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Let's get this straight: the Tau are not Communist.

Communism: classless stateless society.
Tau: Empire with a caste system.

Now go and hang your head in shame.

Noone seriously said so.

Tau are "Space Communists" is just a random slur by ignorant people who a) do not like Tau and b) think "communist" is just a synonym for "idiots" (mainly Americans, sorry guys) without even knowing what it is.

Trying to educate the "haters" will not work.

Tau are not communist by their society - but by their ideology.

Communist ideal call for all people to be equal, for all individuals to work toward the grater good of all Mankind, for better social status of all people and equality and unity to overcome every purpose.Tau ideology is the same, their mission is to bring peace, equality and better life to everyone in the galaxy, to present all races in their empire as equal and to stand united against common threats.

Tau are by ideology communist and by society a mix of Indian/Japanese.

And can we seriously stop with Tau threads already? We have like 9 other factions to choose to discuss about...

Brother Coa wrote:

Tau are not communist by their society - but by their ideology.

Communist ideal call for all people to be equal, for all individuals to work toward the grater good of all Mankind, for better social status of all people and equality and unity to overcome every purpose.Tau ideology is the same, their mission is to bring peace, equality and better life to everyone in the galaxy, to present all races in their empire as equal and to stand united against common threats.

Tau are by ideology communist and by society a mix of Indian/Japanese.

And can we seriously stop with Tau threads already? We have like 9 other factions to choose to discuss about...

There is no mention of "equality for all individuals or races" anywhere in the Tau books.

The idea to work jointly towards a "higher goal" isn't exclusive to Communism. Another inspiration could be Mahayana Buddhism, which runs the theme strongly. Hell, even good old American (or British) Patriotism to work for (even sacrifice your life as soldier) for the rather abstract notion of a "nation" would fit the bill. Same for achieving "better life" for everyone, which largely was the promise of the "West" during the Cold War, less so than the "East".


That said, "Greater Good" in the Tau Codex as a term is a direct quote/reference from Asimov's Foundation Series, specifically "The 1000-Year Plan" to build (hint hint) a "second Empire" in foresight of the predicted collapse of the big, corrupt, galaxy-dominating Empire that exists.

The tau are collectivists, not communists. But unfortunately, nobody ever says "In collectivist Tau, Kroot eat you!". Just doesn't roll off the tongue the same.

So communist it is.

Its the same reason they are the anime army - because people who don't know what they are talking about called it that, and the name stuck.

Brother Coa wrote:

Tau are not communist by their society - but by their ideology.

Communist ideal call for all people to be equal, for all individuals to work toward the grater good of all Mankind, for better social status of all people and equality and unity to overcome every purpose.Tau ideology is the same, their mission is to bring peace, equality and better life to everyone in the galaxy, to present all races in their empire as equal and to stand united against common threats.

Tau are by ideology communist and by society a mix of Indian/Japanese.

And can we seriously stop with Tau threads already? We have like 9 other factions to choose to discuss about...

But 'greater good' is a Utilitarian philosophy, not a Communist one. Communism is, at its roots, focused on economic policies, which the Tau are not.

DrimGark wrote:The tau are collectivists, not communists. But unfortunately, nobody ever says "In collectivist Tau, Kroot eat you!". Just doesn't roll off the tongue the same.

So communist it is.

Tau are not collectivists either. At least, far less so than Space Marine Chapters, Eldar Craftworlds, Tyranid Swarms, Necron Dynasties, even Dark Eldar Kabals (who, though driven by self-interest of individual Dark Eldar, place far more emphasis of the relative prosperty of "their house/faction" in a corporatist-sort of collectivism).

And most modern forms of collectivisms ("for the company", "for the church", "for the community") are the political anti-thesis of communism as it used to be.

When most people refer to Tau as communist, they're more referring to the USSR style communism which had much more social power as well as economic control.

Luke_Prowler wrote:When most people refer to Tau as communist, they're more referring to the USSR style communism which had much more social power as well as economic control.

I don't see that. Infact, USSR-style communism was arguably far less focussed on a "unitary"/"national" vision than the ( partly confucian/buddhist-rooted) easter communisms of China, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc.. .

Most things are not most other things. This is not news.

According to Kroothawk Tau are utilitarianism...?

Fralethepalewhale wrote:According to Kroothawk Tau are utilitarianism...?

In the respect that Utilitarianism is focused on the 'greatest good'. But in terms of the Tau, the Greater Good is whatever the Ethereals say it is.

And it usually isn't all that bad, I mean normally it seems as if the Ethereal aren't doing anything terrible. But still I think they are a little different from communism.

Again, I'd dispute the Utilitarianism thing.

wikipedia wrote:
Utilitarianism is an ethical theory holding that the proper course of action is the one that maximizes the overall "happiness". It is thus a form of consequentialism, meaning that the moral worth of an action is determined only by its resulting outcome, and that one can only weigh the morality of an action after knowing all its consequences. Two influential contributors to this theory are Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill.

If Utilitarianism is dependent on the knowledge (and moral weighting) of an actions outcome, the Tau, following rather unquestionably the orders of the Ethereals without given consideration to its outcomes, cannot possibly guide and judge their own actions by any moral foresight that Utilitarianism would reguire. The "greater good" in the Tau is an abstracted, but (to most Tau) unknown ideal that demands unquestioned obedience to. It is not a considered maximization of "ultility" that is pursued by each Tau individually in a ultilitarian reflection of his every action.

Insofar as Utilitarianism is about the "Greatest Happiness", whereas Tau are about the Greater Good, there is a definite connection there, but they are not necessarily the same. I see the Tau "Greater Good" as being more about benefit than happiness. The ideas are clearly linked, but not the same.

Also, although they often (usually, even) go hand-in-hand, a caste system is not necessarily a class system. Caste can define just your role in society rather than your rank or status within it. Admittedly, class and caste usually go hand-in-hand, but not always.

This has been done to death. Anyone with a lick of sense will see that the label 'Space Communists' has no real weight. The idea of a caste system flies directly in the face of communism.

Fifty wrote:Insofar as Utilitarianism is about the "Greatest Happiness", whereas Tau are about the Greater Good, there is a definite connection there, but they are not necessarily the same. I see the Tau "Greater Good" as being more about benefit than happiness. The ideas are clearly linked, but not the same.

Depends on what brand of Utilitarianism you're going for. In some cases the "Greater Good" really is just the greatest amount of happiness for the largest amount of people. In other cases happiness is seen as part of, but not in and of itself, the Greater Good.

Also, although they often (usually, even) go hand-in-hand, a caste system is not necessarily a class system. Caste can define just your role in society rather than your rank or status within it. Admittedly, class and caste usually go hand-in-hand, but not always.

Given in this case that the Ethereal caste are on top, with the Earth caste generally at the bottom, still doesn't help the arguement that Tau are communist.

As much as I like to admit I hate the Tau, they are NOT communist...their ideology is utilitarian, while their social system is virtually identical to the Hindu Caste system.

Actually, it can be said that the Imperium is also utilitarian in a way...with the 'greater good' of mankind (relative to the Imperium) being placed above that of other races, as opposed to the more cosmopolitan Tau Empire.

Simply put:
1) The Imperium
- a theocratic oligarchy that seeks the continued galactic dominance of the Human race (which in a twisted way corresponds to the 'greater good' of Mankind, as the alternative is infinitely worse than the Imperium)
2) Chaos
- theocratic meritocracy (in that followers of Chaos advance by pleasing the Powers of Chaos)
3) Tyranids
- in a twisted way, the Tyranids are perfect communists, as there is no class divisions among the Tyranids, and everything is merely a part of the swarm, to be consumed and used by the Hive Mind as it sees fit - with the consumption of all life being the ultimate goal
4) Eldar
- utopian (at first glance, look deeper and you'll notice a subtler repression similar to the Tau Empire compared to the Imperium) meritocracy, with the survival and eventual re-ascendance of the Eldar as the goal (though not all Eldar agree on the latter)
5) Dark Eldar
- twisted meritocracy with no true 'ultimate' goal
6) Orks
- see Dark Eldar
7) Tau
- utilitarian and cosmopolitan oligarchy - seeks to unite the galaxy under the Greater Good and under the philosopher-king-like Ethereals; utopian and ideal at first glance, but subtly repressive at a closer look
8) Necrons
- oligarchy that seeks to restore Necrontyr ascendance in the galaxy and to stop the Tyranid Invasion; unlike the Imperium and the Eldar, the Necrons (or rather, the Silent King) appear to be prepared to tolerate lesser races, so long as they submit to the Necrontyr

The Tau are certainly not Utilitarian. The Tau Ethereals might be utilitarians. Just as the Emperor of Mankind or the Hivemind(s) of the Tyranids or the 4 Chaos Gods might be utilitarian.

Like all 40K factions, there is preciously little known about the true motivations of those "at the very top".

But from the Ethereals on down, no Tau would dare run a utilitarian "consequences of actions" argument in disagreement with the caste hierarchy or the military chain of command or the Ethereal's will. Hence, no utilitarianism there.

In my view, the caste system is less of a class system and more of a necessity driven by each subset of Tau effectively being a different species (reinforced by selective breeding and role-relegating). I've never heard anything about the Earth being 'at the bottom' - according to the fluff I've read, the four normal castes are equals.

Trasvi wrote:In my view, the caste system is less of a class system and more of a necessity driven by each subset of Tau effectively being a different species (reinforced by selective breeding and role-relegating). I've never heard anything about the Earth being 'at the bottom' - according to the fluff I've read, the four normal castes are equals.

Correct - the four Castes are not only equal to one another, but also to their 'client' races, with only the Ethereals being above them.

The Tau are communist to the extent that communism is a form of state-managed collectivism. The Ethereals make decisions about how to distribute resources within the Empire, supported by a bureaucracy. On a similar vein, the Imperium of Man is a fascist state, not just because they are totalitarian, but also because they have state-managed capitalism - the Imperium's bureaucracy manages the economy, but does it through the creation and organization of businesses, some of which are semi-private. So, economically, the Tau are communists, in that communism = state-managed collectivism.

Of course, there are ways in which they aren't communist. Socially, for example, they are a lot more like confucians, in that they seem to have a culture that focuses on rank, caste, and obligations owed to those above and below you. Remember that although the Tau have a caste system, it's actually a pretty "gentle" caste system. The Fire Caste isn't better than any other caste, they're just the ones tasked with killing gak. Even the Ethereals aren't "superior," they're just "in charge" because they have better logistics and management skills. I mean, sure, if you're a Fire Caste who really likes to tinker with technology or would rather talk to the aliens than shoot them, you're kind of screwed and your life isn't going to be everything you wanted... but it's not like you're a cannon fodder nobody with no hope of advancement. The castes have no - or at least very little - hierarchy outside of the meritocracy of 'la through 'o.

Basically, the Tau are more like an idealized version of Chinese communism than anything else. Chinese communism, but minus the self-inflicted atrocities. Sure, this also ruins the "in communist Tau Empire, Kroot eats you!" jokes.

Where does the utilitarianism come in?

See above, re: "idealized." If communism were to work, it would have to adopt a form of utilitarianism. That's the point. Communism is state-managed collectivism with principles, while capitalism is necessarily unprincipled. In capitalism, the dude who competes the hardest and wins the game wins the resources. In communism, a government body determines who will win the resources. In doing so, it must be guided by some kind of principle, since "give it to the guy who competes the hardest" is already taken. In communist societies that are falling apart, the "principle" is replaced by corruption; in other words, the guy with the best contacts gets the resources. However, in a communist society that's functioning within operational parameters, the decision gets made based on the needs of the many. In other words, utilitarianism. The Tau combine that with a caste-based pseudo-confucian division of labor.

So... where was I going with this? That will teach me to make long and complicated posts right out of bed.

Ah, right. So, the Tau are communists. Not exactly an analogue to any real life communist society, but an amalgam of several, plus some other elements.

More to the point, "blue space commies!" is a lot quippier than "blue space confucian/commie/utilitarians who combine elements of Soviet and Chinese society with a pan-Asian design aesthetic using both contemporary and ancient elements and a somewhat Indian caste-based division of labor!"

ElectricPaladin wrote:The Tau are communist to the extent that communism is a form of state-managed collectivism.

That's wrong from the start. Communism, among other things, aims to overcome the state. It is infact (in the ideal you appeal to) a stateless social order structured around common ownership of the famous means of production. The "state" (or government) in communist ideology is the instrument of oppression and coercion of the few ("the Capital") against the many ("the Labour"). It is a through and through anti-state and anti-government ideology. And the "distribution" of stuff in Communism doesn't follow principles (or hard labour). In the ideal, it simply follows needs.

Zweischneid wrote:

ElectricPaladin wrote:The Tau are communist to the extent that communism is a form of state-managed collectivism.

That's wrong from the start. Communism, among other things, aims to overcome the state. It is infact (in the ideal you appeal to) a stateless social order structured around common ownership of the famous means of production. The "state" (or government) in communist ideology is the instrument of oppression and coercion of the few ("the Capital") against the many ("the Labour"). It is a through and through anti-state and anti-government ideology. And the "distribution" of stuff in Communism doesn't follow principles (or hard labour). In the ideal, it simply follows needs.

The only 40k faction that can be said to ahave achieved that are the Tyranids...unfortunately, they're too busy trying to eat every living thing in the galaxy.

Zweischneid wrote:

ElectricPaladin wrote:The Tau are communist to the extent that communism is a form of state-managed collectivism.

That's wrong from the start. Communism, among other things, aims to overcome the state. It is infact (in the ideal you appeal to) a stateless social order structured around common ownership of the famous means of production. The "state" (or government) in communist ideology is the instrument of oppression and coercion of the few ("the Capital") against the many ("the Labour"). It is a through and through anti-state and anti-government ideology. And the "distribution" of stuff in Communism doesn't follow principles (or hard labour). In the ideal, it simply follows needs.

I'm pretty sure I'm right - but maybe we're operating under slightly different ideas of communism.

Communism is initially constructed as a revolutionary movement. That's why you have to start with anti-state and anti-government rhetoric. However, communists aren't anarchists - that's a whole other movement (I guess there are anarcho-communistsi, though... anyway, they aren't all anarchists). The idea is to take down the oppressive government and setup a new, not oppressive system to manage redistribution of resources after the revolution. Now, there is an extent to which Communism is anti-government, but not in that the idea is to actually live without one. Rather, communists have a deep distrust of government - much like America's tea-baggers :-P. I think a successful communist society would involve a relatively small government, with people generally handing the distribution of resources on their own, in their own communities because they're already "with the program," while a small government guides the process on a meta level.

As far as stuff following need... that's utilitarianism. Things go to people who need them.

ElectricPaladin wrote:. Now, there is an extent to which Communism is anti-government, but not in that the idea is to actually live without one. Rather, communists have a deep distrust of government - much like America's tea-baggers :-P. I think a successful communist society would involve a relatively small government, with people generally handing the distribution of resources on their own, in their own communities because they're already "with the program," while a small government guides the process on a meta level.

As far as stuff following need... that's utilitarianism. Things go to people who need them.

We are not so far apart. Of course there would be a "post-revolutionary" order. But it would not necessarily be one modelled on 20 (21) century conceptions of "states". (considering that it's origins were in a time when the memory of monarchy, and the random shifts of territory and "nationality" of people with arbitrary things like royal weddings or shifting alliances weren't so far removed.. the ubiquity that the concept of "the state" and "the nation" would aquire post-WWII was still a thing of the future. The late 19th century was the era of global mass migration of, by and large, manual labour (who would by the "target group" of communism). The first "passport" that would "tie" individuals to a specific "state" (along with its government) from cradle to grave and restrict travel wasn't invented until about WWI).

Anyhow, it seems we disagree not only on definition of communism, but on definition of ultitarianism. As outlined by early thinkers like John Stuart Mill, it isn't really a "state" (or other collective) philosophy, but more a personal guide for moral decision making, which was (similar to categorical imperative of Kant in the intent) to provide a "non-religious" foundation for "moral" behaviour". I am not even sure it can be "upscaled" to any form of vaguely autocratic society or organisation at all (which all 40K factions are), because it is essentially based around an individual's constant moral reflection of his each and every action with respect to the outcomes to maximise the "happiness" and "utility" overall (and precisely not with respect to imposed authorities of any form which would or could lead to sub-optimal results).

The tau have a clear Orwellian feel to them which people are referencing when the call them space commies; they are not doing it out of ignorance. The tau are not so much being compared to marxist regimes that actually existed (Red China, USSR), but dystopian empires depicted in literature like Animal Farm, 1984, Fahrenheit 451, Utopia, A Brave New World, and etc. The ethereals impose a eugenic style caste system which tau are bred and and born into their jobs, while maintaining their power through mind control - concepts taken straight out of A Brave New World.

The concepts tau embrace, ‘That everyone has to dedicate their lives to the goals of the state and that working for your own self is the the greatest evil imaginable’; is pretty extreme especially considering that the ethereals are the undisputed leaders of the tau forming a racial-based, oligarchical, totalitarian state; just adds to the shadiness people see in the tau empire. I sympathize with people who got into Tau believing they were playing the Johnny Do Goods of the 40K universe; only to be told that their armies are actually pretty tyrannical, but its hard to overlook the Vespid Communion Helms.

Grunt13 wrote:The tau have a clear Orwellian feel to them which people are referencing when the call them space commies; they are not doing it out of ignorance. The tau are not so much being compared to marxist regimes that actually existed (Red China, USSR), but dystopian empires depicted in literature like Animal Farm, 1984, Fahrenheit 451, Utopia, A Brave New World, and etc. The ethereals impose a eugenic style caste system which tau are bred and and born into their jobs, while maintaining their power through mind control - concepts taken straight out of A Brave New World.

The concepts tau embrace, ‘That everyone has to dedicate their lives to the goals of the state and that working for your own self is the the greatest evil imaginable’; is pretty extreme especially considering that the ethereals are the undisputed leaders of the tau forming a racial-based, oligarchical, totalitarian state; just adds to the shadiness people see in the tau empire. I sympathize with people who got into Tau believing they were playing the Johnny Do Goods of the 40K universe; only to be told that their armies are actually pretty tyrannical, but its hard to overlook the Vespid Communion Helms.

You've just pointed out one of the biggest flaws in the Tau fan base. The fan bases of other factions know and accept their favorite's negative actions...Imperial and other non-Tau fans refuse to believe in fluff propaganda that puts them in a good light - they know 40k is a grey and black morality. Thing is, Tau fans lap up the Tau Empire's propaganda that the galaxy is black and white morality, with the Tau being white. That's not true. Culturally, the cultures of the Tau eventually overwrite the cultures of the client races. The Tau look down on the barbaric practices of the Kroot that are supposedly equal. Humans who refuse to accept the Greater Good either get executed of 're-educated', not to mention the suspicious Vespid helmets.

Perhaps the Tau are a bit like communism-as-practiced rather than as-preached. As mentioned above, the Tau seem obsessed with categorizing individuals according to their role in society -- proletariat, intelligentsia, etc. Also the Ethereals remind me a lot of the Leninist vanguard party. The Tau habit of incorporating everyone they come across into their ideological framework is also reminiscent of doctrinaire Marxism -- and the related concept of nationalism/racism subtly undermining egalitarian ideals echoes the experiences of the USSR and PRC.

I guess to really be Communists, Tau would need a lot more rhetoric concerning the means of production and the end of history. But "Communist" as a joking label works pretty well.

Grunt13 wrote:The tau have a clear Orwellian feel to them which people are referencing when the call them space commies; they are not doing it out of ignorance. The tau are not so much being compared to marxist regimes that actually existed (Red China, USSR), but dystopian empires depicted in literature like Animal Farm, 1984, Fahrenheit 451, Utopia, A Brave New World, and etc. The ethereals impose a eugenic style caste system which tau are bred and and born into their jobs, while maintaining their power through mind control - concepts taken straight out of A Brave New World.

The concepts tau embrace, ‘That everyone has to dedicate their lives to the goals of the state and that working for your own self is the the greatest evil imaginable’; is pretty extreme especially considering that the ethereals are the undisputed leaders of the tau forming a racial-based, oligarchical, totalitarian state; just adds to the shadiness people see in the tau empire. I sympathize with people who got into Tau believing they were playing the Johnny Do Goods of the 40K universe; only to be told that their armies are actually pretty tyrannical, but its hard to overlook the Vespid Communion Helms.

Quoted because this is the truth. I made a whole thread about this awhile ago.