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DeathReaper wrote:Because having sails on a Fast Skimmer that has Anti-Grav propulsion would counteract the fact that the vehicle is trying to move very fast. This is why Drag Racers deploy Parachutes after they travel a quarter mile in under 4.8 seconds at a speed around 300 MPH/500KM/H. The parachutes are just big sails meant to slow them down.

While the Aether sails actually compliment the fast vehicle and make it move further. (Per the rules)

well, actually, Lore-Wise they're not wind powered sails or something that would muck with your ability to go really fast, ALL Raiders have Aethersails, the upgrade is for Enhanced Aethersails.

Quite... So if you didn't take the upgrade, you would not be able to draw LOS to it. Correct?

Bloodhorror wrote:Quite... So if you didn't take the upgrade, you would not be able to draw LOS to it. Correct?

you talking to me? because I'm not going to debate with someone unless I know what you're really trying to say. elaborate.

....

If you don't take the Upgrade you can't draw LOS to the Sails.

I'm not really sure how else to elaborate...

Upgraded sails = Function in game = LOS
Unupgraded Sails = Decoration = No LOS

and thats the problem ive been arguing the entire thread.

upgraded sails have ingame effect = LOs valid
non upgraded, no ingame effect = no LOS.
ork wreckingball,grabbaclaws, boarding planks, weapons barrels across multiple styles, (battlecannons, railcannnons, lazcannons, assault cannons etc) are all examples of stuff that has an in game effect (as you measure range and LOS from them) - but they are not valid LOS targets.

so where in your rules does it state "items with in game effects count as viable LOS, but items that LOOK EXACTLY the same but have no in game effect dont count????

please clarify that with a page number.

Bloodhorror wrote:....

If you don't take the Upgrade you can't draw LOS to the Sails.

I'm not really sure how else to elaborate...

Upgraded sails = Function in game = LOS
Unupgraded Sails = Decoration = No LOS

I was asking for more reasoning, but fine. I say you can target it either way. it's a big funtional part of the vehicle, regardless of whether the upgrade is in place or not. like Mannahnin said, it's sorta like the wings of a human Gunship.

I believe one of the major reasons why we are having this disagreement is because we're talking about Sails like we have in our world today, but in this Sci-Fi universe, the Eldar have this mystical nature about them that make the sails a vital part of the construction and some folks don't equate the importance of a 'Wing of a Stormraven' to a 'Sail of a Raider'. heavy damage to either will ruin things for the pilots.

it's this lack of descrimination between Canvas or Nylon Sails when compared to the Dark Eldar Aethersails that had led to thier trivialization as a decorative part of the model. when one of our ships loses a sail it'll take a while till it falls to coasting speed, if a Riader loses it, it's gonna flip out or crash. (if it turbo boosted).

but what would I know? I mean, Raiders still have propulsion turbines and a rudder anyway. the sail only really helps them go really fast but a Voidraven can go even faster without the sails, so *shrug*

"rk wreckingball,grabbaclaws, boarding planks, weapons barrels across multiple styles, (battlecannons, railcannnons, lazcannons, assault cannons etc) are all examples of stuff that has an in game effect (as you measure range and LOS from them) - but they are not valid LOS targets. "

The barrels are not valid LOS targets because the rules specifically state so.

However the first two items you have included with no backing - WHY are you excluding them? Are they decorative? Are they Antenna? No. They are therefore targetable.

even if you dont include the orc upgrades, vehicle weapons are a very clear example of vehicle items that have in game effects, but are not targetable.

nothing in the BRB however mentions "in game effects" as being targetable vrs no in game effect being not targetable.

stating that un upgraded sails are not viable targets, then going to state the upgraded version is, based soley on the argument of "in game effect" is a double standard.

so again, please show me where it states as a rule that in game effects change the validity of targetting a part or portion of the owning vehicle.

I also believe another problem is where people draw the line. you give them a list of what counts and what doesn't but they just don't see the line that's so obvious to you.

wouldn't this mean that if you had two Predators, one having it's turret resting on a wall while the other is out in the open, wouldn't that mean only the one on the wall could fire? is the metal attached to the cannon part of the turret or the hull?

No, it isnt a "double standard", it is based on the list of untargetable items. You know, the actual rules, not your "im sure i've seen a rule about sails..."

Aether sails are nonfunctional items - they are decorative. Whether they are there or not makes no difference. They therefore fit the definition of decorative items that are to be excluded.

Upgraded enhanced aether sails do have an ingame effect, so the line about "decorative items" no longer applies to them - they muyst be modelled to represent the 2D6 item, so are not decorative. So now - find where they are excluded. The standard is it is Hull or Turret unless specifically excluded - and these are not excluded

It is not a double standard - you're just not actually reading the rules correctly

and your argument it appears is based on the fact that the "sail" is purley decorative, even though nothing states it is. your assuming it falls into "antenaes etc" descriptor, based on what? your interpretation of the fact they arent "hull"? sails are clearly a major part of the vehicle, comprising a good percentage of its visible surface area.

so how is it exactly sails are determined as "decorative"? whats the logic there? sails are definitly not, antanes, decorative banner poles, etc) - wich seem to me to be small thin, pointy or otherwise insignificant bits of stuff, like spikey bits and so on, wich the sails do NOT match up with. including sails in this category seems to be grasping at straws and having a pretty loose definition of "decorative banners, etc"

also, there is no mention of "in game effects" mattering for anything. where does it state that having an in game effect matters on the model?

he's not grasping at straws, he really does believe the Aethersails are insignificant, which they're not.

and he says in-game effects matter because they're not decorative once they pass that threshold. I thought that was clear, of course that doesn't matter much to me because I agree with everything else ou've said.

Find a use for the sail. Seriously. Is it a part of the physical hull? No. Does it perform any use in the game? No. It is decorative. Having it there or not has no effect on what the model can do. It is therefore not hull

Again, apparently you dont understand the rules - things are Hull unless they fall into the "decorative" list of exclusions. Something having an ingame effect *cannot* be decorative - because decorative by definition means "has no purpose" , and I *hope* you can at least agree that EAS have a purpose?

So, find where AS have a purpose in game. Then find where AES are decorative. That is the difference between the two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lotet wrote:he's not grasping at straws, he really does believe the Aethersails are insignificant, which they're not.

Theyre not part of the physical, continuous hull. They ARE decorative, as pertains to the game, as they dont actually do anything for the vehicle. They are therefore NOT hull as far as the game is concerned.

but some items of wargear have in game effects, but remain as "untargetable" - gun barrels being a very specfifc example. even when said guns comprise a significant portion of the model. such as tau hammerhead rail guns, lemun russ battle cannons, and even some predator loadouts.

even look at things like searchlights, smoke launchers and so on. if all i can see is your searchlight or smoke launcher, can i shoot at your vehicle? - probally not. yet those items confer in game effects.

"decorative" seems to apply to very simple, smallish things like the examples given. sails, do not really fit that image...its like playing "one of these things is not like the other..." all over again.

"but some items of wargear have in game effects, but remain as "untargetable" - gun barrels being a very specfifc example. even when said guns comprise a significant portion of the model. such as tau hammerhead rail guns, lemun russ battle cannons, and even some predator loadouts. "

Yes, AND? The reason they are untargetable is because they are SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED from being hull or turret. Otherwise they WOULD be included as hull or turret, as they are not decorative.

ok but there is a precedent rule for "non targetable in game effect items" but, no example for sails being "decorative". the examples of decorative are things like flag poles, banners, antanaes and so on! your taking very liberal use with the "etc/so on" part of that rule.

No, there is a specific exemption for a specific set of items - barrels. Sails are not mentioned, so you go by "decorative" - and very literally AS have NO function, and are therefore decorative.

Ruleswise they are decorative and are not hull. Ruleswise EAS are not decorative and so are not included on the list of exclusions, so are hull.

Blame GW for writing a poorly defined exclusionary list that excludes one but not the other.

the picture here is an example of what is meant by decorative banners, poles and so on. the sails are clearly NOT part of that example.

So, you're saying the Sails are functional?

as much as the rudder.

Some posts in this thread sound like people making up rules that conveniance themselves.

Its like declaring the exhaust vents on the back of a sentinel as decorative. They both serve a propulsion use, they both are essential when building the model yet neither of them have a rule use. Yet we both know that the sentinels exhaust ports are hull.

I mean its annoying that my vehicles can be shot by all the spikes and sails poking out of terrain but damn it we get 4+ flat out save, 5+ invul, -6" enemy range plus 4+ obscured.

Also there is no rule that says that a part of wargear counts as hull.

im saying they are a significant portion of the model, and the fluff indicates they help the raider navigate and move, much like engines and so on. and using real world information, you shred or destroy a sail boats sail....its generally not going to perform very well afterwards. also.... look at other "sail" style items. hang gliders, parachutes etc. punch holes in them, tear them up and they do not perform as they should, in some cases failing altogether. but again, thats just my opinion.

but the point i am making, is your taking a rather extended view of the word decorative. yes, its non functioning "additions, but its a fine line. poles, banners and so on are decorative optional items that really dont change the profile or surface area of the vehicle. sails, on the other hand DO change that. effectivly comprising about 15-30% of visibile surface area of the vehicle. whereas a banner, pole, spikey bit, and so on does not.

having said poles and banners on or off the vehicle does not really change its in game apparence, whereas leaving the sails off the vehicle, does.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"rk wreckingball,grabbaclaws, boarding planks, weapons barrels across multiple styles, (battlecannons, railcannnons, lazcannons, assault cannons etc) are all examples of stuff that has an in game effect (as you measure range and LOS from them) - but they are not valid LOS targets. "

The barrels are not valid LOS targets because the rules specifically state so.

However the first two items you have included with no backing - WHY are you excluding them? Are they decorative? Are they Antenna? No. They are therefore targetable.

So you measure to/from a def roller? Interesting.

Yes - a deff rolla certainly should be hull.

Darth - the point you are making lacks substance in rules, whereas I am applying them exactly. The rules excludes decorative items. In game the sails have zero function. They are decorative. They are not obviously hull, as would normally be meant by "hull", and so cannot be shot at.

So by the "function = LOS" rule, LOS can be drawn to a Hunter-Killer Missile. It is not a gun barrel and certainly isn't decorative. Same with a Dozer Blade.

Homer

Homer S wrote:So by the "function = LOS" rule, LOS can be drawn to a Hunter-Killer Missile. It is not a gun barrel and certainly isn't decorative. Same with a Dozer Blade.

Homer

I don't agree with the sails being decorative, but @ Homer, page 56 specifically says to ignore dozer blades. Sorry.

sigh. once again the term "decorative" applies to such items as highlighted in my pic i put up earlier. sails... not so much. having an in game effect or not does not automatically make something decorative, and therefore not eligible.

this might be RAI but im pretty sure sails are not meant as decorative items.

but if you feel so strongley about it, leave the sails off your raiders, and deal with the crys of WAAC and modelling for advantage.

and you have still not provided a rule that states "no in game effect = decorative" your simply assuming that rule based on the "etc" clause of a single sentance in a paragraph consisting of a few examples of the same type. (again as pointed out in my picture above). either way its a RAI interpretation, and NOT RAW.

Lets look at the dictionary definition of "hull" real quick. Yes, I know the dictionary isn't in the rules but I think the answer is clear when people are reminded of what a hull is.

Hull - the main body of a ship/vessel, including the bottom, sides, and deck but not the masts, superstructure, riggings, engines, or other fittings.

Now, the rulebook state that LoS is draw to the hull, as we all know. The rulebook assumes we know what a hull is, which we do for the most part. Where the rulebook lists things such as antenna and other decorative bits as not counting, it is, in a way, reinforcing that basic definition except in terms of 40k. Granted, not EVERY example of things that don't count as the hull will be mentioned. There are just too many. So, GW gave us just a few examples. based on the above, I'd say that sails definitely fall into the "non hull" category and here's why. Lets assume that you DID take the upgrade and some punk long fang hits your sail with a missile. Will the vehicle crash and burn? nope. there'd just be a small hole in your sail. Now, in the game, we obviously can't target individual pieces of a vehicles. This example shows that although a sail is part of the vehicle, it's destruction would have no impact on if the vehicle lives or not. besides, dark eldar vehicles use real engines for propulsion, not silly sails.

Here's another example, one that has been FAQed and that we all agree on. The dozer blade. Lets say that said long fang turns around and shoots his ride's dozer blade. Will the blade take damage realistically? yes. will the vehicle? no. Hence, the FAQ rules that dozer blades do not count for LOS/as part of the hull since it is an extra fitting and not a part of the actual vehicle.

just my two cents

Posters have tried to use dictionary definitions to prove that the prow is/is not part of the hull. Regardless of what a dictionary states, if the item in question is not a dozer blade, gun turret, decorative item, etc, it is hull.

Happyjew wrote:Posters have tried to use dictionary definitions to prove that the prow is/is not part of the hull. Regardless of what a dictionary states, if the item in question is not a dozer blade, gun turret, decorative item, etc, it is hull.

It's an etc.. then!