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Hi guys,

Wayward Swede here getting ready to attend AdeptiCon again and I'm looking for a answer to how its played in the States when a Librarian is to use a power needed to be used "at the start of the librarians movement phase".

Is this played as version 1: Librarians movement phase = Players movement phase (before you move any units already present on the field)

Or version 2: Before the librarian or the unit it is attached to is activated ? (Meaning you can move other units first, move in reserves etc etc)

Thank you !

I would say it means before you have moved the Librarian. So you could move other units before he moves if you wanted and would simply cast the power before he moves.

I would agree with Grey Templar, but there are conflicting opinions.

Folks against this say that only the player has a movement phase, not the librarian.

To be sure, ask the TO before your first match, will save you grief in the long run.

time wizard wrote:Folks against this say that only the player has a movement phase, not the librarian.

This is my interpretation. There is only one Movement Phase in each player turn.

As opposed to something like Tank Shock, which is clearly defined as an action that is performed when you have selected a model/unit for movement during the Movement Phase:

BRB wrote:When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally.

The librarian's movement phase is no different than any other unit's movement phase. You only have one movement phase of which all of your units are a part, not a separate movement phase for each unit, imo.

The guys I game with play it that you use the ability when you would normally move the unit that contains the Librarian. So Number 2 in your examples.

YMMV and consult the TO. Check the Adepticon website and see if you can E-Mail their TO's to get your answer.

It's at the start of your movement phase, exact same thing since the librarian is your model. That's why no such powers can be used when a librarian gets drop podded down.

I believe it was written like that to prevent the power from being used in your opponents movement phase. Poor choice of words on GW's part, they should have just said "friendly movement phase"

Grey Templar wrote:I believe it was written like that to prevent the power from being used in your opponents movement phase. Poor choice of words on GW's part, they should have just said "friendly movement phase"

It was probably written like that to keep SM players from moving the Librarian, then casting GoI to go another 24".

They should have said, "Instead of moving normally, the Librarian can cast Gate of Infinity..." but that would probably have ended up being debated to death as well!

I have always read it as 1 and played it as 2. I blame my opponents.

/shrug

Tirumbar wrote:Wayward Swede here getting ready to attend AdeptiCon again and I'm looking for a answer to how its played in the States when a Librarian is to use a power needed to be used "at the start of the librarians movement phase".

Is this played as version 1: Librarians movement phase = Players movement phase (before you move any units already present on the field)

Or version 2: Before the librarian or the unit it is attached to is activated ? (Meaning you can move other units first, move in reserves etc etc)

Hi Richard!

I don't believe there's an explicit ruling on this in the INAT FAQ. I believe Option 1 is correct, however, as individual units don't have a "movement phase". The player has a movement phase, and I believe it's phrased that way as a shorter way of saying "the owning player's movement phase".

Otherwise it would be awesome to combine this with a Locator Beacon.

Mannahnin wrote:

Tirumbar wrote:Wayward Swede here getting ready to attend AdeptiCon again and I'm looking for a answer to how its played in the States when a Librarian is to use a power needed to be used "at the start of the librarians movement phase".

Is this played as version 1: Librarians movement phase = Players movement phase (before you move any units already present on the field)

Or version 2: Before the librarian or the unit it is attached to is activated ? (Meaning you can move other units first, move in reserves etc etc)

I don't believe there's an explicit ruling on this in the INAT FAQ. I believe Option 1 is correct, however, as individual units don't have a "movement phase". The player has a movement phase, and I believe it's phrased that way as a shorter way of saying "the owning player's movement phase".

Otherwise it would be awesome to combine this with a Locator Beacon.

Mannahinn, I think they were specifying the Librarians unit as a part of the current movement phase.

So the Librarians Movement phase is the part of the owning players movement phase where the Librarian gets to move.

They say: "at the start of the librarians movement phase". Which I take to mean at the start of the librarians part of the movement phase.
That is how i see it anyway.

Hi Ragnar !

(see you soon buddy ! Adepticon is gonna be great ! eight crazy swedes comming your way soon ^^ )

Reason for asking is the following:

If a GK librarian can use the summoning after other units have moved but before he or his units moves it means that I can disembark a unit from a transport and then "fetch" it to the librarian with the summoning.

If the power has to be used before any other unit already present on the field has moved then a unit embark on a transport cannot be "fetched" with the summoning since a unit in a transport cannot be the target of a spell unless the caster is joined with the unit.

Simply put: Ruleset version 1 - more planning the turn before needed.
Ruleset version 2 - less planning needed more useful for on the spot emergency uses.

Its taken me years to decipher GW's ridiculous way of explaining their rules. They use too many words or not enough or maybe something just gets lost in the whole English to 'Merican translation for me! (huh-heh, yup theres only one "A" in my 'Merica! ) Basically what I've learned is that if you take them "literally" & "word for word" you can avoid most (but not all!) of the confusion.
So with this in mind I would say it is pretty self-explanatory: "This power can be used at the start of the Librarians Movement phase"... Chances are that you will want to make this your first movement of your turn but if for some tactical or any other reason for instance, you wish to make other moves first, I see nothing in this sentence that would prevent that. Especially if its something that only affects the Librarian himself? But not only then either as, for example, in the case of the GK "Summoning" power, where it says the only prohibition is that the target unit is a "non-vehicle" and is "not locked in combat", which to me implies that they (the target) may have already moved (even from reserves!) before the Librarian uses the power, right?
I'm certain it really only matters in regards to wether or not the unit using the power (in this case a Librarian) is deep striking or moving in from reserve or anything else themselves, that also must take place "at the start of the movement phase" and would thereby prevent the use of such a power in that turn. You can't use the power and then move in from the table edge or outflank, for instance. What lends more validity to this interpretation, to me anyway, is that there are other powers and abilities through out the rule book and various codex's(?) that specifically state "at the start of the Movement phase", or "at start of enemies Movement phase" or even "before any Moves are made". They (GW) tend to be very subtly specific as far certain words like "may" or "can" or must" and so if they had said "start of players Movement" or "start of Movement phase" I'd believe the answer to be Version 1. However, since it says "start of Librarians Movement phase" I'd have to go with Version 2...

Thats my story and I'm sticking to it! (...actually, I'm not that sure even now? Damn your vagaries GW!!!)

Since it says "phase" it does mean the phase as a whole.
IIRC Mephiston's spell explicitly states that you do his spell before his movement, not his movement phase, so you can do it whenever in the phase as long as it's before he moves.

Tirumbar wrote:(see you soon buddy ! Adepticon is gonna be great ! eight crazy swedes comming your way soon ^^ )

Awesome! My team is bringing eight guys/two entries to the team tournament as well; though obviously we're not traveling as far. Some of the Dakka moderators are coming from as far as England and Australia, however.

Tirumbar wrote:(Reason for asking is the following:

If a GK librarian can use the summoning after other units have moved but before he or his units moves it means that I can disembark a unit from a transport and then "fetch" it to the librarian with the summoning.

If the power has to be used before any other unit already present on the field has moved then a unit embark on a transport cannot be "fetched" with the summoning since a unit in a transport cannot be the target of a spell unless the caster is joined with the unit.

Simply put: Ruleset version 1 - more planning the turn before needed.
Ruleset version 2 - less planning needed more useful for on the spot emergency uses.

Understood. I believe it's ruling 1, but I don't think it's in the INAT at present; I'll try to run it by the council.

I'm pretty sure it's #1.

There is no requirement that you "activate" each model in the army and move them, so the librarian doesn't have a "movement phase" (himself) until you actually move the model.

This leads to a contradiction: the librarian doesn't have a "movement phase" until he actually moves; but the power must be used at the start of his movement phase.

Since this leads to a contradiction in the rules, this explanation must* be incorrect.

The other interpretation: that the test occurs at the start of the player's movement phase, is based on a distinct event. The player's movement phase comes at the start of the player's turn, which is after the other player's turn has ended.

The "start" of the movement phase is still somewhat ambiguous, but a rational interpretation is "before you move any other models." This doesn't contradict any other rules, so it is a superior interpretation to the above.

Therefore, #1 is the correct answer.

* If other interpretations lead to a similar contradiction, then this one could be correct. But they don't.

biccat wrote:There is no requirement that you "activate" each model in the army and move them, so the librarian doesn't have a "movement phase" (himself) until you actually move the model.

This leads to a contradiction: the librarian doesn't have a "movement phase" until he actually moves; but the power must be used at the start of his movement phase.

Since this leads to a contradiction in the rules, this explanation must* be incorrect.

This is why it could be #1 or #2 (Which I would say #2 is the intent.)

The librarian doesn't have a "movement phase" (himself) until you actually move the model.

The start of the Librarians movement phase is when he actually moves.

The power must be used at the start of his movement phase, which he does not have until you actually move the model.

Therefore #2 is correct, since there is no real contradiction.

The thing that gets me is that they specified 'the Librarians movement phase' instead of just 'the players movement phase'

That is why I think the intent is #2, because they specified 'the Librarians movement phase'.

DeathReaper wrote:The librarian doesn't have a "movement phase" (himself) until you actually move the model.

The start of the Librarians movement phase is when he actually moves.

The power must be used at the start of his movement phase, which he does not have until you actually move the model.

Therefore #2 is correct, since there is no real contradiction.

I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion that there's no contradiction. The power has to be used "at the start" of his movement phase...which presumably means before the model is moved (I think this is uncontroverted). But the librarian doesn't get a movement phase (you're not obligated to move him until you start moving him) until he moves.

Since there's no part of the librarian's movement phase that is distinct from the model actually moving (it ends when you stop moving him), there would be no point when you could roll for the power.

I'm not really attached to this conclusion, but the above contradiction has to be resolved. Is there any point during a model's "movement phase" when it is not being moved?

DeathReaper wrote:The thing that gets me is that whey specified 'the Librarians movement phase' instead of just 'the players movement phase'

That is why I think the intent is #2, because they specified 'the Librarians movement phase'.

I think you're correct on intent, but as explained above, this could be to prevent people from assuming they could use the power in their opponent's movement phase.

DeathReaper wrote: The librarian doesn't have a "movement phase" (himself) until you actually move the model.

I'd say the Librarian doesn't have a movement phase at all.

Page 9: The Movement phase The player can move any of his units that are capable of doing so. See the Movement rules for more details of how to move your forces.
Page 10: In his turn, a player may move any of his units – all of them if he wishes – up to their maximum movement distance. Once a unit has completed all of its
movement, the player selects another unit and moves that one, and so on, until the player has moved all of the units he wishes to move.

There's nothing about individual models/units having their own phase - you just move them during the larger overall phase.

Am I missing something?

I'd have to go with #1

I take it to mean the Librarian's (ie the side the Librarian is on [space marine]) movement phase.

The Librarian moves in the movement phase, he does not have a movement phase of his own. There is one movement phase per player turn, not one for each unit/model.

Edit: I agree with rigeld2, he made the same point while I was typing...

biccat wrote: I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion that there's no contradiction. The power has to be used "at the start" of his movement phase...which presumably means before the model is moved (I think this is uncontroverted). But the librarian doesn't get a movement phase (you're not obligated to move him until you start moving him) until he moves.

It should be noted that this is not the only instance of a "model's" phase stated in the rules.

For Librarians; there is also force dome, "...used at the start of the Librarian's Movement phase.", there is null zone, "...used at the start of the Librarian's Shooting phase.", there are quickening and might of the ancients, both "...used at the start of the Librarian's Assault phase."

Are all of these powers required to be the very first action the marine player can make in any given phase?

time wizard wrote:Are all of these powers required to be the very first action the marine player can make in any given phase?

Without reviewing the powers to see what conflict this might generate, I'd say yes.
Models don't have phases.

time wizard wrote:Are all of these powers required to be the very first action the marine player can make in any given phase?

The conflict I mentioned wouldn't necessarily occur in the shooting or assault phases. A librarian does something other than shoot during the shooting (nominate a target, measure range) and assault (nominate a target, decide who is in range, allocate attacks) phases, so the powers wouldn't necessarily conflict with normal application of the rules.

For consistency's sake, I'd say yes, these powers need to be the first action the marine player takes in each given phase. But that requires a major assumption - that GW is consistent in how they use words throughout their rulebooks. This is clearly not the case, so we have to deal with rules on an individual basis.

edit: trimmed down time wizard's quote to be more concise

biccat wrote:For consistency's sake, I'd say yes, these powers need to be the first action the marine player takes in each given phase. But that requires a major assumption - that GW is consistent in how they use words throughout their rulebooks. This is clearly not the case, so we have to deal with rules on an individual basis.

While I agree GW is less than consistent in how they use words, I'd say it's better to deal with the words as they are written unless there's a conflict.

rigeld2 wrote:
Models don't have phases.

Agreed, models don't have phases, players do.

But if this (model's {any} phase) is taken as shorthand for "Before the particular model has taken any action that particular player phase." the we see what is meant by the "Librarian' Movement phase".

In a player's Movement phase, the player is free to move units in any order they wish. The same is true for the Shooting and Assault phase.

If I was required to use Gate of Infinity at the very start of my Movement phase, then the rule would have to say, "This power is used at the beginning of the player's Movement phase..." or "Before moving any other unit, the Librarian may use this power to..." but that is not how the rule is written.

If you say that the Librarian doesn't have a Movement phase per se, then since the rule states to use it at that time, the Librarian can never use that power.

Neither can it use any other power that references a Librarian's Movement or Shooting or Assault phase, since the prevailing opinion is that such a phase does not exist.

And if that "phase" does not exist, then no action can be performed during it.

time wizard wrote:If you say that the Librarian doesn't have a Movement phase per se, then since the rule states to use it at that time, the Librarian can never use that power.

Correct - he can't.
Since that's silly, we look at the phrase for context. It mentions a movement phase - there's only one of those.
It can only mean the Librarian player's movement phase.

time wizard wrote:Neither can it use any other power that references a Librarian's Movement or Shooting or Assault phase, since the prevailing opinion is that such a phase does not exist.

And if that "phase" does not exist, then no action can be performed during it.

The rules often refer to models when they mean "that model's controlling player." For example, "a model armed with lightning claws can reroll..."* - the model doesn't roll dice, the player controlling the model rolls the dice. We don't disallow the roll simply because the model is incapable of rolling dice.

* this may be a bad example, don't have a book in front of me, but I know there are rules that refer to models rolling dice

biccat wrote:* this may be a bad example, don't have a book in front of me, but I know there are rules that refer to models rolling dice

<takes this specific example and straw mans it out to show that biccat has no idea what he's talking about>

>.>
(just kidding - I agree)

rigeld2 wrote:

time wizard wrote:If you say that the Librarian doesn't have a Movement phase per se, then since the rule states to use it at that time, the Librarian can never use that power.

Correct - he can't.
Since that's silly, we look at the phrase for context. It mentions a movement phase - there's only one of those.
It can only mean the Librarian player's movement phase.

So then the rules that reference the start of the Librarian's Shooting and Assault phase must also mean the start of the Librarian player's phase, meaning it must be the first action, correct?

So now take a force that has 2 Librarians. At the start of the marine player's Movement phase, 1 Librarian uses gate of infinity. The other Librarian is now prevented from using gate of infinity because the marine player is no longer at the "beginning" of the Movement phase?

The same would have to hold true if the player has 2 Librarian's and wants to use powers that must be used "...at the start of the Librarian's Shooting phase." Once the player's phase starts, the first Librarian can use the power, the second can't because it is passed the start of the phase.

What about an Epistolary? He surely can't use both quickening and might of the ancients then since both are used "...at the start of the Librarian's Assault phase" which must be at the start of the player's Assault phase. And once one power is used, the player is no longer at the start of the phase.

See the problem?