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The Imperium and Eldar and Imperium and Tau already sort of have a non-aggression agreement. They don't fight whenever they encounter each other, just when their own specific and mutually exclusive goals come into conflict.

Another problem is that the Imperium doesn't understand there's a Dark Eldar. They think it's all one big confusing faction which sometimes tries to talk to them and sometimes tries to rape them to death.

Another popular misconception is that the Imperium is the cause of lack of peace with their unshakable dogma. How many times are they the aggressor against outside factions in any of the stories? They are almost always just defending themselves.

BlaxicanX wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Actually that wouldn't be the end of the Tyranids but would be the end of the segmentum fleet. In the 4th edition Tyranid Codex, it was said explicitly that the Segmentum Solar fleet was incapable of directly defeating Hive Fleet Leviathan.

4th Ed Tyranid Codex isn't canon anymore, and besides, Codexes are written in an in-universe perspective. Random statements like that have no bearing without context.

If it is not specifically retconned it is still canon.

Can you provide a source for this?

4th Edition Codices are also not written in an in-universe perspective and the relevant passage was explicitly written in an out of universe omniscient narrator perspective.

Could you quote the passage and provide the page number, please?

Of course I can:

This would slow its advance long enough for Battlefleets Solar and Tempestus to muster...Kryptman had realised that Leviathan was of such size that they could not possibly halt it, even with the combined might of the sector's Battlefleets.

p.20-21, 4th edition Tyranid Codex

Later on that same page 21, after the success of Kryptman's plan, it says how the fleets were relieved to gain some time to repair (even though they didn't know why) as they had already been badly mauled trying to hold back Leviathan:

To the immense relief of the Imperial high command, path taken by the unstoppable horde of the Tyranids seemed to be veering away from Imperial space into the Ork-held Octavius system. Not one of them could account for this sudden change of direction but it gave the Imperial fleets, badly mauled in the last few weeks of staving off further incursion, a chance to regroup and repair.

p.21, 4th edition Tyranid Codex

There is no evidence of any form of in-character narration or evidence of the narrative being from an in-universe document. The narrator is telling the full situation, which the individuals in-universe were not fully aware of, and the behavior of the Imperial high command is not what one would expect of a force that easily had the Tyranid menace in hand. Their relief shows clearly they were being swamped and were relieved at being granted a breathing space.

Iracundus wrote:

To the immense relief of the Imperial high command, path taken by the unstoppable horde of the Tyranids seemed to be veering away from Imperial space into the Ork-held Octavius system. Not one of them could account for this sudden change of direction but it gave the Imperial fleets, badly mauled in the last few weeks of staving off further incursion, a chance to regroup and repair.

p.21, 4th edition Tyranid Codex

There is no evidence of any form of in-character narration or evidence of the narrative being from an in-universe document. The narrator is telling the full situation, which the individuals in-universe were not fully aware of, and the behavior of the Imperial high command is not what one would expect of a force that easily had the Tyranid menace in hand. Their relief shows clearly they were being swamped and were relieved at being granted a breathing space.

This might not be the Solar fleet, and could just be reffering to the Tempestus fleets (which would have been on the frontline of the incursion).

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

To the immense relief of the Imperial high command, path taken by the unstoppable horde of the Tyranids seemed to be veering away from Imperial space into the Ork-held Octavius system. Not one of them could account for this sudden change of direction but it gave the Imperial fleets, badly mauled in the last few weeks of staving off further incursion, a chance to regroup and repair.

p.21, 4th edition Tyranid Codex

There is no evidence of any form of in-character narration or evidence of the narrative being from an in-universe document. The narrator is telling the full situation, which the individuals in-universe were not fully aware of, and the behavior of the Imperial high command is not what one would expect of a force that easily had the Tyranid menace in hand. Their relief shows clearly they were being swamped and were relieved at being granted a breathing space.

This might not be the Solar fleet, and could just be reffering to the Tempestus fleets (which would have been on the frontline of the incursion).

Did you read the first quote? It said the combined might of Tempestus and Solar would not be sufficient. The frontline was both Solar and Tempestus, because Leviathan was attacking from below the galactic plane instead of along it as other past hive fleets had done.

No need to get so agitated, from your own quotes it's stated that it would take a while for the two fleets to muster. It's entirely possible that the badly mauled fleets refer to the scattered Tempestus fleets.

Hazardous Harry wrote:No need to get so agitated, from your own quotes it's stated that it would take a while for the two fleets to muster. It's entirely possible that the badly mauled fleets refer to the scattered Tempestus fleets.

I have provided evidence whereas you keep speculating. If you have proof for your contention that is was "just" Tempestus fleets, then provide it. It is not my responsibility to disprove every random speculation made by anyone, but rather the responsibility of those that make other claims to provide evidence for their stance. Many things are "possible" but until you can prove it to be the case, then it cannot be assumed to be true. It is also "possible" the Emperor is really a purple unicorn with infallible undetectable shape changing powers. Does this mean we should assume this to be true until this can be disproved (i.e. never)? The burden of proof rests on the one making the positive claim.

Bloody hell, I'm not saying anything like that. My speculation was just that, speculation.
Really, you could have handwaved it away with "Possible, but it's much more likely the second source refers to both fleets." I haven't come in here looking for an argument, so please stop acting like I'm the antagonist here.

DarknessEternal wrote:The Imperium and Eldar and Imperium and Tau already sort of have a non-aggression agreement. They don't fight whenever they encounter each other, just when their own specific and mutually exclusive goals come into conflict.

Another problem is that the Imperium doesn't understand there's a Dark Eldar. They think it's all one big confusing faction which sometimes tries to talk to them and sometimes tries to rape them to death.

Another popular misconception is that the Imperium is the cause of lack of peace with their unshakable dogma. How many times are they the aggressor against outside factions in any of the stories? They are almost always just defending themselves.

that is the best comment about dark eldar ever
the eldar and hummanity generaly dont attack each other. The tau will view anyone who accepts them as allies but they would completely control you. the dark eldar dont care because you cant do anything to them necrons want to kill everything which has something to do with the old ones (that includes the eldar and humanity and maybe tau). So humanity dosent really have that many options but the eldar work in independant craftworlds and very rarely fully ally (only if there is a major chaos problem such as the 13th dark crusade or the world of blood and tears).
thanks hazardous henry for pointing my lack of punctuation out i dont normally use it that much so forget

kavyaanshrike wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:The Imperium and Eldar and Imperium and Tau already sort of have a non-aggression agreement. They don't fight whenever they encounter each other, just when their own specific and mutually exclusive goals come into conflict.

Another problem is that the Imperium doesn't understand there's a Dark Eldar. They think it's all one big confusing faction which sometimes tries to talk to them and sometimes tries to rape them to death.

Another popular misconception is that the Imperium is the cause of lack of peace with their unshakable dogma. How many times are they the aggressor against outside factions in any of the stories? They are almost always just defending themselves.

that is the best comment about dark eldar ever and the eldar and hummanity generaly dont attack each other the tau will view anyone who accepts them as allies but they would completely control you the dark eldar dont care because you cant do anything to them necrons want to kill everything which has something to do with the old ones (that includes the eldar and humanity and maybe tau) so humanity dosent really have that many options but the eldar work in indeendant craftworlds and very rarely fully aly (only if there is a major chaos problem such as the 13th dark crusade or the world of blood and tears)

I hate to say this, but a bit of punctuation would have made this a lot more legible.

Necrons don't want to kill everything, not in the new fluff. They just want their empire back. Unfortunately, they must kill most people to get there

IHateNids wrote:Necrons don't want to kill everything, not in the new fluff. They just want their empire back. Unfortunately, they must kill most people to get there

Would they do alliances to do that (i am not that familiar with new necron fluff).

Depends on who with.

Eldar/Dark Eldar, No.
Chaos, probably not.
Imperium, maybe. It would depend on the terms the IoM laid down.
Tau, probably. The Tau would probably want the Crons in thier Empire though. I don't see any issue with this, but the Crons would use the tau as a free resorce to get them to some Tomb Worlds then stab them in the back

Tau had a similar expierience with Dark Eldar they became allies killed a load of tyranids and then the Dark Eldar killed 77,000 tau and several hundred thousand auxillaries

BaneGuard wrote:It may actually be possible to kill the orks IF technology was mixed and an-anti ork virus was made. Between the three races that would be possible. Just distributing it would be an issue.

Lady Malys of the Dark Eldar has one that worked to devestate and weaken one planets worth of Orks

In answedr to the main question

If somehow the Imperium of Man and the Mechanicus were able to work togther in a full and open alliance with the Eldar IMO - yeah that would make a significant difference of the balance of power - Same way if Tau techonolgy was able to be combined with Mechinicus knowledge than again major change and spread widespread across the whole Imperium.,

However thats such a change in the galaxy

Iracundus wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Actually that wouldn't be the end of the Tyranids but would be the end of the segmentum fleet. In the 4th edition Tyranid Codex, it was said explicitly that the Segmentum Solar fleet was incapable of directly defeating Hive Fleet Leviathan.

4th Ed Tyranid Codex isn't canon anymore, and besides, Codexes are written in an in-universe perspective. Random statements like that have no bearing without context.

If it is not specifically retconned it is still canon.

Can you provide a source for this?

4th Edition Codices are also not written in an in-universe perspective and the relevant passage was explicitly written in an out of universe omniscient narrator perspective.

Could you quote the passage and provide the page number, please?

Of course I can:

This would slow its advance long enough for Battlefleets Solar and Tempestus to muster...Kryptman had realised that Leviathan was of such size that they could not possibly halt it, even with the combined might of the sector's Battlefleets.

p.20-21, 4th edition Tyranid Codex

Later on that same page 21, after the success of Kryptman's plan, it says how the fleets were relieved to gain some time to repair (even though they didn't know why) as they had already been badly mauled trying to hold back Leviathan:

To the immense relief of the Imperial high command, path taken by the unstoppable horde of the Tyranids seemed to be veering away from Imperial space into the Ork-held Octavius system. Not one of them could account for this sudden change of direction but it gave the Imperial fleets, badly mauled in the last few weeks of staving off further incursion, a chance to regroup and repair.

p.21, 4th edition Tyranid Codex

There is no evidence of any form of in-character narration or evidence of the narrative being from an in-universe document. The narrator is telling the full situation, which the individuals in-universe were not fully aware of, and the behavior of the Imperial high command is not what one would expect of a force that easily had the Tyranid menace in hand. Their relief shows clearly they were being swamped and were relieved at being granted a breathing space.

Thank you for providing those quotes.

This.. is a perfect example of my point. This is not an omniscient narrator giving his opinion of the events. This is a narrator who is retelling the opinions of other characters.

"Kryptman came to the realization that-"

Who cares what Kryptman thinks? Kryptman's a fallible third party character. He's just a man.

"To the immense relief of Imperial High Command"-

Who cares what Im[erial High Command thinks? They're fallible third party characters. If Imperium fluff has shown us anything, it's that it's military officers,e specially non-astartes, are not perfect in their judgements at all.

Furthermore, Battlefleet's Solar and Tempestus are not Segmentum fleets. They are sector fleets, designed to protect only one sector. If you look back at what I said:

Imagine if a segmentum sized fleet attacked the hive fleets? That would be the end of the Tyranids."

A "segmentum fleet" would be several thousand times bigger than a mere sector fleet. So, I'm not really sure how the statements from the 4E codexes contradict my point at all.

We'd get more cute fan art of infantry units bumping fists!

Mr Morden wrote:
Lady Malys of the Dark Eldar has one that worked to devestate and weaken one planets worth of Orks

I completely forgot about that story. So yeah, it is possible to kill the orks then (possible, not probable).

BlaxicanX wrote:
Furthermore, Battlefleet's Solar and Tempestus are not Segmentum fleets. They are sector fleets, designed to protect only one sector. If you look back at what I said:

Imagine if a segmentum sized fleet attacked the hive fleets? That would be the end of the Tyranids."

A "segmentum fleet" would be several thousand times bigger than a mere sector fleet. So, I'm not really sure how the statements from the 4E codexes contradict my point at all.

And would leave vast swathes of the Imperium, including Holy Terra, completely undefended.

BlaxicanX wrote:
This.. is a perfect example of my point. This is not an omniscient narrator giving his opinion of the events. This is a narrator who is retelling the opinions of other characters.

"Kryptman came to the realization that-"

Who cares what Kryptman thinks? Kryptman's a fallible third party character. He's just a man.

It is the out of universe narrator saying that Kryptman realized a fact. A narrator in a historical book saying Hitler realized he could not win against the Soviets in sheer numbers is also an out of universe statement of a person realizing a factual situation.

Later this is backed up by the fact Imperial fleets ARE battered to the point of needing a reprieve.

The quote did not say Kryptman "felt" or "was of the opinion" that the fleets could not beat the Tyranids.

"To the immense relief of Imperial High Command"-

Who cares what Imerial High Command thinks? They're fallible third party characters. If Imperium fluff has shown us anything, it's that it's military officers,e specially non-astartes, are not perfect in their judgements at all.

You are dwelling on the wrong part of the quote. The relevant part is that the Imperial high command was relieved because they were being battered. The Imperial fleets being battered is a fact and event which did occur, which disproves your contention the Imperium would crush the Tyranids without breaking a sweat.

Furthermore, Battlefleet's Solar and Tempestus are not Segmentum fleets. They are sector fleets, designed to protect only one sector. If you look back at what I said:

Battlefleet Solar and Tempestus ARE segmentum fleets in the same way there is a Battlefleet Obscuras, as shown in the BFG rulebook on Imperial Navy organization. The Segmentum Battlefleet is the largest organizational block used by the Imperial navy. The use of "sector" is an error on GW's part. Battlefleet Gothic is a sector fleet. Battlefleet Obscuras is a SEGMENTUM organization that includes Battlefleet Gothic.

A "segmentum fleet" would be several thousand times bigger than a mere sector fleet. So, I'm not really sure how the statements from the 4E codexes contradict my point at all.

Your point is contradicted because the omniscient narrator showed Kryptman realizing the true scale of the Tyranids and the inability of the SEGMENTUM fleets to defeat them. It is also contradicted by the fact that in the actual engagements by the SEGMENTUM fleets, the Imperial fleets were so battered that the Imperial high command was relieved at gaining a reprieve. The Imperials are not going to be people to feel such relief if they were going to so easily crush the Tyranids as you claim. Nor would their fleets have suffered such losses in the first place if it was such a clear cut easy victory over the Tyranids. Despite these Imperial losses, the Tyranids were also still advancing. You seem to mistake an out of universe third person narrator relating character reactions and realizations as being in-universe writing.

The fact is the Imperium was losing in a brute force confrontation, and its one advantage of numbers was negated against an even more numerous enemy, which is what forced the use of more subtle means to gain time. It sounds to me you are unable to accept the possibility of the Imperium being unable to defeat something even when the explicit written evidence from the third person narrator contradicts you, to the point of trying to twist quotes to mean something other than what is said.

Iracundus wrote:

It is the out of universe narrator saying that Kryptman realized a fact.

The narration does not say that this is a fact. It says that that is the conclusion that Kryptman came too.

Battlefleet Solar and Tempestus ARE segmentum fleets in the same way there is a Battlefleet Obscuras, as shown in the BFG rulebook on Imperial Navy organization. The Segmentum Battlefleet is the largest organizational block used by the Imperial navy. The use of "sector" is an error on GW's part. Battlefleet Gothic is a sector fleet. Battlefleet Obscuras is a SEGMENTUM organization that includes Battlefleet Gothic.

You're saying that the two fleets that were battered by the Tyranids are a conglomeration of fleets from every sector in both segmentums? I find that hard to believe. I don't really know what you mean by "error on GW's part". GW decides how the canon works, not BFG. lol Force Orgs aside, there's

Sub-sector -> Sector -> Segmentum, in scale as far as systems. Sub-sectors have their own fleets designed to protect them and only them, as do sectors. A segmentum fleet in the context I'm referring to is a fleet comprised of every sector's fleet in a Segmentum combined into one fleet. Within the fluff no such fleet can exist because, as already stated by someone above, that would leave all those sectors undefended against other attacks. However, such a fleet would annihilate hive fleet Leviathin.

Iracundus wrote:
It sounds to me you are unable to accept the possibility of the Imperium being unable to defeat something even when the explicit written evidence from the third person narrator contradicts you, to the point of trying to twist quotes to mean something other than what is said.

Your ad hominems are cute. But ineffective.

BlaxicanX wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

It is the out of universe narrator saying that Kryptman realized a fact.

The narration does not say that this is a fact. It says that that is the conclusion that Kryptman came too.

And the conclusion is backed up by what actually happened: such as the Imperial fleets actually being battered and being unable to defeat the Tyranids.

It is no different from a writer using a narrator POV to say Hitler realized his forces could not win against the Soviets.

Battlefleet Solar and Tempestus ARE segmentum fleets in the same way there is a Battlefleet Obscuras, as shown in the BFG rulebook on Imperial Navy organization. The Segmentum Battlefleet is the largest organizational block used by the Imperial navy. The use of "sector" is an error on GW's part. Battlefleet Gothic is a sector fleet. Battlefleet Obscuras is a SEGMENTUM organization that includes Battlefleet Gothic.

You're saying that the two fleets that were battered by the Tyranids are a conglomeration of fleets from every sector in both segmentums? I find that hard to believe. I don't really know what you mean by "error on GW's part". GW decides how the canon works, not BFG. lol

It doesn't matter what you find "hard to believe". There is no sector called Solar and there is no sector called Tempestus. There is a segmentum called Solar and Tempestus respectively. The terms Battlefleet Solar and Battlefleet Tempestus are segmentum fleet terms, alongside Battlefleet Pacificus and Battlefleet Obscuras. GW wrote BFG so the BFG rulebook is absolutely valid as a source of information. As already mentioned, all fleets in Segmentum Solar are part of Battlefleet Solar just as all fleets in Segmentum Obscuras, such as Battlefleet Gothic, are part of Battlefleet Obscuras. Does it have to be every fleet from every sector? Not necessarily. However the use of no less than two segmentum fleet organizational terms instead of just a sector fleet shows it is more significant than just one sector's fleets.

Just because you personally find something hard to believe is not evidence. That is the logical fallacy of arguing from incredulity. Whether someone finds something hard to believe has no bearing on whether something is true. Go ask a primitive uncontacted tribe in the jungle whether they find it believable that people fly around the sky in shiny containers of metal.

Iracundus wrote:It doesn't matter what you find "hard to believe". There is no sector called Solar and there is no sector called Tempestus.

Oh, word?

However the use of no less than two segmentum fleet organizational terms instead of just a sector fleet shows it is more significant than just one sector's fleets.

"Bigger than one sector" = "Thousands of sectors"?

Just because you personally find something hard to believe is not evidence. That is the logical fallacy of arguing from incredulity. Whether someone finds something hard to believe has no bearing on whether something is true. Go ask a primitive uncontacted tribe in the jungle whether they find it believable that people fly around the sky in shiny containers of metal.

That wasn't "my argument". That was me making a statement. My "argument" is that the Imperium has never used a fleet that is conglomerated of every sector in a Segmentum, as that would be counter-intuitive to their strategy (that strategy being defending the worlds of the Imperium). The arguments thus far can be summarized as:

Me: A shot from an RPG would destroy a Terminator.

You: Nuh-uh. A shot from a barret couldn't destroy a terminator.

Me: A 50 caliber bullet is weaker than an RPG.

You: No it's not.

Me: Yes it is.

You: Well okay it's not "exactly" as strong as an RPG... but a 50 caliber bullet is definitely stronger than a 9mm bullet!

Me: ...

- - -

Do you really think that two fleets that are made up of, at most, some sectors, is the equivalent of a fleet that is made up of thousands of sectors? Like, seriously?

And again, your attempts to make this personal are cute, but pointless. Try to stay focused on what's actually being said, and less on my some "super secret ulterior motives" I've allegedly got going on.

BlaxicanX wrote:

Iracundus wrote:It doesn't matter what you find "hard to believe". There is no sector called Solar and there is no sector called Tempestus.

Oh, word?

However the use of no less than two segmentum fleet organizational terms instead of just a sector fleet shows it is more significant than just one sector's fleets.

"Bigger than one sector" = "Thousands of sectors"?

No one ever said "thousands of sectors". Go look in the quotes or in previous posts and you will never see the phrase. Do not try to insert your own words and phrasings. However it did say Segmentum fleets. Battlefleet Solar and Battlefleet Tempestus are Segmentum level organizations.

Just because you personally find something hard to believe is not evidence. That is the logical fallacy of arguing from incredulity. Whether someone finds something hard to believe has no bearing on whether something is true. Go ask a primitive uncontacted tribe in the jungle whether they find it believable that people fly around the sky in shiny containers of metal.

That wasn't "my argument". That was me making a statement. My "argument" is that the Imperium has never used a fleet that is conglomerated of every sector in a Segmentum, as that would be counter-intuitive to their strategy (that strategy being defending the worlds of the Imperium). The arguments thus far can be summarized as:

<blah blah>

Do you really think that two fleets that are made up of, at most, some sectors, is the equivalent of a fleet that is made up of thousands of sectors? Like, seriously?

And again, your attempts to make this personal are cute, but pointless. Try to stay focused on what's actually being said, and less on my some "super secret ulterior motives" I've allegedly got going on.

What on Earth are you talking about making it personal? Pointing out your use of a logical fallacy is keeping to the point of a discussion. Faulty logic is faulty logic, no matter who makes it or regarding any kind of point.

Stop making up your own phrases. Nowhere has "thousands of sectors" ever been used. You seem unable to understand the concept of a Segmentum fleet can be other than every single sector's fleet together. Using a Segmentum fleet does NOT equate to necessarily using every single sector's fleet. Just because you think it amounts to "thousands of sectors" does not make it so. Quote a single source where it says "thousands of sectors." You won't be able to because that is a phrase you have made up out of thin air. If you discuss background, keep your own little persona hyperbolicl fan fiction and fantasies out of the official background.

The fleet sent to aid Macragge was "Battlefleet Tempestus" yet it wasn't every single sector's fleet. Saying Battlefleet Solar and Battlefleet Tempestus combined were unable to halt the Tyranids, does not literally have to refer to every single ship in the entire Segmentum, just as in the 13th Black Crusade when it said Battlefleet Solar reinforced the Cadian Gate, it didn't necessarily have to mean every single last ship.

Yet the effective strength of Battlefleet Solar and Battlefleet Tempestus, whatever that may be, has been literally stated as being unable to halt the Tyranids and of being seriously battered in the attempt. That is in explicit black and white from GW. no matter how much Imperial fanboys try to deny it. You tried to claim the Segmentum fleets would walk all over the Tyranids. That claim has been shown to be false as the Tyranid Codex has shown that they tried, and failed and suffered heavy damage in the process. You are now trying to redefine your claim, of claiming Segmentum fleets meaning ships from every single sector. That is shifting the goalposts after your origina claim has already been shown to be untrue.

I believe there may be unforeseen benefits and problems with such an alliance. In time any one surviving treaty might find sides having grown from the comfort and exposure and might grow together. The more comfort with this notion, the more interactions and the more likelihood it will come about.

I'd also like to point out that this might push the plot in other directions. The Ordo Hydra, and any other radical xenos inquisitors might be spurred into taking advantage.

You might also find the Cabal and other emperors plan plot points might start working their way out of the woodwork. I'd also say it might stir chaos up to some more no good.

Considering the Cabal in this makes reminds me of Lester Del Rey's short story "Victory". I wonder what would come of such an alliance, or the other more alien and aggressive Xenos realizing they have as much to lose in space warfare as anyone.

Iracundus wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Iracundus wrote:It doesn't matter what you find "hard to believe". There is no sector called Solar and there is no sector called Tempestus.

Oh, word?

However the use of no less than two segmentum fleet organizational terms instead of just a sector fleet shows it is more significant than just one sector's fleets.

"Bigger than one sector" = "Thousands of sectors"?

No one ever said "thousands of sectors". Go look in the quotes or in previous posts and you will never see the phrase. Do not try to insert your own words and phrasings. However it did say Segmentum fleets. Battlefleet Solar and Battlefleet Tempestus are Segmentum level organizations.

Just because you personally find something hard to believe is not evidence. That is the logical fallacy of arguing from incredulity. Whether someone finds something hard to believe has no bearing on whether something is true. Go ask a primitive uncontacted tribe in the jungle whether they find it believable that people fly around the sky in shiny containers of metal.

That wasn't "my argument". That was me making a statement. My "argument" is that the Imperium has never used a fleet that is conglomerated of every sector in a Segmentum, as that would be counter-intuitive to their strategy (that strategy being defending the worlds of the Imperium). The arguments thus far can be summarized as:

<blah blah>

Do you really think that two fleets that are made up of, at most, some sectors, is the equivalent of a fleet that is made up of thousands of sectors? Like, seriously?

And again, your attempts to make this personal are cute, but pointless. Try to stay focused on what's actually being said, and less on my some "super secret ulterior motives" I've allegedly got going on.

What on Earth are you talking about making it personal? Pointing out your use of a logical fallacy is keeping to the point of a discussion. Faulty logic is faulty logic, no matter who makes it or regarding any kind of point.

Stop making up your own phrases. Nowhere has "thousands of sectors" ever been used. You seem unable to understand the concept of a Segmentum fleet can be other than every single sector's fleet together. Using a Segmentum fleet does NOT equate to necessarily using every single sector's fleet. Just because you think it amounts to "thousands of sectors" does not make it so. Quote a single source where it says "thousands of sectors." You won't be able to because that is a phrase you have made up out of thin air. If you discuss background, keep your own little persona hyperbolicl fan fiction and fantasies out of the official background.

The fleet sent to aid Macragge was "Battlefleet Tempestus" yet it wasn't every single sector's fleet. Saying Battlefleet Solar and Battlefleet Tempestus combined were unable to halt the Tyranids, does not literally have to refer to every single ship in the entire Segmentum, just as in the 13th Black Crusade when it said Battlefleet Solar reinforced the Cadian Gate, it didn't necessarily have to mean every single last ship.

Yet the effective strength of Battlefleet Solar and Battlefleet Tempestus, whatever that may be, has been literally stated as being unable to halt the Tyranids and of being seriously battered in the attempt. That is in explicit black and white from GW. no matter how much Imperial fanboys try to deny it. You tried to claim the Segmentum fleets would walk all over the Tyranids. That claim has been shown to be false as the Tyranid Codex has shown that they tried, and failed and suffered heavy damage in the process. You are now trying to redefine your claim, of claiming Segmentum fleets meaning ships from every single sector. That is shifting the goalposts after your origina claim has already been shown to be untrue.

So then you admit that a fleet made up of all the fleets in an entire segmentum formed together into one fleet would destroy Hive Fleet Leviathan.

Well alrighty then.

BlaxicanX wrote:
So then you admit that a fleet made up of all the fleets in an entire segmentum formed together into one fleet would destroy Hive Fleet Leviathan.

Well alrighty then.

You need to practice your critical reading. No such admission was made, and you will be unable to quote any.

Saying the effective strength of 2 Segmentum fleets was unable to stop Leviathan, doesn't say anything about your hypothetical scenario. The two things are apples and oranges, and you are trying to link a discussion about one to the other.

The only thing that can be said about your scenario is that it is unknown because there is no such example of such occurring stated by GW. Hence the only thing that players can say is that it is an unknown, just like with all the other hypothetical scenarios of Emperor vs. Chaos Gods, Primarch vs. C'tan, etc...

If zoats were still alive the tyranids could ally. ocassionly tyranids end up fighting with chaos, but only the genestealers. my share is that since destroying necrons would not gain the tyranids anything, they could form a pact with them.
cept this takes the point out of tyranids, for they are the loners of 40k. Even chaos daemons have the chaos marines.
It is also bad that the hive mind is arrogant and aggresive and any allys would be betyrayed, as (IIRC) HF collosus showed us that.

Iracundus wrote:

Saying the effective strength of 2 Segmentum fleets was unable to stop Leviathan, doesn't say anything about your hypothetical scenario.

Yeah, we've covered that already. lol

And no, I'm pretty confident that a segmentum sized fleet would wipe the floor with Leviathan. After all, it's being slowed down by a vastly inferior force. Tyranids suck. lol

BlaxicanX wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

Saying the effective strength of 2 Segmentum fleets was unable to stop Leviathan, doesn't say anything about your hypothetical scenario.

Yeah, we've covered that already. lol

No we haven't because it is irrelevant to the original topic.

And no, I'm pretty confident that a segmentum sized fleet would wipe the floor with Leviathan. After all, it's being slowed down by a vastly inferior force. Tyranids suck. lol

No proof given. Your opinion without proof is irrelevant and meaningless in a debate. Argument purely from opinion is of no weight and is also a flawed method of debate.

A person can be absolutely confident the world is flat. He would also be completely wrong.

Iracundus wrote:No we haven't because it is irrelevant to the original topic.

I don't think you know what the original topic is. lol

No proof given. Your opinion without proof is irrelevant and meaningless in a debate.

The topic of this thread is in itself speculation. It's literally a "what-if" thread. So obviously, we're supposed to speculate. Calm down, child. This is the internet.