Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

1) Magnus sent the fleet, together with the entire Fourth Fellowship away from Prospero. This fleet did not encounter other Legio Astartes, or for that matter either loyalist or traitor forces, but were decimated by unidentified enemies. Eventually they returned to Prospero, and Captain Kalliston died at World Eater hands in the ruins of Tizca. Sergeant Arvida later renounced Magnus as a failure for his failing to foresee and prevent the disaster on Prospero, and vowed to find a way to avenge his legion. Most likely, he joined up with the other loyalist Thousand Sons, and disappeared into the shadows. Somehow they proved their loyalty, and were given a chance of redemption by becoming a 'new' Chapter.
2) The Blood Ravens own histories are locked-down by the Inquisition and the Mechanicus. The Blood Ravens also seem to know of the existence of the Grey Knights, having fought beside them at Kronus and possessing some relics of that Chapter. The Ordo Malleus probably uses them as a subtle reminder to the Blood Ravens; although the Chapter has no idea of their dark origins, deep down they suspect, and the knowledge of the Grey Knights are reminder of who they will face should they fall.
3) Magnus, Tzeentch, and the Emperor know well who the Blood Ravens are; the greatest irony of all, so beloved of Tzeentch, is that a Chapter who so obssesses with obtaining knowledge cannot know who they truly are - IMO, the only reason they do not fall to the flesh-change is because they do not know who they truly are. Magnus is constantly tormented, as the last of the Thousand Sons cannot claim their rightful inheritance.

I bought the entire DoW collection on steam. I haven't installed it yet but I am now. I am going to play through every game an look intently for every hint that can be found. Looks like I will even have to play as other factions to get all the tidbits. This should keep me busy for a while lol.

SickSix wrote:I bought the entire DoW collection on steam. I haven't installed it yet but I am now. I am going to play through every game an look intently for every hint that can be found. Looks like I will even have to play as other factions to get all the tidbits. This should keep me busy for a while lol.

Oh man, you've got a lot of work ahead of you. Does that include DoW2 with its expansions or just DoW1?

jareddm wrote:

SickSix wrote:I bought the entire DoW collection on steam. I haven't installed it yet but I am now. I am going to play through every game an look intently for every hint that can be found. Looks like I will even have to play as other factions to get all the tidbits. This should keep me busy for a while lol.

Oh man, you've got a lot of work ahead of you. Does that include DoW2 with its expansions or just DoW1?

The steam pack I got was all of the DoW 1 games. I actually played them all long ago but lost some discs and cd keys. I have already played through DoW 2 and chaos rising. I might do that again, but as chaos this time.

If you want the accurate information, play the campaign as who actually wins it first. I found it gave me the most accurate depiction of the background.

BaneGuard wrote:If you want the accurate information, play the campaign as who actually wins it first. I found it gave me the most accurate depiction of the background.

There are no hints in Soulstorm (just a heads up, IG is the popular victor but the only confirmation was that it was NOT Space Marines)

In Dark Crusade the hints are in the Blood Ravens Campaign (canon winners) Imperial Guard, and Chaos. (Obviously) If you dont want to replay the campaign a bunch of times, you just need to pick a faction and assault that one factions stronghold to get the story. The hints are DURING stronghold levels, stronghold epilogues, and the 3 races intro movies

Grey Templar wrote:There have been some not so subtle hints dropped in the HH novels(such as a 1k son sorceror having a vision of a Raven rising from the ashes of Prospero)

I really don't like posting in these topics, but this is a perfect example as to the misconstruing of information which leads to the idea being propagated as heavily as it does.

The prophecy was not a Thousand Sons sorcerer having the vision. It was a serf, whom Ahriman and his men were using as a conduit for the Warp.
The prophecy also had nothing about a "Raven rising from the ashes of Prospero".

Quoting verbatim here:

Page 430 of "A Thousand Sons wrote:It's too late...the Wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. Oh, Throne...no, the blood! The Ravens, I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied! A brother betrayed, a brother murdered. The worst mistake for the noblest reason! It cannot happen, but it must!

The Blood Raven's colors are markedly similer to the pre-Heresy 1k sons colors too.

They're also similar to the Blood Angels' colors.

The explaination for the fact they weren't effected by the Rubric is that it only effected the marines on Prospero. Those who would become Blood Ravens were somewhere else.

They then went into hiding till the Heresy blew over and popped up somewhere and said "Hey, we're the Blood Ravens" "founding?" "Sorry, we can't remember when we were founded because our Librarian tripped over a dataslate and destroyed the information"

This is conjecture, based upon the short story "Rebirth".

I actually already quoted it but thanks for posting it again. I didnt notice someone missed posted it either before or after my post (I dont feel like checking right now)

The Blood Angels thing is a weird one. Ya the color means nothing but one might as well mention it, even if it is just for gaks and giggles.

Also, on the wiki it actually states that the imperial guard won the campaign. I'm not sure exactly where this is sourced from, but I just go with what's on the wiki.

Galdos wrote:There are no hints in Soulstorm (just a heads up, IG is the popular victor but the only confirmation was that it was NOT Space Marines)

In Dark Crusade the hints are in the Blood Ravens Campaign (canon winners) Imperial Guard, and Chaos. (Obviously) If you dont want to replay the campaign a bunch of times, you just need to pick a faction and assault that one factions stronghold to get the story. The hints are DURING stronghold levels, stronghold epilogues, and the 3 races intro movies

It should be noted that while the Blood Ravens ending movie is canon, it doesn't mean it was a total victory. What I mean is the individual stronghold victories might not necessarily have been done by the Blood Ravens and so events that occur during those scenes are a bit more suspect than the ending movie.

I know that there are references in the dawn of war 2 games that the blood raven victories against the necron, ork, eldar, guard and chaos were canon, which probably means that the tau were defeated by the blood ravens as well.

BaneGuard wrote:Also, on the wiki it actually states that the imperial guard won the campaign. I'm not sure exactly where this is sourced from, but I just go with what's on the wiki.

Ya the Wiki's are human edited so that means it is a valuable source for info, but not perfect. I know one of the wiki's just simply claims thats the Eldar won Winter Assault end of story which isnt necessarly true. It can be argued that the Imperial Guard won it. The point is that there is no canon statement on who won it, DC makes it clear that Disorder lost Winter Assault, DoW 2 STRONGLY hints that Space Marines won Dark Crusade (but that doesnt mean they conquered all of the strongholds as pointed out earlier. However I doubt that anyone but the SM would have taken the strongholds) and DoW simply states that the SM lost in Soulstorm.

Everything else is up for grabs on how they played out.

I know that the dawn of war omnibus and the wiki sates that either eldar or imperial guard won it. I have no idea for the soulstorm reference. I have seen references in DOW 2 sating the space marines beat every race (except the tau). Also, it saids on the blood ravens wiki thta the blood ravens campaign was the canon ending, though this reference I am unsure of as well.

I'm not so sure the Blood Ravens are a splinter from the Thousand Sons anymore, having now read The First Heretic. I think it's possible that they might be Word Bearers.

It seems like too much of a coincidence to me that their prime blood recruiting planet is Cyrene, which just happens to be the name of The Blessed Lady, an extremely important icon of the pre-hersey Word Beaerers. It seems like too much of a coincidence that planet Cyrene is located in Sub-Sector Aurelia, which just happens to be the nickname of Word Bearer's Primarch Lorgar (it's actually Aurellian, but close enough). It seems like too much of a coincidence that the Blood Raven's slogan is "Knowledge is power. Guard it well", which just happens to be the #1 catch-phrase of Erebus, the Word Bearer's first chaplain. It seems like too much of a coincidence to me that Eliphas, originally a Word Bearer, has hinted at having a connection with the Blood Ravens.

I think it's very possible that the Blood Ravens might be a result of Erebus' "genetic experiments" that he was talking about doing on Astartes during the end of TFH. That would explain the Blood Raven's genetic mutation, and them being Word Bearers would also explain Davian Thule's reasons for destroying the records he found on Kronus detailing the Blood Raven's history.

The Blood Ravens predate the First Heretic by several years.

the First Heretic is a book... a book that chronicles about 40+ years of events.

So, could you extrapolate?

Good catch BlaxicanX,

The Blood Ravens have 3 possible legion choices they could have come from. The Word Bearers (A few hints exist in DC also), the 1000 Sons, and the Black Legion (Though I think people that believe this one have no idea what they are talking about)

I would like to add that the Word Bearers and 1000 Sons were very close to each other. Something worth considering.

There is also the chance of them coming from one of the lost legions, but that's something entirely else to go into.

BaneGuard wrote:There is also the chance of them coming from one of the lost legions, but that's something entirely else to go into.

Doubt it...probably from Thule mentioning 'the unknown Primarch in Dark Crusade'. He was referring to the Blood Ravens' own Primarch, who they don't know, but definitely not one of the two.

It's a bit disingenuous to claim "Knowledge is power, guard it well" is the #1 catch-phrase of Erebus, when the entire time we see him, he says something similar ONE time, when discussing Custodians and how he would love to get their blood for his rituals.

No one but the Emperor has ever had the chance to study the Custodes, and knowledge is power. It must be guarded well.

Also, Cyrene is the home planet of one of the BR captains (can't remember his name). They are otherwise a fleet-based chapter that recruits from several planets throughout the sector. So pretty much the only evidence pointing to the Word Bearers, is that one of their home planets share a name with the Blessed Lady, and their subsector is kind of like Aurelian. I don't know, I think it's giving BL too much credit that they would drop such subtle hints, when the BR=TS hints are as heavy-handed as can be. Plus, tons of BR are psykers, whereas the Word Bearers didn't seem to have a Librarius department at all. At least, none are ever mentioned in The First Heretic, Mortarion actually used Lorgar's tales of the Thousand Sons powers as part of his "evidence" that they are warlocks, and the Word Bearers were the ones assigned to keep an eye on all the other Legions' psykers after Nikea. Finally, Eliphas' connection to the Blood Ravens is that of a nemesis that is constantly trying to kill them.

I don't know, seems like a big stretch.

Not as much as you would think The subector they control is named after the Word Bearers Primarch (or at least same name)
The most important planet is the blessed lady of the Word Bearers.

Eliphas was fighting on Kronus with the Word Bearers during the HH ... carrying a Blood Raven standard

Kronus, a sight of conflict with the Word Bearers during HH, is also a site with a lot of valuable Blood Raven artifacts.


Word Bears liked psykers (Lorgar and Magnus were bros)

Elphas taunts Thule by calling each other brothers. (Could refer to SM and SM brotherhood, Traitor legion to traitor legion, or even of the same legion [blood line rise])


Ya it is not as heavy handed as the 1000 Sons but there are enough points that are worth thinking about. I still prefer the 1000 Sons theory but I wont dismiss the Word Bearers and I find it plausable (Unlike Black Legion or Removed Legion)

BlaxicanX wrote:the First Heretic is a book... a book that chronicles about 40+ years of events.

So, could you extrapolate?

He means that Dawn of War was published many years, In-Real-Life years, before the first Heretic was published. Heck the book probably wasn't even a twinkle in someone's eye when DoW1 came out.

I think dawn of war was a fair while before any of the horus heresy books.

Theunqle wrote:Well, if the imperium ever figured out that they are Thousand son descendants what would happen? even if they simply use their geneseed. I can see the inquisition having a slight issue with this.

There were many chapters right after the HH that accepted loyalists from the traitor legions. If the Inquisition wants to take offence, then they are going to have to cull quite a few chapters.

gabrielhorus wrote:

Theunqle wrote:Well, if the imperium ever figured out that they are Thousand son descendants what would happen? even if they simply use their geneseed. I can see the inquisition having a slight issue with this.

There were many chapters right after the HH that accepted loyalists from the traitor legions.

Were there? Please, enlighten us with your source for this information.

Pilau Rice wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:

Theunqle wrote:Well, if the imperium ever figured out that they are Thousand son descendants what would happen? even if they simply use their geneseed. I can see the inquisition having a slight issue with this.

There were many chapters right after the HH that accepted loyalists from the traitor legions.

Were there? Please, enlighten us with your source for this information.

A group of Iron Warrior loyalists led by Warsmith Dantioch joined Tetrarch Nichodemus, an Ultramarines Champion after their fortress was taken by traitors in The Iron Within.

Pilau Rice wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:

Theunqle wrote:Well, if the imperium ever figured out that they are Thousand son descendants what would happen? even if they simply use their geneseed. I can see the inquisition having a slight issue with this.

There were many chapters right after the HH that accepted loyalists from the traitor legions.

Were there? Please, enlighten us with your source for this information.

Plus, at least half of the original 8 members of the Grey Knights were from traitor Legions.

Tadashi wrote:
A group of Iron Warrior loyalists led by Warsmith Dantioch joined Tetrarch Nichodemus, an Ultramarines Champion after their fortress was taken by traitors in The Iron Within.

Omegus wrote:
Plus, at least half of the original 8 members of the Grey Knights were from traitor Legions.

That's one chapter and the story doesn't go into specifics of these Iron Warriors joining the Ultras, as far as I recall, just that Guilliman, or was it Dorn, wants their assistance in fortifying the Palace. Nothing about them becoming part of the actual Legion.

And Garro, Rubio etc etc aren't joining another Legion, they are being formed into a new one.

There weren't many loyalists from the Traitor Legions that would have escaped the Internal culls of the traitor Legions or the battles on Istvaan anyway.

So far we have the small group of Iron Warriors and the, is it 70? Death Guard from the Eisenstein and Qruze.

Pilau Rice wrote:And Garro, Rubio etc etc aren't joining another Legion, they are being formed into a new one.

How is that different from the Fourth Fellowship survivors being reformed into the Blood Ravens?

Omegus wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:And Garro, Rubio etc etc aren't joining another Legion, they are being formed into a new one.

How is that different from the Fourth Fellowship survivors being reformed into the Blood Ravens?

That wasn't my point, I was questioning what was said about many Chapters taking in loyalists from the Traitor Legions. Forming a brand new Chapter isn't taking into an existing one.

Currently, bar what we have, there isn't anything that goes into what happens with this lot. The only thing so far is the hint with the Grey Nights and Inquisition, but the IA article said as much. It also said that

The captain, indeed all of the Eisenstein seventy who survived the gauntlet to reach Terra, were placed in custody pending deposition by the Emperor himself, a deposition which, after his fall and enshrinement in the Golden Throne, never came.

We know that isn't true of Garro and Qruze, but what of the other 60 odd Death Guard, maybe thats true? Until the Heresy series has run its course, we won't know and there isn't anything to say that they joined other Legions as far as I know.

So we know that the 4th Fellowship are Blood Ravens for sure now do we?