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time wizard wrote:So then the rules that reference the start of the Librarian's Shooting and Assault phase must also mean the start of the Librarian player's phase, meaning it must be the first action, correct?

Correct.

So now take a force that has 2 Librarians. At the start of the marine player's Movement phase, 1 Librarian uses gate of infinity. The other Librarian is now prevented from using gate of infinity because the marine player is no longer at the "beginning" of the Movement phase?

There are multiple examples of a number of things happening at the beginning of a player's movement phase. Reserves, for example - you must roll for reserves at the start of your movement phase. If you GoI, using your interpretation, you cannot roll for reserves.

See the problem?

No.

It's a queue. GoI #1, GoI #2, Roll for Reserves, resolve reserves, start moving. Have something else that happens at the beginning of the movement phase? Insert it in the queue.

time wizard wrote:Are all of these powers required to be the very first action the marine player can make in any given phase?

time wizard wrote:So then the rules that reference the start of the Librarian's Shooting and Assault phase must also mean the start of the Librarian player's phase, meaning it must be the first action, correct?

I would take "start of the Movement Phase" to be during the Movement Phase, but before you select and move your units that are (already) on the table. The only remaining question is how this works with other abilities/effects that occur during this period, such as arrival of reserves. Which one happens first?

elrabin wrote:I would take "start of the Movement Phase" to be during the Movement Phase, but before you select and move your units that are (already) on the table. The only remaining question is how this works with other abilities/effects that occur during this period, such as arrival of reserves. Which one happens first?

But "during the phase" is after the start of the phase.

A player rolls for reserves at the start of their (the player's) Movement phase.

After this, units that arrive from reserve move onto the board, so clearly the start of the phase has been passed.

After that, other units can be moved as normal.

Other than the Librarian's powers I listed, is there any other model or any other army that references a power that is used at the srart of a aingular model's Movement or other phase?

I don't personally own every codex so this is just a question here, not a "smart-a$$" challenge, please don't take it that way!

rigeld2 wrote:It's a queue. GoI #1, GoI #2, Roll for Reserves, resolve reserves, start moving. Have something else that happens at the beginning of the movement phase? Insert it in the queue.

So, you are saying 2, but using 1 to have other things able to occur before reserves?
Or can the GoI unit move - if the power fails, for example?

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:It's a queue. GoI #1, GoI #2, Roll for Reserves, resolve reserves, start moving. Have something else that happens at the beginning of the movement phase? Insert it in the queue.

So, you are saying 2, but using 1 to have other things able to occur before reserves?
Or can the GoI unit move - if the power fails, for example?

Sure it can move if GoI doesn't work. He wouldn't be able to if GoI worked because he Deep Strike'd.

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:It's a queue. GoI #1, GoI #2, Roll for Reserves, resolve reserves, start moving. Have something else that happens at the beginning of the movement phase? Insert it in the queue.

So, you are saying 2, but using 1 to have other things able to occur before reserves?
Or can the GoI unit move - if the power fails, for example?

Sure it can move if GoI doesn't work. He wouldn't be able to if GoI worked because he Deep Strike'd.

Maybe I could have asked better - can they move when you say "start moving?"

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:It's a queue. GoI #1, GoI #2, Roll for Reserves, resolve reserves, start moving. Have something else that happens at the beginning of the movement phase? Insert it in the queue.

So, you are saying 2, but using 1 to have other things able to occur before reserves?
Or can the GoI unit move - if the power fails, for example?

Sure it can move if GoI doesn't work. He wouldn't be able to if GoI worked because he Deep Strike'd.

Maybe I could have asked better - can they move when you say "start moving?"

If GoI fails, yes. If GoI works, they've already moved that phase and page 10 prevents you from going back and re-moving them.

time wizard wrote:But "during the phase" is after the start of the phase.

No it's not. The "start" of the phase isn't clearly defined. It obviously is part of the phase (otherwise the language would say "before the movement phase"), so the only question is at what point is it no longer the "start" of the movement phase.

The widely accepted standard is that the start of your movement phase ends when you start moving models. But it's not defined in the rules.

biccat wrote:
No it's not. The "start" of the phase isn't clearly defined. It obviously is part of the phase (otherwise the language would say "before the movement phase"), so the only question is at what point is it no longer the "start" of the movement phase.

The widely accepted standard is that the start of your movement phase ends when you start moving models. But it's not defined in the rules.

Exactly. And for that matter, the ends of the Movement and Assault phases are not defined, either.

elrabin wrote:
Exactly. And for that matter, the ends of the Movement and Assault phases are not defined, either.

Bad news for the Necrons then, as they roll for reanimation protocols and ever-lining "at the end of the phase".

So now more silliness, if we can't define the end of the phase the Necrons can't make their rolls?

Does the rulbook have to actually say when you have finished moving your units the Movement phase has ended?

Or is it easier to know that once you start the Shooting phase, that the Movement phase has ended?

biccat wrote:The widely accepted standard is that the start of your movement phase ends when you start moving models. But it's not defined in the rules.

Okay, because the rule on page 95 says at the start of the Movement phase before moving any unit, you roll for reserves.

So after that are you still at the start of the turn? Do you stay at the start until you somehow declare that you're not at the start anymore?

Makes no sense.

time wizard wrote:Okay, because the rule on page 95 says at the start of the Movement phase before moving any unit, you roll for reserves.

So after that are you still at the start of the turn? Do you stay at the start until you somehow declare that you're not at the start anymore?

Obviously the "start of the movement phase" includes the period between the instant when the movement phase begins and the instant when you move the first model...but does it extend beyond that? No idea. Nor is it defined in the rules.

We know that the "movement phase" is between the end of the preceding turn (or start of the game) and subsequent shooting phase, but it's not broken out into "start" and "end."

Which is why we use the convention of the "start" being before you move and the "end" being after you move. If you really want to argue with your Necron opponent that the "start" of the phase doesn't end until some ambiguous time and that the "end" of the phase is congruent with the end of the phase, thereby prohibiting any further action (including his reanimation rolls), go ahead.

biccat wrote: If you really want to argue with your Necron opponent that the "start" of the phase doesn't end until some ambiguous time and that the "end" of the phase is congruent with the end of the phase, thereby prohibiting any further action (including his reanimation rolls), go ahead.

No, that's not what I'm advocating.

My point is that you either can say that there is no "Librarian's Movement (or other) phase" so that the Librarian can never use those powers, or take the approach that the "Librarian's Movement (or other) phase" simply means when the Librarian initiates an action during the player's phase.

time wizard wrote:

biccat wrote: If you really want to argue with your Necron opponent that the "start" of the phase doesn't end until some ambiguous time and that the "end" of the phase is congruent with the end of the phase, thereby prohibiting any further action (including his reanimation rolls), go ahead.

No, that's not what I'm advocating.

My point is that you either can say that there is no "Librarian's Movement (or other) phase" so that the Librarian can never use those powers, or take the approach that the "Librarian's Movement (or other) phase" simply means when the Librarian initiates an action during the player's phase.

Why are you saying that when it's just as easy (and to me, more correct) to read it as the "Librarian (player's) Movement phase"? Instead of changing the definition of movement phase, use the only current definition we have.

time wizard wrote:Does the rulbook have to actually say when you have finished moving your units the Movement phase has ended?

Or is it easier to know that once you start the Shooting phase, that the Movement phase has ended?

More importantly, how can you be sure you are ever able to start the Shooting Phase? There's no wording on how long the Movement Phase lasts, or that you can proceed to the Shooting Phase once you have moved everything you want to move.

time wizard wrote:So now more silliness, if we can't define the end of the phase the Necrons can't make their rolls?

Morale checks are performed at the end of the phase as well, but Reanimation Protocols are performed after Morale Checks in the same phase. Which means Morale checks weren't actually rolled at the end of the phase. So we have a contradiction. The only way to resolve this is to treat "at end of the phase" as "after you have completed all of your actions for the phase but before moving on to the next phase or player turn."

Speaking of morale checks...is Fall Back! from a failed morale check performed during the current phase, in the next phase, or between phases? If it's in the current phase, and Jump Infantry suffer 25% casualties from dangerous terrain during this Fall back! move, do they have to take another morale check (seeing as there will be a second "At end of phase" condition)?

rigeld2 wrote:Why are you saying that when it's just as easy (and to me, more correct) to read it as the "Librarian (player's) Movement phase"? Instead of changing the definition of movement phase, use the only current definition we have.

Because then 2 different librarians can not both cast GoI, or do anything after reserves have moved onto the board.
Since

biccat wrote:The widely accepted standard is that the start of your movement phase ends when you start moving models. But it's not defined in the rules.

So you roll reserves, and you have to bring them on the table, and since the "start of your movement phase ends when you start moving models" this all happens before you are allowed to cast GoI you would never be able to cast GoI on a turn when anything arrives from reserve.

That is clearly silly.

Both #1 and #2 can be correct by the RAW.

Playing it as #2 causes 0 issues. Playing it as #1 causes all sorts of issues.

Occam's Razor tells us that the simpler explanation should be the one we select.

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Why are you saying that when it's just as easy (and to me, more correct) to read it as the "Librarian (player's) Movement phase"? Instead of changing the definition of movement phase, use the only current definition we have.

Because then 2 different librarians can not both cast GoI, or do anything after reserves have moved onto the board.

Not true. As I said, there are multiple examples of "stacking" beginning of phase events.
But yes - GoI after reserves have moved on wouldn't work. I don't see any conflicts with that.

DeathReaper wrote:
Playing it as #2 causes 0 issues. Playing it as #1 causes all sorts of issues.

Playing it either way doesn't cause any problems.

RAW there are problems both ways. For #2, if every unit has its own Movement Phase, do you roll for Morale (etc) when you complete movement for each unit (if you were to take losses due to Dangerous Terrain). Extending this to other phases (because there are similar powers for Shooting and Assault phases), does each unit have their own Shooting and Assault phase?

DeathReaper wrote:So you roll reserves, and you have to bring them on the table, and since the "start of your movement phase ends when you start moving models" this all happens before you are allowed to cast GoI you would never be able to cast GoI on a turn when anything arrives from reserve.

That assumes that reserves preempts GOI. If reserves signals the end of the "start of the movement phase," then anything that occurs during the "start of the movement phase" must necessarily preempt reserves. No conflict.

Note that I'm using "moving" here to mean regular moves, not moves from GOI or placing reserves onto the board. Because yes, GOI preempting reserves would be silly.

DeathReaper wrote:Both #1 and #2 can be correct by the RAW.

I think you're correct here.

DeathReaper wrote:Playing it as #2 causes 0 issues. Playing it as #1 causes all sorts of issues.

I disagree here. There are certainly issues raised by playing it as #2. Specifically that the "librarian's movement phase" doesn't start until you actually move him, thereby making GOI illegal.

You're not obligated to move a unit until you actually move it (see the discussion on measuring). Therefore, the unit's "movement phase" doesn't start until you actually start moving the model. But at that point, are you still at the "start" of the movement phase? I don't think so, at least as commonly accepted.

DeathReaper wrote:Occam's Razor tells us that the simpler explanation should be the one we select.

Not to drag this too far off topic, but Occam's Razor actually tells us to use #1. Using #2 requires that we define a new event (the start of the Librarian's movement phase) that's not in the core rules. #1 only requires that we substitute "controlling player" for "librarian," which we already have precedent for.

time wizard wrote:

biccat wrote: If you really want to argue with your Necron opponent that the "start" of the phase doesn't end until some ambiguous time and that the "end" of the phase is congruent with the end of the phase, thereby prohibiting any further action (including his reanimation rolls), go ahead.

No, that's not what I'm advocating.

My point is that you either can say that there is no "Librarian's Movement (or other) phase" so that the Librarian can never use those powers, or take the approach that the "Librarian's Movement (or other) phase" simply means when the Librarian initiates an action during the player's phase.

Sorry for missing the point of your post.

But I'm not saying there's no "Librarian's Movement phase" (or other), rather that the "Librarian's Movement phase" (or other) is the same as the controlling player's phases.

DeathReaper wrote:Occam's Razor tells us that the simpler explanation should be the one we select.

This isn't necessarily true. It is explained in full why "Simplest is best" is not always right, here:

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Occam.html

biccat wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:So you roll reserves, and you have to bring them on the table, and since the "start of your movement phase ends when you start moving models" this all happens before you are allowed to cast GoI you would never be able to cast GoI on a turn when anything arrives from reserve.

That assumes that reserves preempts GOI. If reserves signals the end of the "start of the movement phase," then anything that occurs during the "start of the movement phase" must necessarily preempt reserves. No conflict.

Note that I'm using "moving" here to mean regular moves, not moves from GOI or placing reserves onto the board. Because yes, GOI preempting reserves would be silly.

And thus anything that happens at the start of the movement phase (Like you are trying to claim is when GoI is used), can not be used whenever any reserves arrive from reserve and walk onto the table edge, since anything arriving and walking on is that units movement and thus the start of the movement phase is now over since you have moved a unit.

biccat wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Playing it as #2 causes 0 issues. Playing it as #1 causes all sorts of issues.

I disagree here. There are certainly issues raised by playing it as #2. Specifically that the "librarian's movement phase" doesn't start until you actually move him, thereby making GOI illegal.

You're not obligated to move a unit until you actually move it (see the discussion on measuring). Therefore, the unit's "movement phase" doesn't start until you actually start moving the model. But at that point, are you still at the "start" of the movement phase? I don't think so, at least as commonly accepted.

Since GoI is cast at the start of the "librarian's movement phase" GoI is not illegal if you cast it before actually move him since ""librarian's movement phase" doesn't start until you actually move him""

biccat wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Occam's Razor tells us that the simpler explanation should be the one we select.

Not to drag this too far off topic, but Occam's Razor actually tells us to use #1. Using #2 requires that we define a new event (the start of the Librarian's movement phase) that's not in the core rules. #1 only requires that we substitute "controlling player" for "librarian," which we already have precedent for.

All #2 does is differentiate the players movement phase into mini unit movement phases. once you start a units movement (Phase if you will) then you must complete that units movement before starting another units movement phase.

By the language of "librarian's movement phase" it tells us that it is something different than the "player's movement phase" so it is simpler to assume that each unit has its own movement phase as a part of the players movement phase, because of the wording of GoI.

With strict reading of #1 you can only ever do any 1 thing that states at the start of <Movement,Shooting,Assault> phase, as once you do any one thing, you are no longer at the start of the <Movement,Shooting,Assault> phase. So that takes complex "Stacking" of rules that has no wording in the brb of how that would actually work, and thus can not be the simpler choice.

All in all Talk it out with your opponent pregame, or Ask the TO if you are in a tournament.

It really only matters in a very small select group of circumstances which will not come up much within the scope of most games that are played.

DeathReaper wrote:And thus anything that happens at the start of the movement phase (Like you are trying to claim is when GoI is used), can not be used whenever any reserves arrive from reserve and walk onto the table edge, since anything arriving and walking on is that units movement and thus the start of the movement phase is now over since you have moved a unit.

Why? Nothing in the Reserves rule says when the "start of the movement phase" ends. Resolve GOI first, then reserves, then start regular movement. No problems.

DeathReaper wrote:Since GoI is cast at the start of the "librarian's movement phase" GoI is not illegal if you cast it before actually move him since ""librarian's movement phase" doesn't start until you actually move him""

Except, as I pointed out, the movement phase doesn't start until you move him. The "start of the librarian's movement phase" is the exact moment that you move the librarian. At this point, you have moved the librarian, and it's too late to do GOI. Unless you want to argue that you can move the librarian and then cast GOI, but I don't think that is correct.

DeathReaper wrote:so it is simpler to assume that each unit has its own movement phase as a part of the players movement phase, because of the wording of GoI.

At which point you're creating a new rule, arguing that the GOI rule implicitly creates a "start" of an individual movement phase. This isn't wholly unsupported, but it's not the simplest answer.

DeathReaper wrote:With strict reading of #1 you can only ever do any 1 thing that states at the start of <Movement,Shooting,Assault> phase, as once you do any one thing, you are no longer at the start of the <Movement,Shooting,Assault> phase. So that takes complex "Stacking" of rules that has no wording in the brb of how that would actually work, and thus can not be the simpler choice.

No, you can do multiple things at the "start" of the phase. The start of each phase is a continuum, not an instant.

DeathReaper wrote:It really only matters in a very small select group of circumstances which will not come up much within the scope of most games that are played.

Isn't that the point of YMDC? Bringing up absurd rules issues that will never occur except under a very select set of circumstances?

biccat wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:With strict reading of #1 you can only ever do any 1 thing that states at the start of <Movement,Shooting,Assault> phase, as once you do any one thing, you are no longer at the start of the <Movement,Shooting,Assault> phase. So that takes complex "Stacking" of rules that has no wording in the brb of how that would actually work, and thus can not be the simpler choice.

No, you can do multiple things at the "start" of the phase. The start of each phase is a continuum, not an instant.

Page reference please.

That is exactly the point.

The start of any phase is just that, when you start the phase. once you have done anything it is no longer the start of the phase, as you have performed an action and it is now no longer the start of it, as you have to be in the phase to perform actions that happen in that phase.

biccat wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:And thus anything that happens at the start of the movement phase (Like you are trying to claim is when GoI is used), can not be used whenever any reserves arrive from reserve and walk onto the table edge, since anything arriving and walking on is that units movement and thus the start of the movement phase is now over since you have moved a unit.

Why? Nothing in the Reserves rule says when the "start of the movement phase" ends. Resolve GOI first, then reserves, then start regular movement. No problems.

Re-read P.94. The reserves arrive before moving any unit. and they move onto the table as described.

Resolving GoI first would be moving the librarians unit.

DeathReaper wrote:The start of any phase is just that, when you start the phase. once you have done anything it is no longer the start of the phase, as you have performed an action and it is now no longer the start of it, as you have to be in the phase to perform actions that happen in that phase.

Page reference please.

You're saying that the "start" of the phase is an instant. Does that mean you can only ever do one thing at the start (or end) of any phase? Does that mean Necrons can't come back if someone has to take a morale test, because morale tests are done at the end of the phase?

Treating the "start" as an instant doesn't work, because it proves too much. If you treat it as a period of time (between the actual beginning of the phase until the first movement), you solve the current problem and avoid creating new ones.

Re-read P.94. The reserves arrive before moving any unit. and they move onto the table as described.

DeathReaper wrote:Resolving GoI first would be moving the librarians unit.

The librarians unit doesn't "move" as defined in the rules, it deepstrikes.

biccat wrote:The librarians unit doesn't "move" as defined in the rules, it deepstrikes.

It is (when using GoI) removed from the tabletop and placed back within 24".

Page 11 says a player may move any of his units up to their maximum movement distance in his turn.

Being placed back within 24" sure sounds like moving up to a maximum movement distance then.

And the Librarian doesn't deep strike per se, it (and its unit if applicable) are placed on the table "...using the deep strike rules." Unless the Librarian has terminator armor it can't deepstrike, but wearing power armor it can certainly follow the deep strike rules.

biccat wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The start of any phase is just that, when you start the phase. once you have done anything it is no longer the start of the phase, as you have performed an action and it is now no longer the start of it, as you have to be in the phase to perform actions that happen in that phase.

Page reference please.

You're saying that the "start" of the phase is an instant. Does that mean you can only ever do one thing at the start (or end) of any phase? Does that mean Necrons can't come back if someone has to take a morale test, because morale tests are done at the end of the phase?

Treating the "start" as an instant doesn't work, because it proves too much. If you treat it as a period of time (between the actual beginning of the phase until the first movement), you solve the current problem and avoid creating new ones.

Re-read P.94. The reserves arrive before moving any unit. and they move onto the table as described..

There are no pages either way. so we have to figure out how it works.

biccat wrote:The librarians unit doesn't "move" as defined in the rules, it deepstrikes.

And A DS is a move.

DeathReaper wrote:

biccat wrote:The librarians unit doesn't "move" as defined in the rules, it deepstrikes.

And A DS is a move.

And you're resolving a power. That's not a move during the movement phase, that's resolving GoI.

rigeld2 wrote:And you're resolving a power. That's not a move during the movement phase, that's resolving GoI.

Very similar to IG Orders. You Order a unti to shoot (with Fire on my Target for example), you then resolve that unit's shooting, then issue the next order. Even though a unit has fired it is still within 'Issuing Orders' part of the shooting phase (and in a similar manar must be done at the start of the shooting phase).

I agree. The start of the movement phase means the beginning, just as the end of a phase means the end, but as there are multiple things that can and must happen at the beginning or end of a phase, clearly they must all be able to happen.

So the only sensible way (to my mind) to resolve that is to say that all things which happen at "the start of the movement phase" must be resolved before anything else which happens during the movement phase.

Coincidentally, this also happens to be the way the INAT rules it, which answers Tirumbar's original question.

Richard: Your answer is on page 4 of the INAT.

RB.09.02- Q. How does a player resolve multiple actions that are supposed to be performed at the "start of the turn".

http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/up/INATFAQv5.1.pdf

Mannahnin wrote:So the only sensible way (to my mind) to resolve that is to say that all things which happen at "the start of the movement phase" must be resolved before anything else which happens during the movement phase.

Coincidentally, this also happens to be the way the INAT rules it, which answers Tirumbar's original question.

So it's the position of INAT that "the start of the Librarian's movement phase" is the same as "the start of the Movement phase"?

Mannahnin wrote: Richard: Your answer is on page 4 of the INAT.

RB.09.02- Q. How does a player resolve multiple actions that are supposed to be performed at the "start of the turn".

http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/up/INATFAQv5.1.pdf

Okay, page 4 says start of turn or movement phase actions must be taken before "voluntary actions".

Isn't using the Gate of Infinity a "voluntary action"? You certainly are not required to use the power.

And there is nothing on page 83 that says a Librarian must use the GoI power before moving any other units.