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I feel like all legions had some loyalist. For example Loken from the Sons of horus (Black legion). So it is quite a possibility. Not everyone in the legion is going to agree with Magnus turning to Kaos

Brother Thomas wrote:I feel like all legions had some loyalist. For example Loken from the Sons of horus (Black legion). So it is quite a possibility. Not everyone in the legion is going to agree with Magnus turning to Kaos

Pretty much. But the Primarchs had a pretty good grasp on how their captains and officers felt about the subject, and killed them off on Istvaan.

But obviously the Thousand Sons weren't present there. I would say that the resistance to the acceptance of Chaos in the Thousand Sons would have been one of the lowest out of all the Legions. They were all psychers, and the Emperor basically told the Legions at Nikaea that you shouldn't be doing that stuff. They relied on it and looked to their abilities for guidence in what they do, so being told you aren't allowed to really utilize a gift you are given seems like it would ostrasize most of the Thousand Sons right off the bat. Then coupled with knowing that the Emperor (in reality Horus) condemned them to die by the Space Wolves hands really would put a doubt into their minds as to whether it's a good idea or not to side with the Emperor or the side that doesn't get them killed. I know which I would choose.

The world eaters probably had a lower rate of loyalists, since Angron always hated the emperor and would have passed it on to his legion.
There would still have been small loyalist segments from every legion that survived, though they would be dead by M.41

The Thousand Sons were NOT all psykers. If they were, there wouldn't have been any Rubric Marines. Yes, they had noticeably more psykers than other Legions, but the psychic members of the Thousand Sons legion were still in the minority.

Re. the Rubric of Ahriman: "They summoned an immense storm of arcane power that engulfed the Planet of the Sorcerers, and from within came bolts of lightning that struck down any of the Thousand Sons who did not possess psychic abilities. ...The spell transformed the vast majority of the Marines of the Legion into mindless, undead spectres whose souls are trapped within their ancient suits of Power Armour."

I don't know why people keep thinking the Sons were ALL psykers.

As for whether or not they would've resisted acceptance of Chaos... honestly, we'll never really know. Given how things turned out, they never got the chance to choose one way or another. Though if the Blood Ravens really are descended from the Fourth Fellowship of the Thousand Sons, then they at least chose to remain loyal instead of following their primarch and the rest of their Legion to Chaos.

Because they were all Psykers.

They were, however, not all Sorcerers.

Sorcerers and Psykers are not one and the same. A Psyker can be a Sorcerer and vice versa, but they are not mutually exclusive. A Sorcerer can be someone with no psyker talents whatsoever but who gets their hands on forbidden knowledge/rites.

All of the Thousand Sons exhibited some kind of psychic talent. However they did not manifest it all the same way; some could conjure fire and shape it as a weapon while others could create shields of pure force to defend themselves from attack while others could see the possible outcomes of an attack. It was rare for one to exhibit all of the various powers at once however.

I never said anything about sorcerers. People keep saying that the Sons were all PSYKERS. Which isn't the case at all.

And no, NOT all the Sons exhibited or even had psychic talent. If they did, then they would've all been psykers, and therefore there wouldn't have been any Rubric Marines.

Again: "... bolts of lightning that struck down any of the Thousand Sons who did not possess psychic abilities." "The spell transformed the vast majority". Therefore, the vast majority of Thousands Sons were not psykers in any way, shape or form.

I can't really comment on the sorcerer thing though. Personally, I don't think any of the Sons were sorcerers as such before the Heresy. Magnus might've been dipping into sorcerer territory, but the rest of the Sons - at least, those who WERE psykers - relied on their own psychic powers (telepathy, telekineses, biomancy, pyromancy, clairvoyance/Athanaean, Raptora, Pavoni, Pyrae, Corvidae) and not outside sources. Though I suppose it could be argued that the use of Tutelaries was also touching upon the sorcerous - but then again the Tutelaries were just used to boost and channel the Sons' own powers, not give them powers they didn't already have.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:And Garro, Rubio etc etc aren't joining another Legion, they are being formed into a new one.

How is that different from the Fourth Fellowship survivors being reformed into the Blood Ravens?

That wasn't my point, I was questioning what was said about many Chapters taking in loyalists from the Traitor Legions. Forming a brand new Chapter isn't taking into an existing one.

Currently, bar what we have, there isn't anything that goes into what happens with this lot. The only thing so far is the hint with the Grey Nights and Inquisition, but the IA article said as much. It also said that

The captain, indeed all of the Eisenstein seventy who survived the gauntlet to reach Terra, were placed in custody pending deposition by the Emperor himself, a deposition which, after his fall and enshrinement in the Golden Throne, never came.

We know that isn't true of Garro and Qruze, but what of the other 60 odd Death Guard, maybe thats true? Until the Heresy series has run its course, we won't know and there isn't anything to say that they joined other Legions as far as I know.

So we know that the 4th Fellowship are Blood Ravens for sure now do we?

YES, I DO.

Kanluwen wrote:Because they were all Psykers.

They were, however, not all Sorcerers.

Sorcerers and Psykers are not one and the same. A Psyker can be a Sorcerer and vice versa, but they are not mutually exclusive. A Sorcerer can be someone with no psyker talents whatsoever but who gets their hands on forbidden knowledge/rites.

All of the Thousand Sons exhibited some kind of psychic talent. However they did not manifest it all the same way; some could conjure fire and shape it as a weapon while others could create shields of pure force to defend themselves from attack while others could see the possible outcomes of an attack. It was rare for one to exhibit all of the various powers at once however.

Dude, you gotta read Codex: Chaos Space Marines. The Rubric only affected those marines WITHOUT psychic abilities. The novel A Thousand Sons never mentioned that the entire Legion was composed of psykers, rather, the command element was almost entirely composed of psykers, with non-psyker commanders in the minority. This is also supported by the latest CSM Codex, which states that the vast majority of the Legion, which did not possess any psychic abilities, were reduced to dust.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines was published before "A Thousand Sons" and uses old fluff as its basis.

If we do not see a change, it is laziness on GW's part. Graham McNeill has laid down the background on this. The Thousand Sons were all psykers. They were not all super-powerful psykers, but they were psykers.

It never specifically said in A Thousand Sons that they were ALL psykers. Yes, the book focused on the psykers, but that's because they were the command element, and most of the Sons wouldn't reach command element unless they were psykers.

If they were all psykers, the Rubric wouldn't have made Rubric Marines. And we know that McNeil hasn't changed that Rubric Marines happened, 'cause it's mentioned in the prologue of A Thousand Sons. Hell, it's the whole POINT of the prologue.

Tadashi wrote:YES, I DO.

Please Tadashi, provide your citation and exact source for this confirmation that Blood Ravens are loyalist Thousand Sons. No rumors or hints at please, just the specific confirmation

Kanluwen wrote:Codex: Chaos Space Marines was published before "A Thousand Sons" and uses old fluff as its basis.

If we do not see a change, it is laziness on GW's part. Graham McNeill has laid down the background on this. The Thousand Sons were all psykers. They were not all super-powerful psykers, but they were psykers.

The Codex is the ultmate canon. Regardless of what the novel says, not all Thousand Sons were psykers. Which they were not. All the novel says, and what we've been trying to say, and you're too stubborn to notice, is that what the novel says is that the command structure of the legion was dominated by psykers, with non-psychic commanders in the minority. All Blood Ravens are scholars, and so were the Thousand Sons - does that mean all Blood Ravens are psykers? Of course not. There are only two things that can overturn Codex material: either GW says so, which they did to the squats, or a newer Codex EXPLICITLY contradicts the older material. The Rubric Marines are still there, and the Codex states that the non-psychic majority of the legion were 'transmuted' into Rubric Marines - all Thousand Sons were scholars, but most were ordinary Astartes, if an Astartes can even be called ordinary.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:YES, I DO.

Please Tadashi, provide your citation and exact source for this confirmation that Blood Ravens are loyalist Thousand Sons. No rumors or hints at please, just the specific confirmation

IMO You should note I posted I, not we.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:YES, I DO.

Please Tadashi, provide your citation and exact source for this confirmation that Blood Ravens are loyalist Thousand Sons. No rumors or hints at please, just the specific confirmation

IMO You should note I posted I, not we.

Perhaps I would also like to see this to put my mind at rest

BaneGuard wrote:The world eaters probably had a lower rate of loyalists, since Angron always hated the emperor and would have passed it on to his legion.
There would still have been small loyalist segments from every legion that survived, though they would be dead by M.41

Night Lords - probably all turned Traitor as the whole Legion went rogue after the destruction of Nostramo, and they were all murderers and rapists at this stage anyway.
The Word Bearers - had an internal cull after the first Pilgrimage, so not any likely there.
Iron Warriors - possibly some as with the small group mentioned earlier, although they were more for their Primarch than the Emperor.
World Eaters - most would have died at Istvann, Varren seems to have been the only one to escape when Angron pledged allegiance to Horus.
Emperors Children - Istvann again, but Saul Tarvitz, Ancient Rylanor and others might have survived. The rest followed Fulgrim.
Death Guard - Istvann once more but we know for sure that 70 got away. The small pockets on Istvann were likely all killed, as it mentions that their guns had gone silent, and if there were any loyalists left on the fleet they would all have been turned when the Destroyer Hive was unleashed by Nurgle.
Sons of Horus - and Istvann again, possibly some survived here, 'Cerberus' did and possibly the few that were with Nero, if they managed to escape with Saul.
Alpha Legion - Well, if Legion is anything to go by then they are all loyal

and the main ones

Thousand Sons - We have the whole of the 4th Company apparently, the rest were on Prospero. Would the 4th Company prove loyal after what the Space Wolves did though?

There also might be another few who were still imprisoned in Khangba Marwu

edit: spelling

Pilau Rice wrote:

Thousand Sons - We have the whole of the 4th Company apparently, the rest were on Prospero. Would the 4th Company prove loyal after what the Space Wolves did though?

There also might be another few who were still imprisoned in Khangba Marwu

The Fourth Fellowship was the size of a post-Heresy Chapter when they left Prospero, but only their equivalent of the First Company led by Captain Kalliston and Sergeant Arvida came back to Prospero after the fleet was dispersed by an enemy attack - either traitor or loyalist. It was stated that any survivors of the Fellowship were sought by Arvida once he finds a way back to the Geometric. At first glance, a mere hundred Astartes may seem incapable of rebuilding, but I've heard of a Chapter that rebuilt from a mere fifty Astartes, though I can't remember which Chapter. As for when, they probably joined the Ultramarines; for some reason, Guilliman was sending Champions of Ultramar to loyalist strongholds across the galaxy, and having them escort the survivors back to his legion. IMO, those survivors probably built new Chapters with mysterious origins under secret agreements brokered by Guilliman, as part of his bid to gain support for the Codex Astartes. If so, then the Blood Ravens, and any Chapter who may be descended from loyalist survivors, owe Guilliman and the Ultramarines a great deal for their very existence.

Regarding their loyalties, yes, they would remain loyal to the Emperor, especially since Arvida, who was most likely in command of the Fourth
after Kalliston was killed didn't blame the Emperor, but Magnus. He considered Magnus as unworthy of his loyalty since he couldn't see what was coming, and by that point Arvida and his fellow commanders would have realized that the Emperor wasn't trying to ostracize the Thousand Sons by banning sorcery, He was actually trying to protect them. The Thousand Sons knew more than anyone else about the powers and dangers of knowledge, and probably appreciated the reasons for the Emperor keeping the truth about Chaos to Himself.

Tadashi wrote:
but I've heard of a Chapter that rebuilt from a mere fifty Astartes

I know the Invaders rebuilt from about 12 guys, or at least the canon highly suggests they were. The blood ravens themselves
probably had the same sort of circumstances since half of them died in Kaurava and a heap died or went traitor during DOW 2.

BaneGuard wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
but I've heard of a Chapter that rebuilt from a mere fifty Astartes

I know the Invaders rebuilt from about 12 guys, or at least the canon highly suggests they were. The blood ravens themselves
probably had the same sort of circumstances since half of them died in Kaurava and a heap died or went traitor during DOW 2.

Five companies almost destroyed at Kaurava - Cyrus was one of the few survivors. The Third Company was virtually wiped out by Daemon Prince Kyras and his allies in the Black Legion at Cyrene. A least part of the First Company remained loyal under Captain Diomedes' command and helped in the destruction of the renegade Chapter Master-Chief Librarian. The Fifth Company is also probably still intact, under its new Captain. By this assessment, at least a hundred Blood Ravens should still be alive under Chapter Master Angelos, and at most, between one and two hundred Blood Ravens.

Also, the 5th company would be slightly under strength after its fights starting from dawn of war 1. Even more so if you follow the fluff from the dawn of war omnibus (which most people don't seem to do).
Also, 10th company would likely be under strength since they were in the dawn of war 2 series in major strength.
I can't really vouch for the accuracy of the second statement, and know its an assumption instead of solid evidence.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:YES, I DO.

Please Tadashi, provide your citation and exact source for this confirmation that Blood Ravens are loyalist Thousand Sons. No rumors or hints at please, just the specific confirmation

IMO You should note I posted I, not we.

Perhaps I would also like to see this to put my mind at rest

Ok, so the novel that was the primary basis for my statement was (IIRC) Courage and Honor, where Captian Ventris mentions that his brothers were treating him like they treated some of the brothers whose Geneseed was from traitor stock.

BaneGuard wrote:The world eaters probably had a lower rate of loyalists, since Angron always hated the emperor and would have passed it on to his legion.
There would still have been small loyalist segments from every legion that survived, though they would be dead by M.41

Actually, Outcast Dead makes it seem that a number of World Eaters would've had no issue in turning on Angron in favor of the Emperor. That legion loyalties were strong but the Emperor was above all. It's always nice to see the personality of a legion being differentiated from the personality of its primarch.

Skits wrote:It never specifically said in A Thousand Sons that they were ALL psykers. Yes, the book focused on the psykers, but that's because they were the command element, and most of the Sons wouldn't reach command element unless they were psykers.

The Legion is organized into Cabals based upon how their powers are manifest.

So what you're saying is that the Legion has this great big ol' mass of individuals who are all lumped into one Cabal of Red Shirts.

If they were all psykers, the Rubric wouldn't have made Rubric Marines. And we know that McNeil hasn't changed that Rubric Marines happened, 'cause it's mentioned in the prologue of A Thousand Sons. Hell, it's the whole POINT of the prologue.

If they were all psykers, the Rubric would have made Rubric Marines if they've decided to further define it to be that those who were "adept" at sorcery or who had not experienced the Flesh Change were safe.

The psykers of the Legion were organised into cabals. Not the entire legion. Those who didn't have psychic powers wouldn't have been in a cabal - the cabals were pretty much entirely unrelated to the overall structure of the Legion. Otherwise they probably wouldn't have even bothered with Chapters/Fellowships, especially when certain cabals tended to congregate in certain Fellowships.

If they were all psykers, the Rubric would have made Rubric Marines if they've decided to further define it to be that those who were "adept" at sorcery or who had not experienced the Flesh Change were safe.

But GW hasn't further defined that. If anything, it's been the exact opposite. Any time the Rubric's been mentioned, it's specifically stated that it only turned the Sons with little to NO psychic power into Rubricae. Until GW specifically retcons that, that's how it is.

I'd really like to know why you're so adamant that all the Sons were psykers. Where's the proof? A Thousand Sons doesn't say anything about them all being psykers, therefore doesn't contradict codex fluff, therefore meaning that the codex fluff still stands.

Skits wrote:The psykers of the Legion were organised into cabals. Not the entire legion. Those who didn't have psychic powers wouldn't have been in a cabal - the cabals were pretty much entirely unrelated to the overall structure of the Legion. Otherwise they probably wouldn't have even bothered with Chapters/Fellowships, especially when certain cabals tended to congregate in certain Fellowships.

Except the Cabals were related to the structure of the Legion, as the Chapters/Fellowships were directly related.

If they were all psykers, the Rubric would have made Rubric Marines if they've decided to further define it to be that those who were "adept" at sorcery or who had not experienced the Flesh Change were safe.

But GW hasn't further defined that. If anything, it's been the exact opposite. Any time the Rubric's been mentioned, it's specifically stated that it only turned the Sons with little to NO psychic power into Rubricae. Until GW specifically retcons that, that's how it is.

GW hasn't printed anything about the Rubric since the Chaos Space Marines codex, written almost 5-6 years before "A Thousand Sons".
The Black Library has.

The Black Library's "Horus Heresy" series is done with such obscene amounts of control in regards to the material that if McNeill had deviated too far from the established bit(which he did) he likely would have needed express approval to do so.

I'd really like to know why you're so adamant that all the Sons were psykers. Where's the proof? A Thousand Sons doesn't say anything about them all being psykers, therefore doesn't contradict codex fluff, therefore meaning that the codex fluff still stands.

I'd suggest you go back and reread "A Thousand Sons". It's made very clear that they are all psychic and that those who were turned "to dust" were those suffering the Flesh Change.

That's the whole point of Ahriman performing the Rubric. It was to stop the Flesh Change, which was caused by the psychic powers of a Thousand Son being used haphazardly.

Back to the blood ravens, My thought is that they are like the thousand sons because they want to perserve information in the form of relics. Regardless of who the relic was from they want it and will have it. now look at the thousand sons, they wanted information as well but were a subject of "just as planned" by Tzeentch so they didnt finish the reserch of knowledge of the past.
Looks the same to me

jareddm wrote:

BaneGuard wrote:The world eaters probably had a lower rate of loyalists, since Angron always hated the emperor and would have passed it on to his legion.
There would still have been small loyalist segments from every legion that survived, though they would be dead by M.41

Actually, Outcast Dead makes it seem that a number of World Eaters would've had no issue in turning on Angron in favor of the Emperor. That legion loyalties were strong but the Emperor was above all. It's always nice to see the personality of a legion being differentiated from the personality of its primarch.

Really, the distinction always was between the Astartes who were Terran-born (these guys tended to value the ideals of the Great Crusade and the word of the Emperor more than individual Legion traditions and their Primarchs), and those who were recruited from the planets that the Primarchs were found on (who, of course, valued their regional traditions and were more loyal to the Primarchs they've been following for years already).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
I'd suggest you go back and reread "A Thousand Sons". It's made very clear that they are all psychic and that those who were turned "to dust" were those suffering the Flesh Change.

That's the whole point of Ahriman performing the Rubric. It was to stop the Flesh Change, which was caused by the psychic powers of a Thousand Son being used haphazardly.

The Rubric dustifying those who were undergoing the Flesh Change and those who were weaker in power does not have to be mutually exclusive. After all, Ahriman felt the change coming on and was able to resist to a certain extent due to his mastery of the Enumerations.

Omegus wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I'd suggest you go back and reread "A Thousand Sons". It's made very clear that they are all psychic and that those who were turned "to dust" were those suffering the Flesh Change.

That's the whole point of Ahriman performing the Rubric. It was to stop the Flesh Change, which was caused by the psychic powers of a Thousand Son being used haphazardly.

The Rubric dustifying those who were undergoing the Flesh Change and those who were weaker in power does not have to be mutually exclusive. After all, Ahriman felt the change coming on and was able to resist to a certain extent due to his mastery of the Enumerations.

Certainly true!

It does not really do too much to refute my point about the Legion being composed entirely of psykers, with varying degrees of power.

How were the cults related? All they were concerned with was what a Son's primary psychic power was. The cults had nothing to do with the Fellowships, and vice versa. You could have every single cult represented in one Fellowship, even in one squad. Or a high concentration of one cult in a squad or Fellowship, though not to the exclusion of other cults - there was no rhyme nor reason to the mix of cult and Fellowship.

It'll be interesting to see what the new Chaos 'dex will say about Rubricae, heh. And out of curiosity, how specifically did McNeil deviate? Apart from establishing the cults, which I wouldn't consider deviating so much as just adding some extra detail.

I've read A Thousand Sons many times - heck, I'm halfway through another re-read now. And I never got the impression that every single Son was psychic. So it mustn't be as clear as you think it is. The story just focused on the psychic characters because they were the ones in the position of power, they were the high-rankers, they were specifically the ones the story was about.

Granted, given how A Thousand Sons did tend to focus on those strong psychic characters, since the Sekhmet all had to be high-level psykers to even qualify for it, and the captains all earned their ranks partly because of their own psychic powers, I can understand why people could get the impression that every single Son was psychic, even though that's not the case. It's merely an impression with no substantiated basis in actual, clearly stated fact.

As for the flesh change, that wasn't caused by psychic powers, it was caused by the Sons' unstable geneseed. Yes, use - or overuse - of psychic powers could exacerbate the effects, but weren't the underlying cause of it. The flesh change could affect every Son, not just the ones with psychic powers. And I never got the impression that those who were turned to dust were only those suffering the Flesh Change - again, not as clear as you think it is.

Hell, Ahriman himself has suffered at least the early stages of the Flesh Change, though he's been strong enough to resist it. If the Rubric WAS meant to turn those who suffered the Flesh Change to dust, Ahriman would also be a Rubricae.

Skits wrote:How were the cults related? All they were concerned with was what a Son's primary psychic power was. The cults had nothing to do with the Fellowships, and vice versa. You could have every single cult represented in one Fellowship, even in one squad. Or a high concentration of one cult in a squad or Fellowship, though not to the exclusion of other cults - there was no rhyme nor reason to the mix of cult and Fellowship.

It'll be interesting to see what the new Chaos 'dex will say about Rubricae, heh. And out of curiosity, how specifically did McNeil deviate? Apart from establishing the cults, which I wouldn't consider deviating so much as just adding some extra detail.

I think you just proved my point for me.

The Rubric (and its effects on the Thousand Sons) was never really described in exacting detail before "A Thousand Sons".

... how did that prove your point?

And A Thousand Sons didn't describe the Rubric or its effects in exacting detail, either. Hell, I'd say the older codex fluff still described the Rubric better than A Thousand Sons did.

Age of Darkness: Rebirth

SickSix wrote:Age of Darkness: Rebirth

Spoiler:

*Arvida is fleeing the World Eaters on Prospero*
'Knowledge is power' he breathed.
Then he turned away from the scene, and stole quickly back into the occlusion of the ruins. As he went, the dim red light of the angry magma fires caught on his shoulder-guard, exposing the serpentine star set about the black raven-head of his cult discipline.
Then he was gone a shadow among shadows.

From the ashes of our father's folly, be reborn, Ravens of Blood!

Knowledge is power is a common phrase throughout the Imperium

It's the whole basis on how the Ultramarines fight.