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Hey all, short and sweet.

Can you have multiple cleansing flames? I had 20 gargoyles assault my 2 purifier squads, one which had Castellan Crowe in it... i passed all 3 psychic tests for cleansing and managed to inflict more than enough wounds. (60 4+ rolls on 20 guys.. i made like 40 of them somehow.. and he failed all the armor). Somehow this felt a bit OP.. or unfair. He charged me, and i killed him with cleansing flame before the combat even began!

Am I overlooking something or is this power just that badass??

I had thought of bringing a few Purifier squads and breaking them up with combat Tactics... what then? If i broke 4 10 man squads into 8 squads and lets say for some silly reason 8 squads all ran into the same combat I would have 8 cleansing flames?

Does this have anything to do with if the Knight of the Flame is alive or not? It read how the Justicar ,Knight of the Flame..etc.. always takes the first perils and you always use his leadership. I dont know why this is as he's the same leadership as the entire squad!

Perfectly legal. Which is why you don't send in your 6+ save guys vs purifiers. (Unless you have something to improve the chance of failure on the psychic test.

It was actually a very crazy game... i was passing 3d6 leadership on shadows of the warp... and his deathleaper made my Grandmaster Ld7... and i was rolling 3d6 and passing my force weapon... I got to see a Grandmaster kill a Swarmlord, Hive Tyrant, Tyrannofex, 3 tyrant guard Crazy stuff!!!

Also note, Crowe isn't an independant character so he can't join a squad.

decoste007xt wrote:Can you have multiple cleansing flames? I had 20 gargoyles assault my 2 purifier squads, one which had Castellan Crowe in it... i passed all 3 psychic tests for cleansing and managed to inflict more than enough wounds. (60 4+ rolls on 20 guys.. i made like 40 of them somehow.. and he failed all the armor). Somehow this felt a bit OP.. or unfair. He charged me, and i killed him with cleansing flame before the combat even began!

Yes, you can have multiple cleansing flames. Yes, it is brutally powerful. But there is no rule allowing you to cast one, pause in the middle before resolving it, and cast another one. You have to cast & resolve them one at a time, so you shouldn't have gotten 60 4+ rolls unless the first 40 all failed to kill any.

Yeah, Cleansing flame is gruesomely powerful in certain situations, but perfectly legal, even in multiples.

Horde armies tend to hate it (orks and Nids mainly) as they have beercan armour at best (not likely to make many saves) and the power hits the whole unit- negating the utility of having a large unit, which horde armies tend to need to kill things as they lack the heavy armour of other factions.

I'm not a fan, and consider the power to be powerful as hell against armies that favour light armour, but there's not much i can do about it


When in doubt, trust in the spread of the gauge

Shoot them Then Shoot them again. If any are still moving shoot them again. Then shoot them again for good measure in case they are necrons in disguise...

Indeed, I actually lost 50% of two purifier squads before i ever got into combat. If he had kept shooting me I'd of probably widdled down enough to not be a threat.

I had no idea Castellan Crowe was not an IC.... my bad. I just assumed being an HQ he was one, so he just sits all out there by his lonesome? I don't really get it.. I did it wrong then cause I had him in a squad of 10 purifiers coming out of a Stormraven.

decoste007xt wrote:Indeed, I actually lost 50% of two purifier squads before i ever got into combat. If he had kept shooting me I'd of probably widdled down enough to not be a threat.

I had no idea Castellan Crowe was not an IC.... my bad. I just assumed being an HQ he was one, so he just sits all out there by his lonesome? I don't really get it.. I did it wrong then cause I had him in a squad of 10 purifiers coming out of a Stormraven.

Yea he's a loner of a Character, can't join squads has to hitch a ride by himself

He is not an IC as some sort of attempt to balance him by design. Not a terrible idea, seems to work pretty well for him, Meph and Sangy.

Yeah, its basically a balance mechanic.

So I could still technically run him beside another squad, just not within 1inch? or is that just for enemy models? I guess he gets to hold the backline!

You can run him within an inch, if you want

I like to run him behind so he can't be assaulted and cop the Blade of Antwyr bummer.
Then in my turn he can run between the models of the squad to join in the assault.

Mannahnin wrote:

decoste007xt wrote:Can you have multiple cleansing flames? I had 20 gargoyles assault my 2 purifier squads, one which had Castellan Crowe in it... i passed all 3 psychic tests for cleansing and managed to inflict more than enough wounds. (60 4+ rolls on 20 guys.. i made like 40 of them somehow.. and he failed all the armor). Somehow this felt a bit OP.. or unfair. He charged me, and i killed him with cleansing flame before the combat even began!

Yes, you can have multiple cleansing flames. Yes, it is brutally powerful. But there is no rule allowing you to cast one, pause in the middle before resolving it, and cast another one. You have to cast & resolve them one at a time, so you shouldn't have gotten 60 4+ rolls unless the first 40 all failed to kill any.

Are you sure about this? They all happen at the same time so shouldn't each affect all 20 gargoyles. It's like a chaos sorcerer in a unit of chosen with 5 flamers. The lash and the flamers are all resolved at the same time, not lash first to bunch them all up, and then put 5 flamers on top of the unit.

Heck, forget about lash, let's just use the flamer scenario. 5 flamers on a unit. You don't do wounds on 1 flamer first, kill off some models, and then go on to the next flamer. You do it all at once.

Thing is they can't be all one unit.

1. Crowe casts CF - resolve
2. 1st Squad Casts - resolve
3. 2nd Squad casts - resolve

Continue to CCA what ever is left

Surely they must all trigger, and resolve, at the same time.

It is four separate instances of the exact same identical ability that all trigger off of the exact same circumstances.

While it is nearly impossible, or hugely impractical, to physically make the rolls at the same time they should still be resolved simultaneously.




...

I think it is because they aren't actually "to wound" rolls but more a test on each unit, if they fail they get a wound.

So the first cast would make each model roll then the next would mean the survivors test again then once more.

It isn't like "ok 20 models each has to test 3 times so we make 60 rolls and then we allocate the possibly 60 wounds."

You must find out how many models are left before the next instance of the power.

Magpie wrote:I think it is because they aren't actually "to wound" rolls but more a test on each unit, if they fail they get a wound.

So the first cast would make each model roll then the next would mean the survivors test again then once more.

It isn't like "ok 20 models each has to test 3 times so we make 60 rolls and then we allocate the possibly 60 wounds."

You must find out how many models are left before the next instance of the power.

I disagree. In assault, timing matters.

Let's say 3 units of purifiers charge those gargoyles. First, you resolve all the I6 halberd attacks from all 3 units. Then the I4 sword/psycannnon attacks from all 3 units. Finally you do the hammer attacks from all 3 units. You don't resolves all attacks from 1 unit and then move on to the next unit. Therefore, why must you resolve a power done at the beginning of assault one at a time? You don't. You resolve them all at the same time.

Magpie wrote:I think it is because they aren't actually "to wound" rolls but more a test on each unit, if they fail they get a wound.

So "to wound" rolls are the only thing that can happen simultaneously? "To hit" rolls does as well. So does end-of-phase Break Tests and subsequent Fall Back moves.
I argue that since we are not told to resolve sequentially (or how to do so) we must resolve simultaneously.

So the first cast would make each model roll then the next would mean the survivors test again then once more.

Yes, that is the solution you have proposed....and I disagree with it.

It isn't like "ok 20 models each has to test 3 times so we make 60 rolls and then we allocate the possibly 60 wounds."

But it could very well be; " OK. 20 models each have to test 3 times, so we make three rolls for that guy, then three rolls for that guy, then three rolls for that guy....and so on".

Please, don't feel tempted to argue along the lines of; "But that is annoying to do and takes a long time".
That would be irrelevant, and we already have to do something along those lines if a fully diversified squad is hit by a single instance of Cleansing Flame, like Nobs or Paladins.

The "allocate" part of you sentence does not swing with the wording of Cleansing Flame,but it isn't really important to what we are talking about, so no worries.

You must find out how many models are left before the next instance of the power.

Again, that is a repetition of your opinion.

But won't it say at the start of a combat before any attacks are resolved, which would mean that they are done simultaneously. Or else you would only get to do one as it would no longer be the start of the combat.

Personally as a GK player, I'd play it as Unit 1 casts and resolves Cleansing Flame, Unit 2 casts and resolves Cleansing flame etc., because this is exactly how all other "start of the phase" rules are done. Gate to Infinity, Summoning, Reserves etc.

There is no precedent I can think of for doing it the other way around (Unit 1 casts Cleansing flame, Unit 2 Casts cleansing flame, Unit 1 and 2 Cleansing flame are resolved at same time instead of sequentially).

jy2 wrote:
I disagree. In assault, timing matters.

Let's say 3 units of purifiers charge those gargoyles. First, you resolve all the I6 halberd attacks from all 3 units. Then the I4 sword/psycannnon attacks from all 3 units. Finally you do the hammer attacks from all 3 units. You don't resolves all attacks from 1 unit and then move on to the next unit. Therefore, why must you resolve a power done at the beginning of assault one at a time? You don't. You resolve them all at the same time.

I believe we are on the same side in this, but I believe that could have been worded better.

Perhaps something along the lines of;'

"All attacks at a given Initiative step are resolved simultaneously.

All the I6 Halberd attacks from all the three Purifier squads are resolved simultaneously.
As are all the I4 Sword attacks and the I1 Hammer attacks.

While it isn't an Initiative step per see, it follows that the Cleansing Flames should also be resolved simultaneously."

Just a suggestion, of course.

Grimnarsmate wrote:But won't it say at the start of a combat before any attacks are resolved, which would mean that they are done simultaneously. Or else you would only get to do one as it would no longer be the start of the combat.

The "it's not start of the phase if you have done anything" is wrong interpretation of rules, and trying to use it breaks game. 40k is full of "start of phase" effects that all happen and are resolved sequentially.
Basically, as long as you have "start of a phase/turn" effects to resolve and you haven't yet done anything else, it is still start of the phase/turn. If it weren't, you couldn't use both Quicksilver and Summoning in same turn for example.

Besides, CF isn't start of the phase power. "This power can be used during the Assault phase in either player's turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck. If the Psychic test is passed, all
enemy models..."
As long as no blows have been struck, you can activate CF. When you activate CF with unit 1 and you pass the psychic test, roll wounds for the enemy models. Then repeat for each unit wanting to use CF.

Look at it like this

First cast you roll 20 die (1 per model) and on average 10 models will die (50% chance of 4+ and lets assume 1 wound models)

That means the second cast will be only on 10 models/10 dice, which on average will kill 5

So then the final cast is 5 dice on 5 models and on average 2.5 will die.

So in total you inflict 17 to 18 wounds.

Roll 60 at once and on average you inflict 30.

The only time you'd roll 60 at once is if you were facing a unit composed of 20 3 wound models because there couldn't be any attrition reducing the number of models until the last roll.
Because it is roll per model you can never inflict more wounds than number of models x number of wounds on each model.

There is also quite a bit that happens "after assault moves and before blows" not just psychic attacks, so it is a distinct part of the Assault phase that has to have some sort of order to it.

jy2 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

decoste007xt wrote:Can you have multiple cleansing flames? I had 20 gargoyles assault my 2 purifier squads, one which had Castellan Crowe in it... i passed all 3 psychic tests for cleansing and managed to inflict more than enough wounds. (60 4+ rolls on 20 guys.. i made like 40 of them somehow.. and he failed all the armor). Somehow this felt a bit OP.. or unfair. He charged me, and i killed him with cleansing flame before the combat even began!

Yes, you can have multiple cleansing flames. Yes, it is brutally powerful. But there is no rule allowing you to cast one, pause in the middle before resolving it, and cast another one. You have to cast & resolve them one at a time, so you shouldn't have gotten 60 4+ rolls unless the first 40 all failed to kill any.

Are you sure about this? They all happen at the same time so shouldn't each affect all 20 gargoyles. It's like a chaos sorcerer in a unit of chosen with 5 flamers. The lash and the flamers are all resolved at the same time, not lash first to bunch them all up, and then put 5 flamers on top of the unit.

Heck, forget about lash, let's just use the flamer scenario. 5 flamers on a unit. You don't do wounds on 1 flamer first, kill off some models, and then go on to the next flamer. You do it all at once.

Yes, I'm sure.

The shooting rules are explicit that you resolve all shooting from a single unit simultaneously. The rules for multiple blasts and multiple templates specifically tell you to add up all the hits before rolling to wound with any of them, IF all the shots are coming from the SAME UNIT. If two units are shooting flamers, OTOH, you resolve each completely before moving on to the next, and you can remove casualties dealt by the first unit in such a way as to reduce hits dealt by the second unit.

Cleansing Flame is not a shooting attack, and it's coming from multiple separate units, one after another, so on both of those bases you can't compare it to multiple flamers coming from the same unit.

Close Combat attacks can happen simultaneously, if they're on the same Initiative. But Cleansing Flame doesn't happen at a given Initiative step. It specifically happens before you get to Initiative.

If you read the psychic power rules, they tell you to cast and resolve a power. There is no allowance in there for casting a power, pausing, casting another power, and then resolving them both. Unless they are both psychic shooting attacks coming from the same unit (say a DP of Tzeentch in a CSM army, armed with Doom Bolt & Bolt of Tzeentch), because then that goes back to resolving all shooting from a single unit as being simultaneous. Still, each power has to be cast sequentially, so if (for example) the psyker was on his last wound, rolled 1,1 on his first cast and killed himself via Perils, he'd be dead and wouldn't get to cast the second power.

However, Cleansing Flame is a Close Combat attack. So it would happen simultaniously(as it all happens at the same time, "before any blows are struck")


You then roll your psychic tests for each squad. All 3 pass.

Then you roll 3 dice for each model. Identical model's dice may be rolled together.


Lets say its a squad of 30 Ork boyz with a Nob. 29 Boys, 2 of whom are carrying rokkit launchas, and the Nob.

You would then roll 81 dice. On a 4+, a regular ork boy takes a wound(and gets his 6+ save)

Then you roll 6 dice for the Rokkit boyz and 3 dice for the Nob. Saves as before.


So if you have identical models you roll their multiple dice all together. This is just a simplification. Technically you MUST roll 3 dice for each model seperatly.

Mannahnin wrote:
Yes, I'm sure.

The shooting rules are explicit that you resolve all shooting from a single unit simultaneously. The rules for multiple blasts and multiple templates specifically tell you to add up all the hits before rolling to wound with any of them, IF all the shots are coming from the SAME UNIT. If two units are shooting flamers, OTOH, you resolve each completely before moving on to the next, and you can remove casualties dealt by the first unit in such a way as to reduce hits dealt by the second unit.

Cleansing Flame is not a shooting attack, and it's coming from multiple separate units, one after another, so on both of those bases you can't compare it to multiple flamers coming from the same unit.

Close Combat attacks can happen simultaneously, if they're on the same Initiative. But Cleansing Flame doesn't happen at a given Initiative step. It specifically happens before you get to Initiative.

If you read the psychic power rules, they tell you to cast and resolve a power. There is no allowance in there for casting a power, pausing, casting another power, and then resolving them both. Unless they are both psychic shooting attacks coming from the same unit (say a DP of Tzeentch in a CSM army, armed with Doom Bolt & Bolt of Tzeentch), because then that goes back to resolving all shooting from a single unit as being simultaneous. Still, each power has to be cast sequentially, so if (for example) the psyker was on his last wound, rolled 1,1 on his first cast and killed himself via Perils, he'd be dead and wouldn't get to cast the second power.

The thing is, it is 1 large assault involving several units (i.e. combat res is determined from all units involved). It isn't separate, independent battles. Although the rules do not explicitly tell you so, the resolving combat at Init level itself is precedent that timing matters across all units involved in the combat. Otherwise, why not resolve each combat separately? Halberds from unit #1 attack and wound. Now make your invuln saves. Then go on to halberds from unit #2. Then make your saves again. Finally go on to unit #3 halberd attacks. Right? No, you do all halberd attacks from all 3 units simultaneously and then you allocate the wounds to the target unit. You don't resolve one unit at a time.

Same goes with CF. It is all 1 large battle and all CF are cast at exactly the same time - at the beginning of the assault after pile-in but before any blows are struck. You are not resolving 1, pausing to go on the next and then returning to the first. You are resolving each and every CF against the original unit size of 20 because they are all happening at the same time in that particular combat.

Grey Templar wrote:However, Cleansing Flame is a Close Combat attack. So it would happen simultaniously(as it all happens at the same time, "before any blows are struck")

"Before blows are stuck" is not "simultaneously" and the rule also states that the wounds are done immediately after the Psychic test is passed. Many things can happen in CC "before blows are stuck". All shooting happens "before assault phase" but that isn't simultaneous either when you have multiple units shooting.

There is no rule that states that multiple Instances of CF happen simultaneously. Remember that you cannot use the "Cleansing flame is CC attack" argument for it being simultanous, because CC attacks are only simultaneous if they happen at the same Initiative Step. CF doesn't happen at Initiative step.
I do agree that there is no explicit rule that says they happen sequentially either.

Personally, I think that there are no real precedents for the "All CF are simultanous". "Use psychic power, apply effects. Use next power, apply effects" as this is exactly how you would proceed with Summoning or Gate to Infinity which are analogue to the CF situation and thus are actually valid precedents.

Also, take into account this: All rules assume that actions are taken and resolved sequentially. When this is not the case, these exceptions to the norm are always written in the rules and specified to be simultaneous. No such wording is evident on CF.

And as last thing: If there are two possible interpretations and no direct RAW on either, we should use the one that gives the rule owner less advantage.

Also, if CF mechanic works like "Do all the psychic tests at same time, resolve effects (later) at same time" it is possible to do following:
Librarian with 1W left casts Hammerhand and Dark Excommunication. He rolls double 1 on the Hammerhand and fails his invuln save. Now, he can STILL cast Dark Excommunication successfully (if you think Psychic tests are resolved simultaneously, not sequentially). He can even perils again.
Needless to say, I don't think you will find many people who think this is the correct way to play it, but it is the logical conclusion to the "Psychic powers that can be used at same time, are resolved simultaneously instead of sequentially".

All Cleansing Flame's will happen "before blows are struck"

Where in the GK codex does it say anything about them NOT being simultanious?

If 2 things have the exact same trigger and description then they must happen simultaniously. It requires conjecture to say they happen in a specific order.

Grey Templar wrote:
If 2 things have the exact same trigger and description then they must happen simultaniously. It requires conjecture to say they happen in a specific order.

Not necessarily true. Look at FNP and anything that comes into effect off of "unsaved wounds". RAW they both happen at the same time (after taking an unsaved wound, yet clearly one has to come first. And yes, I am aware of hte various arguments, and this isn't a perfect example.