Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Grey Templar wrote:All Cleansing Flame's will happen "before blows are struck"

Where in the GK codex does it say anything about them NOT being simultanious?

If 2 things have the exact same trigger and description then they must happen simultaniously. It requires conjecture to say they happen in a specific order.

Common Grey Templar, you know better than that... Permissive ruleset forces you to provive a rule that ALLOWS them to happen simultaniously. The rules state test, resolve. Close combat has an allowance for each initive step. CF doesn't occur on a step, therefor without specific permission it defaults to the standard rules.

Yeah, because it is a specific insertion. Cleansing Flame hos no such clarification that it does or doesn't happen simultaniously.

Therefore, we have to set it to what it is word for word. Which is a simultanious resolution(as per all CC attacks that happen at the same I step are resolved simultaniously)


It is the simplest solution to treat Cleansing Flame as a CC attack that is resolved at the I step "before blows are struck"

This results in a complete I step list as follows.

I:Before blows are struck
I:10
I:9
I:8
I:7
I:6
I:5
I:4
I:3
I:2
I:1


This works because it also allows for other abilities that are triggered "before blows are struck" such as Psychotroke Grenades, Psychic powers, etc... to be resolved in a specific order.


We can also say that we use the rule that says "The person who'se turn it is decides the order"

Choosing to resolve something simultaniously is a possable order of operations. In this case I, as the GK player, would on my turn decide to resolve all Cleansing Flames simultaniously while on my opoponents turn he could decide to resolve them in sequential order.

Let's examine this scenario.

My unit of 5 purifiers assaults your unit of 5 purifiers.

We both cast cleansing flame. I do it first and my CF happens to kill all 5 of your purifiers. Does that mean you never get to cast your cleansing flame?

No. You still get to use it because both CF are used at the same time.

There is no sequential timeline as to who gets to use CF first. They all happen at the same time (in the case of multiple CF's). The codex is very explicit and tells you when exactly that it happens/is used - after pile-in and before blows. There is no order of priority for which CF goes off first (or is resolved first). All are resolved at the same time.

Just like in combat, if my I4 guy kills your I4 guy, your I4 guy still gets his attacks because both are occurring at the same time.

That is my view of how it works, however I can see it being interperted as being subject to "the player whose turn it is decides the order" sort of thing.

I play it all as being completely simultanious at all times.

Grey Templar wrote:That is my view of how it works, however I can see it being interperted as being subject to "the player whose turn it is decides the order" sort of thing.

That's partially true. The player whose turn it is gets to decide which combat he wants to resolve first if there are multiple combats. But once in that combat, the order of events are no longer dictated by the controlling player any longer. So for for example, whether the player's I4 guy attacks first or his opponent's I4 guy attacks first, both players will get the chance to attack with their I4 guys (assuming they are not killed by higher Init models), even if the I4 attacks causes casaulties.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
If 2 things have the exact same trigger and description then they must happen simultaniously. It requires conjecture to say they happen in a specific order.

Not necessarily true. Look at FNP and anything that comes into effect off of "unsaved wounds". RAW they both happen at the same time (after taking an unsaved wound, yet clearly one has to come first. And yes, I am aware of hte various arguments, and this isn't a perfect example.

I am not sure what you are saying here. FNP is specific and is only used after you have failed your saves (i.e. if the model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound). It is not simultaneous with failing your saves.

jy2 wrote:Let's examine this scenario.

My unit of 5 purifiers assaults your unit of 5 purifiers.

We both cast cleansing flame. I do it first and my CF happens to kill all 5 of your purifiers. Does that mean you never get to cast your cleansing flame?

Yes, but not because I think CF from same side should be simultaneous. I'd play it that way, because rules don't say what order those should be resolved (attacker first, defender first, simultaneously) and in this case, simultaneously gives neither side advantage.
To continue in exactly same fashion (keep rulings as fair as possible) if unit A was assaulted by Purifiers from Unit B and C, all three would first be hit with single CF and unit A by another CF after that (even if unit B and/or C would have been wiped out).

jy2 wrote:
The codex is very explicit and tells you when exactly that it happens/is used - after pile-in and before blows. There is no order of priority for which CF goes off first (or is resolved first). All are resolved at the same time.

Yes and no. In all other cases, things that are happening at same time slot are resolved sequentially, unless explicitly noted. For example morale checks for taking 25% or more casualties. Technically whole phases also happen at exactly same time.
So even though I agree that game can go wonky with "simultaneous" sequential effects from both sides, I also think that the RAW for doing them simultaneously is extremely debatable.

But the real questions still is the Librarian question which I restate:
My librarian with 1 wound left uses first Hammerhand and then Dark Excommunication in same assault. He perils on Hammerhand and fails invuln save.
Can I still roll Psychic test for Dark Excommunication?

I have two librarians who use Summoning in the same movement phase. How exactly would you resolve this situation in game?
Do you a) Do psychic test for librarian A and then DS the unit he targeted and then do same for Librarian B or b) do you roll Psychic Test for librarian A, then roll Psychic test for Librarian B and then move the units as simultaneously as possible (that is first choose where unit A deepstrikes then where unit B deepstrikes, and only after these two spots are chosen you'd roll for scatter).

jy2 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
If 2 things have the exact same trigger and description then they must happen simultaniously. It requires conjecture to say they happen in a specific order.

Not necessarily true. Look at FNP and anything that comes into effect off of "unsaved wounds". RAW they both happen at the same time (after taking an unsaved wound, yet clearly one has to come first. And yes, I am aware of hte various arguments, and this isn't a perfect example.

I am not sure what you are saying here. FNP is specific and is only used after you have failed your saves (i.e. if the model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound). It is not simultaneous with failing your saves.

FNP functions "whenever a model suffers an unsaved wounds" (with some limitations, not necessary for this). Hexrifle (for example) states that "X" happens "whenever a model suffers an unsaved wound". Both abilities come into effect when you suffer an unsaved wound, however, most people (and INAT agrees) plays that FNP comes first, and if you are successful, then no other actions that occur "whenever a model suffers an unsaved wound" come into play.

Grey Templar wrote:However, Cleansing Flame is a Close Combat attack. So it would happen simultaniously(as it all happens at the same time, "before any blows are struck")
You then roll your psychic tests for each squad. All 3 pass.
Then you roll 3 dice for each model. Identical model's dice may be rolled together.
Lets say its a squad of 30 Ork boyz with a Nob. 29 Boys, 2 of whom are carrying rokkit launchas, and the Nob.
You would then roll 81 dice. On a 4+, a regular ork boy takes a wound(and gets his 6+ save)
Then you roll 6 dice for the Rokkit boyz and 3 dice for the Nob. Saves as before.
So if you have identical models you roll their multiple dice all together. This is just a simplification. Technically you MUST roll 3 dice for each model seperatly.

I think that is what I was saying in my example.

If you roll 3 dice for each model: Lets say you roll a 4 , a 2 and a 3 the model takes one wound move on the the next model, you roll a 4, another 4 and a 2 the model takes two wounds. HOWEVER if it is a 1 wound model the additional 4 you rolled doesn't get allocated to another model. It just goes away.

You are giving yourself too many attacks if you roll (number of models x number of casts) dice and then allocating wounds or alternatively you are losing attacks if your canny opponent groups all the 4+ onto single models.

There is no wound allocation it is 3 tests on each model in isolation.

I would however dispute that you take all the Psychic tests and then resolve each attack. Like Luide says each Psychic power is a separate process by itself you can't wait to see the results of additional psychic tests before resolving the current power.

For convenience you could do it that way but I would be looking very closely to see if that caused any effect that would be different to how the attack would normally run, like in this case getting 60 attacks when it should really be much less than that.

If we played it that way I would have my opponent nominate a model and I'd roll three dice, one wound for every 4+ . Nominate the next one, roll three, one wound for every 4+, etc removing models as required as you go.

My preference however would be Psychic Test, Roll Twenty dice (if all models the same). Next test, roll as many dice as models remain unwounded then roll the ones that have a wound already. etc

Either way those gargoyles are dead 6 ways to sunday.. ^^;

decoste007xt wrote:It was actually a very crazy game... i was passing 3d6 leadership on shadows of the warp... and his deathleaper made my Grandmaster Ld7... and i was rolling 3d6 and passing my force weapon... I got to see a Grandmaster kill a Swarmlord, Hive Tyrant, Tyrannofex, 3 tyrant guard Crazy stuff!!!

Oh never mind. your opponent took deathleaper.

decoste007xt wrote:Either way those gargoyles are dead 6 ways to sunday.. ^^;

Not really though, if you do it what I believe is the correct way there is a chance that 2 or 3 of them will survive.

Of course they then have to fight of 2 purifier squads and Castellan Cr .... OK, they're screwed

Obviously, "because it makes sense", is not really a valid argument as far as GW rules are concerned, but from a realistic standpoint I think they should happen simultaneously because, well, it makes sense. I mean, think about it not as a game, but actually happening. If three squads of purifiers assault a mob of orks, will the second two squads wait patiently while the first squad is shooting fire until they can shoot fire? No, they'll all be shooting fire at the same time. Like I said though, I know the wording of rules is more important so this has little bearing, but it's something to consider.

As to the repeatedly mentioned example of a Librarian periling off of Hammerhand but still getting to use Dark Excommunication, that example isn't really relevant. The Librarian is only one unit (in fact one person), so he would never be able to do two things simultaneously anyway. The Purifiers are seperate units, so a better example would be two seperate Librarians, and if those Librarians were using powers relevant at the same time (such as Hammerhand) it would happen simultaneously.

Mate, you are new, but if a thread has been dead for a few months you are generally meant to let it lie. I think its called thread necromancy or something. Always check the date of a few posts prior to yours before you post.