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time wizard wrote:Okay, page 4 says start of turn or movement phase actions must be taken before "voluntary actions".

Isn't using the Gate of Infinity a "voluntary action"? You certainly are not required to use the power.

It's a voluntary action, but one that happens at the start of the phase.

And there is nothing on page 83 that says a Librarian must use the GoI power before moving any other units.

If you have moved other units, it is no longer the start of the phase.

insaniak wrote:

time wizard wrote:Okay, page 4 says start of turn or movement phase actions must be taken before "voluntary actions".

Isn't using the Gate of Infinity a "voluntary action"? You certainly are not required to use the power.

It's a voluntary action, but one that happens at the start of the phase.

So I have to use GoI before a voluntary action, but it is a voluntary action that I must take at the start of the phase before I take any voluntary action, except for this voluntary action that must be taken before any other voluntary action because after I take a voluntary action I can't take any actions that takes place at the start of the phase except for those voluntary actions that must take place at the start of the phase.

Yeah.......I got it now!

{Above was tongue in cheek, of course! } {Well, kind of! }

Or, for the uncomplicated version, when they say 'voluntary actions' they simply mean 'voluntary actions with no specific activation time'...

biccat wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:So the only sensible way (to my mind) to resolve that is to say that all things which happen at "the start of the movement phase" must be resolved before anything else which happens during the movement phase.

Coincidentally, this also happens to be the way the INAT rules it, which answers Tirumbar's original question.

So it's the position of INAT that "the start of the Librarian's movement phase" is the same as "the start of the Movement phase"?

The INAT is not explicit about Gate of Infinity & The Summoning, but that is my read. I agree with your reasoning that it's a bigger leap to think that individual units have their own movement phases, and the more likely conclusion is that it's referring to the owning player's movement phase.

Time Wizard wrote:Okay, page 4 says start of turn or movement phase actions must be taken before "voluntary actions".

Isn't using the Gate of Infinity a "voluntary action"? You certainly are not required to use the power.

And there is nothing on page 83 that says a Librarian must use the GoI power before moving any other units.

Yes, start of turn actions must happen before voluntary actions. GoI is voluntary, but is specifically denoted as taking place at the start of the phase. The only inference which needs to be made is that "Librarian's movement phase" means the owning player's movement phase.

Happyjew wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Occam's Razor tells us that the simpler explanation should be the one we select.

This isn't necessarily true. It is explained in full why "Simplest is best" is not always right, here:

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Occam.html

He seems to leave out a crucial notion (unless I missed it) in the theory, in that "other things being equal. . ."

Meaning, substitute known values for unknown values, and if you insert those known values into all equations, the simplest answer (that also gives you the desired result, as in the 'creates the curve' in his first example) is most often the correct one.

However, all semantics aside, it should simply be remembered as this:

"Don't multiply beyond necessity."

Meaning, if you have two rules that could both function, but one of them requires you to create a new "phase" that doesn't exist, you are, by definition, multiplying beyond necessity.

puma713 wrote:However, all semantics aside, it should simply be remembered as this:

"Don't multiply beyond necessity."

Meaning, if you have two rules that could both function, but one of them requires you to create a new "phase" that doesn't exist, you are, by definition, multiplying beyond necessity.

And one of them makes more than one thing happen 'At the start of the movement phase'

When clearly once you have done anything it is no longer the 'start of the movement phase' and by definition, multiplying beyond necessity.

I thought "The Librarians movement phase" was clear. but it clearly is not.

When clearly once you have done anything it is no longer the 'start of the movement phase' and by definition, multiplying beyond necessity.

Under this interpretation, where "start" or "end" of a phase is a discrete instant during which only one thing can happen, you can only make one Reserve roll in a turn. And only one Morale test from shooting. This is not a functional interpretation.

Clearly the start and end of a phase are periods during which only things which happen at the start or end of a phase can take place.

All events which take place at the start of a phase must be resolved before moving on to other events which take place in that phase, but are not specifically designated as taking place at the start of the phase. All events which take place at the end of a phase must be resolved AFTER resolving all events which take place in that phase but are not specifically designated as happening at the end of that phase.

In the movement phase, you frequently have events which must be resolved at the beginning of the phase- Gate or Summoning, Reserve Rolls, Summoning Lesser Daemons or Possession by Greater Daemons, etc. You must resolve these before moving on to other events which take place in the movement phase. Units moving on from Reserves are not explicitly designated as moving on at the start of the phase, just before other units can move. So the correct sequence is to resolve all "Start of Turn/Start of Movement Phase" events, then move units on from Reserves, then move other units.