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BlaxicanX wrote:

Iracundus wrote:No we haven't because it is irrelevant to the original topic.

I don't think you know what the original topic is. lol

Pointless attempt at ad hominem.

In case you haven't noticed, ending your sentences with "lol" doesn't add anything to your point except to make it look more juvenile.

The original point was about xenos alliance and whether it would make any difference. Your now already disproven point was to claim the Imperium could handily wipe out Leviathan.

No proof given. Your opinion without proof is irrelevant and meaningless in a debate.

The topic of this thread is in itself speculation. It's literally a "what-if" thread. So obviously, we're supposed to speculate. Calm down, child. This is the internet.

Statements still need to be backed up with evidence as they do in any debate. If you speculate and have no evidence, then it is just unfounded opinion and of no value or weight whatsoever in convincing anyone else.

People can speculate about the world being flat or the world being made of cheese. All of which is pointless and irrelevant noise unless there is actual evidence to make such points worth discussing.

Iracundus wrote:
In case you haven't noticed, ending your sentences with "lol" doesn't add anything to your point except to make it look more juvenile.

Could you tell me what this has to do with the original topic

Iracundus wrote:
No proof given. Your opinion without proof is irrelevant and meaningless in a debate. Argument purely from opinion is of no weight and is also a flawed method of debate.

No one's opinion is invalid considering this forum is speculation. This is not a debate. This is just people speculating what would happen in this situation, and does not require being critical to every single statement.
Not everything needs proof in this forum. People are allowed to speculate all they want. And speculation, as definitiuon the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.Therefore,
speculation does not need proof. Tell m, what proof does

Iracundus wrote:
In case you haven't noticed, ending your sentences with "lol" doesn't add anything to your point except to make it look more juvenile.

have.

BaneGuard wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
In case you haven't noticed, ending your sentences with "lol" doesn't add anything to your point except to make it look more juvenile.

Could you tell me what this has to do with the original topic

That particular sentence doesn't have much relevance except to highlight to ridiculousness of "lol" at the end of every sentence. BlaxicanX's claim of the Imperium's ability to single handedly defeat Leviathan has already been disproven, and it has only recently been about his attempts to redefine the point to mean a hypothetical scenario that has insufficient evidence to make any conclusion.

On the original topic of alliance, if technology transfer is excluded, then aside from information, the Imperium has little to gain. Given how the Imperium has trouble dealing with threats like the Tyranids already, the Imperium would need to gain information that allowed it to pull some unorthodox strategy, as the Imperial diversion of Leviathan was tacit admission that brute force was insufficient.

You are saying that it has been proven wrong, then you say that we don't know if the Imperium single-handed would lose or succeed.
I would like to thank you for getting back on topic and I agree that without technology transfer the tau eldar and IOM would not make much of an impact without means other than brute force.

BaneGuard wrote:You are saying that it has been proven wrong, then you say that we don't know if the Imperium single-handed would lose or succeed.

The point proven wrong is the claim that the Imperium's Segmentum fleets were single handedly capable of easily handling Leviathan. The quotes from the Tyranid Codex have shown that not to be the case, as the fleets that did engage were heavily battered.

What then happened, was the redefining of the claim to mean a hypothetical scenario that has no chance of occurring instead of the actual effective strengths of the Segmentum fleets (which as above has been shown to be insufficient). This hypothetical scenario is what lacks evidence to conclude anything.

Iracundus wrote:
BlaxicanX's claim of the Imperium's ability to single handedly defeat Leviathan has already been disproven

You said the redefined hypothetical situation was disproven, not the Segmentum fleet theory was disproven. I won't disagree that the hypothetical situation was redefined, or possibly that the definition of a segmentum some people had wrong.

BaneGuard wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
BlaxicanX's claim of the Imperium's ability to single handedly defeat Leviathan has already been disproven

You said the redefined hypothetical situation was disproven, not the Segmentum fleet theory was disproven.

Read again:

BlaxicanX's claim of the Imperium's ability to single handedly defeat Leviathan has already been disproven, and it has only recently been about his attempts to redefine the point to mean a hypothetical scenario that has insufficient evidence to make any conclusion.

I did not say the redefined situation was disproven. The original claim was disproven. Earlier, I said the redefined hypothetical situation was not relevant to the original claim and also that insufficient evidence exists with which to make any conclusion.

The above quote clearly states that the IOM of man cannot single handedly defeat hive fleet leviathan, you then contradict this claim in the next sentence.

Iracundus wrote:
BlaxicanX's claim of the Imperium's ability to single handedly defeat Leviathan has already been disproven

BaneGuard wrote:The above quote clearly states that the IOM of man cannot single handedly defeat hive fleet leviathan, you then contradict this claim in the next sentence.

Iracundus wrote:
BlaxicanX's claim of the Imperium's ability to single handedly defeat Leviathan has already been disproven

And as I had written, it was referring to his original claim. Read what was written. Subsequent attempts to shift the goalposts into another hypothetical scenario after the first claim was disproven are not relevant.

It is not relevant in the same way that someone trying to make a hypothetical scenario of humans having stronger muscles and the air being denser is irrelevant after the inability of humans to fly using their arms has been disproven. The inability of humans to fly unaided is still disproven despite the possibility of coming up with hypothetical scenarios like that, because those is not the actual reality.

The posts on this page...

You are saying that the Imperium of man cannot single handedly defeat hive fleet leviathan, which was the redefined hypothetical situation.
You have also said above that

Iracundus wrote:
I did not say the redefined situation was disproven.

BaneGuard wrote:You are saying that the Imperium of man cannot single handedly defeat hive fleet leviathan, which was the redefined hypothetical situation.

Wrong. Please read more carefully. That was the original claim. When this was disproven, the redefined hypothetical was using a hypothetical rather than actual Segmentum fleet strength.

BlaxicanX:
Imagine if a segmentum sized fleet attacked the hive fleets? That would be the end of the Tyranids.

That was the original situation which was what this entire predicament was over. Not that the imperium of man cannot defeat the tyranid hive fleet.
Everything that I have put down is what was written, quoted exactly. It is written out in black and white.

BaneGuard wrote:

BlaxicanX:
Imagine if a segmentum sized fleet attacked the hive fleets? That would be the end of the Tyranids.

That was the original situation which was what this entire predicament was over.

And that has been disproven. Redefining Segmentum fleets to be of a hypothetical strength instead of their actual strength is the redefined scenario and that is the scenario that cannot be concluded due to lack of hard evidence. If the Tyranids could be single handedly defeated as easily as claimed, they already would have been. The inability of 2 Segmentum sized fleets (if the Imperium could have mustered more Segmentum fleets they would have) to do so shows the inability of the Imperium to do so. Again we are talking about actual situation not some idealized hypothetical.

Iracundus you got a new fan!

So what you are saying is that there is no conclusion to what would happen if the majority of ships of a segmentum grouped together, But the Imperium would lose against the hive fleet because

Iracundus wrote:
BlaxicanX's claim of the Imperium's ability to single handedly defeat Leviathan has already been disproven

Iracundus wrote:And that has been disproven. Redefining Segmentum fleets to be of a hypothetical strength instead of their actual strength is the redefined scenario

Except it's not redefined because the definition of "segmentum fleet" was always "a fleet made comprised of every fleet in a segmentum". I wasn't even aware of BFG's nonsensical definition until you brought it up.

BlaxicanX wrote:

Iracundus wrote:And that has been disproven. Redefining Segmentum fleets to be of a hypothetical strength instead of their actual strength is the redefined scenario

Except it's not redefined because the definition of "segmentum fleet" was always "a fleet made comprised of every fleet in a segmentum". I wasn't even aware of BFG's nonsensical definition until you brought it up.

Where does it say so? You have yet to be able to provide one shred of evidence for this hypothetical definition you keep making up.

BFG's definition is canonical, produced by GW, and hence is not nonsensical. It is as canonical as it gets especially when it comes to space warfare. It is not up to you to determine what is or is not nonsensical as you are not GW and do not own the IP. Your claims of something being nonsensical based purely on your own personal opinion again does not matter one iota because there is no evidence behind it.

Trying to repeatedly claim Segmentum Battlefleet can only refer to every single ship of the Segmentum together is as ludicrous as trying to claim that the statement "The U.S. Army was in Iraq" to mean every single man and piece of equipment in the Army had to be in Iraq.

BaneGuard wrote:So what you are saying is that there is no conclusion to what would happen if the majority of ships of a segmentum grouped together,

Correct. The only conclusion is that the outcome is unknown but that this hypothetical scenario is not something that would ever occur.

If you in your own circumlocutory way are trying to expand the topic to be one of the total Imperium to that of the Tyranids, then even then the odds do not look good as even the most optimistic unrealistic estimate of the Imperium's total population (including non-combatants) is still vastly outnumbered by the only estimate given by GW of the Tyranid population.

If anything, it wouldn't very much matter. Very well armed Rogue Trader ships have been described as completely inefficient against military-grade ships. The Maiden (i think) in Soul Hunter was constantly upgraded by his owner with better weaponry, and it stood less than a minute against the barrage of a SM ship, which are already not that powerful in firepower (in comparison to Imperial ships).

Another example, Battlefleet Tempestus (described as 72 ships), while performing the scouring of the Perdus planets, the admiral reckoned that even after taking 2 dozens hive-ships down, for no loss on his side over a period of a few months, he hadn't actually done anything to Leviathan Basically the only advantage the Imperial ships have, is their ordnance range. When they fight to stand their ground, they lose. Nids bio-ships are very quick in close range, and will rip a light cruiser in half in one bite. I doubt most non-Imperial Navy grade ships would have the type of weaponry necessary to participate in a cordon like the one at Perdus Skilla.

People also forget that 3 Chapters and a decent Battlefleet got wiped before the nids got to Maccrage.

Iracundus wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Iracundus wrote:And that has been disproven. Redefining Segmentum fleets to be of a hypothetical strength instead of their actual strength is the redefined scenario

Except it's not redefined because the definition of "segmentum fleet" was always "a fleet made comprised of every fleet in a segmentum". I wasn't even aware of BFG's nonsensical definition until you brought it up.

Where does it say so? You have yet to be able to provide one shred of evidence for this hypothetical definition you keep making up.

That's because there is no "actual" definition for a "fleet that is made up of every fleet from every sector in a segmentum", ergo I have no choice but to define it as best as I can. Do you have a better phrase that would define "a fleet that is made up of every fleet from every sector in a segmentum"?

If you in your own circumlocutory way are trying to expand the topic to be one of the total Imperium to that of the Tyranids, then even then the odds do not look good as even the most optimistic unrealistic estimate of the Imperium's total population (including non-combatants) is still vastly outnumbered by the only estimate given by GW of the Tyranid population.

The Imperium are always "vastly outnumbered" by Tyranids in every engagement. They were vastly outnumbered at Macragge, the Eldar were vastly outnumbered at Iyanden, Maugan Ra was vastly outnumbered on Stormvlad, the Tau were vastly outnumbered against Gorgon, etc etc. I don't really see how the Tyranids having more people is, by itself, much of a factor.

According to Stannis Baratheon, it's the decisive factor 9 times out of 10


And it is if the damage caused by the Battlefleet doesn't actually slow down the hive-fleet, which is what is said to have happened Multiple months of successful engagements by Battlefleet Tempestus didn't slow down the Nids.

Because "Battlefleet Tempestus" can put out the same damage as a fleet that is made up of every Navy fleet in an entire segmentum.

=|

Actually, possibly. The Hammer of Righteousness was an incredibly powerful ship (even tho as described as past its prime), and there was 71 other ship in defense of 5 planets. Even with months of planning ahead of time, and keeping a millions of kilometer wide cordon, they couldn't do anything visible to the hive fleet.

If they did bring the entire fleet of the all the fleets of the Segmentum, and engage through hubris, then I think it would be perfectly fine by the Nids.
If they bring the entire Segmentum over and run the cordon... well they might start seeing a few dents in the hive-fleet, but they are still running away and abandoning their planets.
If they bring the entire Fleets and win, well... what losses will they have suffered, while we don't even know if Leviathan is entirely in the Galaxy yet.

If you say so, lol...

IMO i think the only way That the tau eldar and IoM could ever fight along side each other was if they were faced with a greater threat then any thing they have faced before. For example something like a warp mutated Hive fleet or a full blown Chaos demon army heading their way. Even if they did band together to push them back the alliance would be kinda like what the USA has with RU we are not enemy's, but we are not ally's more like neighbors that hate each other but need to pretend to like each other. i like the idea behind races banding together but like someone said it would not last.

Well.. this thread kind of de-railed from its original intent rather quickly...

Usually this is the part were i'd ask a moderator to either collapse or lock it but since everyone seems to be having....fun? i guess..

lol. I saw a majority of it would not make a difference and a few for the peace with xenos succeeding.

Doesn't the IoM and Tau, and Eldar have a unique understanding of one another?

They are not friends but not really high on each others kill lists?

Different factions of each race are different. SOme eldar craftworlds hate the imperium more than any other race. Tau usually try and make alliances with everyone they can before trying to destroy them.
Some factions of the IOM try and avoid killing eldar and tau to work beside them, but others try and hate these xenos more thta other factions of the IOM.