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So I have been reading and I find the theory that the Blood Ravens are actually loyalist thousand sons very intriguing. does anyone have any more information?

There is a lot to say about it. What are you refering to in particullar?

Well I find the fact that the Blood Ravens have a proportionally large amount of psychers compared to other chapter and they have no knowledge of their past but just some small things have shown there is a connection... idk how to put it but I am trying to find more

There have been some not so subtle hints dropped in the HH novels(such as a 1k son sorceror having a vision of a Raven rising from the ashes of Prospero)

The Blood Raven's colors are markedly similer to the pre-Heresy 1k sons colors too.



The explaination for the fact they weren't effected by the Rubric is that it only effected the marines on Prospero. Those who would become Blood Ravens were somewhere else.

They then went into hiding till the Heresy blew over and popped up somewhere and said "Hey, we're the Blood Ravens" "founding?" "Sorry, we can't remember when we were founded because our Librarian tripped over a dataslate and destroyed the information"

Exactly I want more info...I finished the Ultramarines Saga and the Word bearers saga and for some reason I am extremely interested in the history of the blood ravens. but my question is that did they exist "Pre- Dawn Of War" or did they come out around the same time?

THQ made up their own chapter for the DoW games. They didn't exist before the games but they have been integrated into the 40k universe.

Why did THQ not use another existing chapter? Granted there are hundreds of chapter I have not heard of but was it a canon issue? and GW said make up your own or feth off? Also why hasnt anyone really fleshed out the ravens? Alot of plot holes and cliff hangers it seems which does give them a certain appeal but there is no info I can discover just a dead end

Well the background of the blood ravens was kind of fleshed out in the dawn of war omnibus. The first book is based on the original games but the next two books are based on events aroudn winter assault. They have alot of chapter recruitment and alot more info on Gabriel Angelos.
Also, the last two books have major links to possible background.

can I get those books from black library?

The books are to be ignored, they aren't canon and they were written by C.S. Goto, and they were invalidated by dawn of war 2's storyline.

Relic (THQ is just their parent company) made up their own chapter so as to be less limited in what they could do with the chapter. If they had used an existing chapter and said somewhere in the storyline that the chapter was invading planet XX at time XX, they don't want to end up with a thousand fans complaining, "But that chapter couldn't possibly have been there at that time!" FFG did the same thing with their own chapter, the Storm Wardens.

As for the Blood Ravens, the hints given (of which the author said was a mistake to make so obvious) are that they are survivors of the Thousand Sons. Personally, I'm not a fan of this and would instead say that the chapter simply uses Thousand Sons geneseed that may have been altered, but were from an actual founding instead of having such a direct link to the legion. It allows them to stay connected without having to explain why not every person in the chapter is a psyker.

edit:

The books are to be ignored, they aren't canon and they were written by C.S. Goto, and they were invalidated by dawn of war 2's storyline.

This

Well, if the imperium ever figured out that they are Thousand son descendants what would happen? even if they simply use their geneseed. I can see the inquisition having a slight issue with this.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The books are to be ignored, they aren't canon and they were written by C.S. Goto, and they were invalidated by dawn of war 2's storyline.

Really? I know the dawn of war 2 book was completely off canon straight away but I didn't see any contradictions between the original omnibus and the canon (other than a few minor things from the first book which were more like additions to the story rather then going against it.)

Theunqle wrote:Well, if the imperium ever figured out that they are Thousand son descendants what would happen? even if they simply use their geneseed. I can see the inquisition having a slight issue with this.

Depends. One inquisitor's heresy hunt is another inquisitor's sting operation. Things are rarely so black and white and I doubt the Blood Ravens are the only example of a chapter that had traitor geneseed.

I agree that they are probably not the only chapter that uses tainted or potentially tainted gene seed but in my opinion the inquisition would deffinately keep an eye on them

I guess what I mean is the inquisition isn't a cohesive entity by a long shot. There could be a dozen individuals who know the origins of the blood ravens, but they also know why that is their origin. So if some upstart inquisitor happens to find out the blood ravens are from a traitor geneseed, you can be sure someone higher up is going to shut him up pretty quickly.

So what your saying is in some sense the inquisition works against itself in a way?

I think if Adrastia found out, she would be cool with it after they culled the heretics out of the chapter.

When creating the Dawn of Wars there were 2 ways to approach it, either go with a well known chapter (Ultramarines) or an unknown. If they went with the UM they would have been constrained by the Codex or risk fan displeasure over ignoring fluff so they used an unknown chapter.

After the success of the game, they started to flesh out the chapter more starting with the novels by C.S. Goto. During one of his novels he made a refrence that HINTED in the broadest term that the Blood Ravens have special ties with the 1000 Sons. This has to do with the similar color scheme (Pre Heresy) high number of Psykers, and Ahriman (sp?) refering to them as brothers {I havnt read the books actually but I think I said that right]

THQ/Relic decided to run with this and during the release of Dark Crusade they added to this theory. In DC the Blood Ravens were noted as being partially corrupt due to their willingness to engage the loyalist of the Imperium in the Imperial Guard (Mentioned in BR intro, Confirmed in DoW 2 Chaos Rising). How Abaddon hates the Blood Ravens with the same hate he holds for the original founding chapters (mentioned if Chaos takes BR capital) and how the Blood Ravens have been lying to the Imperium about their founding with the true records dating as far back as the Horus Heresy (mentioned if IG takes BR capital)

Eliphas also hints that the BR Primarch is actually a Chaos Primarch but this CAN be seen as a simple attack against Thule for not knowing who his Primarch is due to the wording of the statement. (I dont remember when this is said, I think DURING the Chaos attack)

DC also had hints that they are Word Bearers that that would take too long to explain. It is based off Eliphas was mentioned fighting on Kronus during the HH against Ultramariens and he is scene with the Blood Ravens banner



Things were kept quite untilt he release of 1000 Sons HH book which includes a prophecy. ""The Ravens. I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied"

In a HH short story a 1000 Sons that was not a Prospero mentions the "Knowledge is Power" motto of the BR. (However this could be a generic phrase)

Finally ADB (the writer) was quoted as explaining that the writers of the HH series and THQ have written it so that there are enough to hint this but not enough to confirm it

True but using my method of thinking they use tainted gene seed which in and of itself doesnt make them heretical. But wouldnt that make them very vulnerable to the taint of chaos?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Finally ADB (the writer) was quoted as explaining that the writers of the HH series and THQ have written it so that there are enough to hint this but not enough to confirm it

So you think its all intentional to make us be really interested and kind of leave it off to player imagination becuase I can deffinately see for some player fan fiction or a say 40k army that is blood ravens but chaos aligned.

Theunqle wrote:True but using my method of thinking they use tainted gene seed which in and of itself doesnt make them heretical. But wouldnt that make them very vulnerable to the taint of chaos?

Unfortunately heresy by bloodline is more than enough evidence to make one a heretic. There's not really any evidence that traitor geneseed is more vulnerable to chaos, more that the primarchs led their legions to chaos. However, in the case of the Thousand Sons, they suffered from a condition known as the flesh change, which would've caused them to deteriorate into nothing.

Theunqle wrote: So you think its all intentional to make us be really interested and kind of leave it off to player imagination becuase I can deffinately see for some player fan fiction or a say 40k army that is blood ravens but chaos aligned.

It's certainly viable. The storyline of DoW2 pretty much consists of the chapter master turning to chaos and taking large chunks of the chapter with him. It'd be easy to design a blood raven army around that time period.

Personally, my favorite aspect of the Blood Ravens is their tendency to steal relics and artifacts from other chapters. They claim these as "gifts" when the chapter they were originally from has no record of offering it to them. It's kinda refreshing to see a chapter acting a bit more unscrupulous.

jareddm wrote:I guess what I mean is the inquisition isn't a cohesive entity by a long shot. There could be a dozen individuals who know the origins of the blood ravens, but they also know why that is their origin. So if some upstart inquisitor happens to find out the blood ravens are from a traitor geneseed, you can be sure someone higher up is going to shut him up pretty quickly.

Or murder him, like the Inquisitor that was murdered in a Blood Raven's chapter keep (Source is DoW 2 wargear)

To answer how this is connection is possible there are these possibilites

1) Assuming they BR were founded during the HH as hinted in Dark Crusade then I can think of a few POSSIBLE ways. The most unlikely one would be that these TS never took up arms against the Space Wolves and immediately layed down their weapons (knowing the Wolves they probably would have executed them) however these men could have been the founders. Again this one is fairly unlikely but possible after all a FEW BRs continued to serve the Imperium after Prospero, but these men mostly joined Garro and his newly forming Inquisition/Grey Knights

2) Another is that the Rubic spell actually worked properly on these men. Still loyal to the Emperor and seeing that Magnus was now in league with Chaos, they left the TS and went into hidding.

3) Another possible idea is that these men, when the TS were teleported off the world, these men did not leave with them becasue either they were unable to be reached or they were not on world. After all Magnus did send away at least one of his companies so they survived the Battle of Prospero and were still loyal to the Imperium (Confirmed in Prospero Burns and Age of Darkness) Like before these men would go into hidding and wait trying to buildup their own strength from the fallen battle brothers and geneseed on the planet.

Now all of these (especially 2 and 3) share the same end, the survivors go into hidding and start rebuilding. During the confusion of the Age of Apoctasy, notes about foundings were lost which is why there is so much confusion on newly founded chapters. Many chapters are unsure where they came from and even the Imperium has no idea how many chapters actually exist. Around the M37 foundings (22nd, 23rd, and 24th are all possible) The finally up to strength Blood Ravens would have pushed themselves in and began serving the Imperium as an active and visible member. This would explain why no one knows much about their past with the exception of the highest commanders who would be keeping a secret from not only the chapter but even the Blood Raven warriors (DoW 2 mentions this when Thule discovers after DC what the records on Kronus actually contained. A fallingout occurs between him and chapter command)

As long as they had 50-200 men they could rebuild to chapter strength sense we have seen it done before





Did I forget anything?

Galdos wrote:
3) Another possible idea is that these men, when the TS were teleported off the world, these men did not leave with them becasue either they were unable to be reached or they were not on world. After all Magnus did send away at least one of his companies so they survived the Battle of Prospero and were still loyal to the Imperium (Confirmed in Prospero Burns and Age of Darkness) Like before these men would go into hidding and wait trying to buildup their own strength from the fallen battle brothers and geneseed on the planet.

This is the most accepted theory among those who believe the Blood Ravens are direct TS descendents. But it still doesn't explain why they never succumbed to the flesh change like the other TS marines. And combining this theory with the second theory doesn't work as it's been stated that Ahriman's spell didn't work because they weren't on the planet of the sorcerers at the time.

This is why I still favor the idea that the Blood Ravens were a later founding chapter that happened to use modified TS geneseed. That eventually some mago's crazy experiment paid off and they thought they had rid the geneseed of the flesh change while maintaining the majority of the geneseed's psychic potential.

Iv'e seen another chapter still rebuildable even though it has about 12 guys left.

jareddm wrote:

Galdos wrote:
3) Another possible idea is that these men, when the TS were teleported off the world, these men did not leave with them becasue either they were unable to be reached or they were not on world. After all Magnus did send away at least one of his companies so they survived the Battle of Prospero and were still loyal to the Imperium (Confirmed in Prospero Burns and Age of Darkness) Like before these men would go into hidding and wait trying to buildup their own strength from the fallen battle brothers and geneseed on the planet.

This is the most accepted theory among those who believe the Blood Ravens are direct TS descendents. But it still doesn't explain why they never succumbed to the flesh change like the other TS marines. And combining this theory with the second theory doesn't work as it's been stated that Ahriman's spell didn't work because they weren't on the planet of the sorcerers at the time.

This is why I still favor the idea that the Blood Ravens were a later founding chapter that happened to use modified TS geneseed. That eventually some mago's crazy experiment paid off and they thought they had rid the geneseed of the flesh change while maintaining the majority of the geneseed's psychic potential.

Well I can think of 2 possible solutions (one I just thought of on the spot)
One is that Ahriman's spell was screwed up because of the warp that twisted his spell to do what it did. The marines that were in the regular universe however didnt have the warp to feth with them so they were actually cured of this problem. Its the warp, the Warp makes up its own rules lol. (Possible, but kind of .... strange)

The other I can think of is that Tzeentch (it was his virus after all) simply no longer had a use for these marines and stopped controlling the virus so it kind of just... died. Tzeentch created the virus knowing it would lead Magnus to him seeking help and he would be able to corrupt him that way through the longest and most complicated "Just as Planned" moment but hey, its Tzeentch. Now all of that IS confirmed except the first thing about Tzeentch simply no longer cared about the virus. The use for the virus was used and he no longer need to manipulate the virus, without him controling it, the virus just ... didnt do anything anymore.



Both of them are flawed. The biggest hole in the BR are 1000 Sons theory is that right there, simply no one knows how to resolve this virus properly


You have a nice idea jareddm

Galdos wrote:

Well I can think of 2 possible solutions (one I just thought of on the spot)
One is that Ahriman's spell was screwed up because of the warp that twisted his spell to do what it did. The marines that were in the regular universe however didnt have the warp to feth with them so they were actually cured of this problem. Its the warp, the Warp makes up its own rules lol. (Possible, but kind of .... strange)

The other I can think of is that Tzeentch (it was his virus after all) simply no longer had a use for these marines and stopped controlling the virus so it kind of just... died. Tzeentch created the virus knowing it would lead Magnus to him seeking help and he would be able to corrupt him that way through the longest and most complicated "Just as Planned" moment but hey, its Tzeentch. Now all of that IS confirmed except the first thing about Tzeentch simply no longer cared about the virus. The use for the virus was used and he no longer need to manipulate the virus, without him controling it, the virus just ... didnt do anything anymore.

I've seen the second theory before and I don't have a true answer for it. However, I'd like to use it to further my own theory if I may.

Tzeentch is just as much the chaos god of hope(false or otherwise) as he of change and trickery. I feel the BR's fall to chaos in DoW2 was the "Just as Planned" moment you're referring to. Whether the flesh change simply stopped by Tzeentch's whim after the heresy or by technological intervention at a later date isn't important. What is important is the hope was instilled in the BR's that they no longer suffered from this affliction. That if they could bury their past and move on, everything would be alright. But the fact that the chapter ended up subverted by chaos from a completely different angle, regardless of all the work that was done, was Tzeentch's plan. That all that hope was shattered and it was one last kick in the teeth to Magnus (who may or may not be monitoring the BR, we don't know).

I didn't see it specifically mentioned so;

At there very end of the short story in Age of Darkness, one of the 1k Son's guys is running away through the ruins and it describes the dusty, scratched up raven icon on his shoulder pad. (his cult in the chapter had raven for there symbol)

They have hinted about as hard as you can without actually declaring it. Now, how they actually came to rebuild in hiding until they could pass themselves off as a new chapter, who knows, and we will never know.

Ah, so much light shed on the subject. I love the backstory. What came first the HH novels or the games? becuase if the book did. Relic could've taken just that one scene and ran with it. which if that is the case they did a pretty good job doing it

SickSix wrote:They have hinted about as hard as you can without actually declaring it. Now, how they actually came to rebuild in hiding until they could pass themselves off as a new chapter, who knows, and we will never know.

Well if their penchant for stealing relics and equipment from other chapters is any indication, I think they would have very little difficulty passing as a newer chapter.

Theunqle wrote:Ah, so much light shed on the subject. I love the backstory. What came first the HH novels or the games? becuase if the book did. Relic could've taken just that one scene and ran with it. which if that is the case they did a pretty good job doing it

The games came first, which is why some feel the hints in the HH novels were too heavy-handed, changing the question away from "What is the origin of the Blood Ravens?" to "True Thousand Sons or Thousand Sons successor?" In any case, no one can say there's any chapter quite like the Blood Ravens

Grey Templar wrote:They then went into hiding till the Heresy blew over and popped up somewhere and said "Hey, we're the Blood Ravens" "founding?" "Sorry, we can't remember when we were founded because our Librarian tripped over a dataslate and destroyed the information"

The guy who founded the Blood Ravens was basically one of very few survivors (it's unclear if the ship he arrived in was destroyed by the World Eaters, so it could be that he was the only survivor). It would probably take several thousand years for a chapter-worth of Marines to be generated from a single set of donor geneseed, say roughly until the time the Ravens suddenly popped up during one of the subsequent mass-foundings.