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When it comes to true line of sight for shooting a raider, are the sails able to be targeted? If not... why?

Sails are not Hull, so you can not target them.

Edit: I thought there was an FaQ that stated this, now I am not finding it, Did they remove it?

However Aether sails would be targetable, as they are not decorative - they have an in game purpose.

I have the old models, so what part on the new ones (if it even comes with one) is the aethersails? I just want to make sure that what I use for my custom aethersails is close enough in size for the existing model.

Sails don't count (even Aether sails). It's the Hull and Turret of any vehicle only. P60 very first sentence.

A Leman Russ battle cannon barrel has an in game purpose, but it still doesn't count for targeting. Unless there's something listed in the Aether Sails rules.

Grendel - reread it. Note it excludes what ISNT hull, making everything else hull. Now, is an aethersail a decorative item? No, because it has an ingame effect - the 2D6" extra move.

Meaning it is hull.

I've re-read it and I stand by my statement.

It gives a few examples of things are aren't covered (gun barrels, antennas, decorative banner poles, etc), it's not an exhaustive list ( note the 'etc'). Some of those have an in game use, some don't. Just because something has a use doesn't make it part of the hull.

A searchlight has an in game use, it is not part of the hull.

And ork wrecking ball or boarding plank has an in game use, they are not part of the hull.

The Hull is the body of the vehicle, sails are attached to the hull, they are not the hull whether they have an game use or not.

im pretty sure the rulebook mentions that sails are not hull, along with weapon barrels, antenaes, impressive wings etc.

the argument that "it has in game effect so its hull" is based on what statment of the brb?

to counter that... weapons all have in game effects. you measure your firing range from them, and determine LOS from them, NOT the vehicle hull. very much an in game effect, but you still cant target them when shooting.

aethersails have an effect but are STILL sails, and work the same as the ones provided on the kit. by definition they are still a sail, and lacking a specific rule that states items with "in game effects" count as hull... well sorry but no dice targeting them.

It lists "decorative elements" - it is not decorative if it performs a function.

It lists other things as well, things that arn't decorative. Things that have a function.

What it doesn't say is things with a function are counted as part of the hull.

where does it say performing a function is not decorative and therefore targetable via LOS? pg number for that rule pls.

because based on that argment, guns would be targetable. ork wrecking balls, boarding planks, SM pintle weapons (with crew on top) and so on. all targetable, because they are performing functions.

so please... provide a page number source for the rule that states "all items or features of a vehicle that perform a function are hull or ottherwise targetable".

the rule excluding SAILS and other decorative elements including gun barrels, etc has been provided and refrenced above.

"
the rule excluding SAILS and other decorative elements including gun barrels, etc has been provided and refrenced above. "

Wrong, it hasnt. See page 60. No mention made of SAILS (your caps) there.

Hull or turret, and then lists exclusions. Is an Aethersail on that list? No. Is it hull? Yes.

The question is, would you be able to draw LOS to the sail if there was no aether sail upgrade? The answer is no because it's a decorative element of the model.

Point out the rule that states as soon as something is taken as an upgrade, LOS can be drawn to it.

If something cannot be used to draw LOS to before it becomes an upgrade, it can't be used to draw LOS to after it becomes an upgrade.

It does not list all exclusions. There's an 'etc' in there.

The legs on a walker have a function. They are not part of the body.

The Hull is the body of the vehicle, sails are not. Doesn't matter if they're decorative or have an in game function.

I'm a dark eldar player and if someone can only see the sail of my raider/ravager I would let them, but I would have a cover save

it is part of the model, it's like saying oh no this guy has a tail, but it provides nothing in game therefore you cant shoot at him if thats all you can see

I guess if people were that worried about it you could leave the sails off. Or discuss with the opponent beforehand what counts as hull.

For example I dont include the pointy shock prow for measuring distances and I let people know this at the start of the game.

Actually Hukoseft that's the case, it is laid out in the rulebook on page 16, I'll even post it so you can see it

Sometimes, all that may be visible of a model is a weapon, an antenna, a banner or some other ornament he is wearing or carrying (including its wings and tail, even though they are technically part of its body). In these cases, the model is not visible. These rules are intended to ensure that models don’t get penalised for having impressive standards, blades, guns, majestic wings, etc.

That means if you've been playing that way, it's actually playing it wrong according to the rules of the book.

I also play Dark Eldar. And I play that the sails are indeed part of the model. I also play that the prow is also part of the model.

I discuss both of these facts with my opponent before the match and if they have a problem with it I just adjust my strategy.

Each configuration has its plusses and minuses.

The sail is hull so it can be targetted. The sail is hull so I can disembark within 2" of the top of the sail, gaining top floors of most of the ruins I play with.

The prow is part of the hull so I can disembark within 2" of it. The prow is part of the hull so the enemy's weapons can measure range to it.

One thing I insist on is if the sail is part of the hull, then the prow is too.

And conversly if the prow is not part of the hull, then neither is the sail.

I think this is a fair compromise.

time wizard wrote:I also play Dark Eldar. And I play that the sails are indeed part of the model. I also play that the prow is also part of the model.

I discuss both of these facts with my opponent before the match and if they have a problem with it I just adjust my strategy.

Each configuration has its plusses and minuses.

The sail is hull so it can be targetted. The sail is hull so I can disembark within 2" of the top of the sail, gaining top floors of most of the ruins I play with.

The prow is part of the hull so I can disembark within 2" of it. The prow is part of the hull so the enemy's weapons can measure range to it.

One thing I insist on is if the sail is part of the hull, then the prow is too.

And conversly if the prow is not part of the hull, then neither is the sail.

I think this is a fair compromise.

That seems like a reasonable stance, I would be perfectly willing to allow you to count them both, I kind of think it would be funny to watch things disembark from the top of a sail into the upper levels of a ruins.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

time wizard wrote:I also play Dark Eldar. And I play that the sails are indeed part of the model. I also play that the prow is also part of the model.

I discuss both of these facts with my opponent before the match and if they have a problem with it I just adjust my strategy.

Each configuration has its plusses and minuses.

The sail is hull so it can be targetted. The sail is hull so I can disembark within 2" of the top of the sail, gaining top floors of most of the ruins I play with.

The prow is part of the hull so I can disembark within 2" of it. The prow is part of the hull so the enemy's weapons can measure range to it.

One thing I insist on is if the sail is part of the hull, then the prow is too.

And conversly if the prow is not part of the hull, then neither is the sail.

I think this is a fair compromise.

That seems like a reasonable stance, I would be perfectly willing to allow you to count them both, I kind of think it would be funny to watch things disembark from the top of a sail into the upper levels of a ruins.

Yeah I think that sounds pretty reasonable.

i play simaler.

my argument is, however how can people claim that the normal sails do not provide a valid LOS target, but aethersails DO, simply because they have in game function? a sail is a sail. simply having an in game function should not qualify it for being LOS viable or not. its a double standard. either sails are valid in all forms, and should be allowed as targets, or they shouldnt.

none of this "well its got a in game effect so it is, but that one dosent so it dont"

in game effects exist on other aspects of vehicles that do not provide a valid LOS target.

- also im pretty sure i saw somewhere that sails do not count for TLOS, but to the life of me i can't locate it. i just read the DE and brb FAQ's twice each and came up empty. also the BRB a few times and again nothing.

anyway, i usualy allow shooting at my sails but if its all thats visible i claim cover, and if its just a tip or portion of, no dice. likewise i use the prow for measuring ranges in movment, disembarking etc, but also for getting charged, and its a valid section to measure range to shoot at. my only argument here is the "in game effect" thing. apologies if i did not make that clear.

As a Dark Eldar player myself, we discuss this before game. Amongst my group of friends the sail can be fired at if that's all they can see, although they must be able to see over 50% of the sail. If they can indeed see over 50% of the sail (and just the sail), we've ruled the Raider/Ravager gains a 3+ cover save.

This provides the best compromise for our group, seeing as this rarely comes up in games.

We have played as time wizard states, for all vehicles.

e.g. Deff-rolla can be shot and disembarked from, or not - it is never yes to part of it.

And generally, it counts.

The sail is part of the "hull" per the definition of hull in the 40k rules.

You are told to ignore gun barrels, antennae, and decorative banner poles "etc.". IME the "etc" is normally read to refer only to purely decorative extras added to the model for the sake of appearance.

Any functioning part of a vehicle other than those items specifically exempted is a legitimate target. A sail on a DE skimmer is as much a target as a wing or tail flap is on a stormraven or valkrie.

right. and thats not a problem.... the issue i was raising was to the statments earlier that indicated sails could not be shot, but aethersails could, because the aethersails "had an in game effect" and that was the reason they could be shot at.

I agree with you on that; I can see the rationale behind which he was making that determination, but I think he erred in thinking that the regular sails are just decorative.

A regular sail does not seem like Hull to me. On a Anti-grav driven vehicle the sail seems decorative, since the normal sail does not do anything.

That may be more of the fluff side of things though.

how can you think the sails aren't a vital part of the vehicle? and thus hull worthy. I'm pretty sure it would need them to function properly. then again, in my last game my sails protected an allied Dread Knight from a Lascannon barrage from a Vendetta Gunship, but that makes even less sense.

Because having sails on a Fast Skimmer that has Anti-Grav propulsion would counteract the fact that the vehicle is trying to move very fast. This is why Drag Racers deploy Parachutes after they travel a quarter mile in under 4.8 seconds at a speed around 300 MPH/500KM/H. The parachutes are just big sails meant to slow them down.

While the Aether sails actually compliment the fast vehicle and make it move further. (Per the rules)

Speaking of LOS, would the Turret of a Baal Predator count as a something you could draw LOS to and fire at? I know it's almost definitely correct but I just want to make sure.