So there must be something to judge and arbitrate about that isn't decided ex-machina by Ethereal decree.

But as said, I also ruled this a yes out of lack of information. But you seem to have an exaggerated view that I can find no confirmation for in the book.

DarknessEternal wrote:

There are no promotions at all in Tau culture, so it hardly matters. No one moves socially.

Outside their castes? No. Though Fire Castes are noted to either make astonishing careers to become famed commanders. Or they don't. Either way, I am not sure what corruption has to do with career. GW products go to some lenght to point out that the Imperium of Man is largely "corrupt". The term is not used in the Tau Codex at all, which makes a point to highlight the efficiency and cleanness of the entire thing.

DarknessEternal wrote:

They don't have elections, only Ethereals.

Which is why feudalism (and others) is such a far better fit than fascism.

khanaris wrote:You need to read the book before coming to class...

Out of all of the "playable" races described in 40k, the Tau Empire is far and away the LEAST focused on its military. Given that 40k is a game about war, the focus of the sourcebooks is understandable. But if you are looking for a DEFINING characteristic of the Tau Empire, Fascism isn't it. Particularly when you compare them to the Imperium, which was designed to be a super-fascist archetype.

Tau society is absolutely based around the idea of promotion. You have forgotten where all of those cute name suffixes come from? Every caste has its own leadership structure that is separate from the Ethereals. It is not all static. It is an absolute meritocracy. The only real caveat to this is that there is no lateral progression. You can only promote within your overall role in society. Which is the defining characteristic of a caste system, but a caste system is anathema to Communism and has nothing whatsoever to do with Fascism.

The point before about Imperial Japan made before was mostly right, but the Ethereals are not the Shogun. The "Shogun" would be the leaders of the Fire Caste and the Ethereals would be equivalent to the Emperor during times when the Shogunate was weaker. The Ethereals set overall policy, but they are not military commanders. They are a priestly sect that influences the direction the Empire as a whole takes, but they do not run the military. The critical point about the Ethereals is that they are very, very rare. A Tau may or may not be biologically compelled to obey, but in general they might go months or years without any direct leadership from the Ethereal Caste, particularly when deployed. Tau from other castes are perfectly capable of making their own decisions about what the Greater Good consists of without an Ethereal there in the room. Nor are the Ethereals likely to speak with a single voice. If you are looking for a mindless race following the whims of its overlords without question, Tyranids and Necrons have you covered.

Moreover, Tau do have artists and intellectuals. Both are going to mainly fall within the Earth caste with small amounts of crossover into the Water, Air, and Ethereal castes. This has been in the caste descriptions since the beginning. It is still utilitarian in that their work invariably serves the Tau culture directly, but the professions still exist.

There has never been anything in the background to suggest the Tau view all other species as barbarians or that they use fear of those species to motivate the masses. It just isn't there in the background. We know they are a bit squeamish about the Kroot, but no more than humans or Eldar would be.

The big problem with the Tau is that the general lack of background material has meant that people are comfortable making a lot of this stuff up. But when you look at what is actually there in the books, you are left with a culture that doesn't really correspond well to any real-world cultures. It is as alien in its own way as the Orks. But the Tau have never been balanced within the background by some sinister "dark side" like that of the Imperium or Eldar. They are balanced because their military is many orders of magnitude smaller than any of their opponents, with a side-balance of physical limitations and shorter lifespans.

In terms of the definition of Fascism, point 1 definitely applies to the Tau., although no more than any of the other factions. Point 8 applies, although again, not as well as it does to the Imperium. Point 6 might apply and it might not. But none of the other points apply to the Tau, in some cases because it just isn't a normal human society that you are considering.

ALL 14 POINTS apply much more to the Imperium in 40k than they do to the Tau.

A: I will exalt this because it takes my standpoint

B: The tau have a very deep respect for the kroot. Maybe allittle disgusted by their flesh eating habits. But the imperium would directly purge them, the eldar would insult them call them stupid and just ignore them. But the tau they believe that trough coexisting the kroot will learn to behave like the tau so the respect is actually way larger.