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So i'm slowly easing a friend of mine into the Fluff world of 40K along with the Game itself (and attendant video games as well). And he had an interesting remark for me once I started dishing out the Codices and a bit of the lore. It all kind of went down as:


Him: So everyone essentially hates everyone else?
Me: Yep. Pretty much. It maintains the whole Grimdark atmosphere and also the theme of Warhammer..you know, the War part.
Him: So its one giant massive contrivance?
Me: More or less. I mean, it would probably be one of those "end of Warhammer" scenarios if the Imperium started to make peace with the more civilized Xenos races.

Him: would it? Would it really?

I thought on that a bit and I started to see his point.

So i'll turn it over to the collective wisdom/madness of DakkaDakka. I'll use his scenario:

Let's say that the Imperium did in fact sign a kind of extended peace with the Eldar and the Tau. Not "We're all friends now" but something akin to the real world where competing states have competing interests but have decided it just isn't worth the time/money/effort to go bash their neighbors skulls in.

Would anything really change?

The Alien-esque inspired Insectoid Race is still coming in via Ultima Segmentum non-stop.

The Terminator-esque Tomb Kings in Spppaacceee are still going to try and kill you all.

The Eye of Terror doens't magically close up. And Daemons are still feeding on your sins.

The Orks.....well.. need i say more?


I think the point he was trying to get across is: "They are still *@#$&#!. Except now they are sitting all in the same boat "

Thoughts?

Well, they signed a pact with a dying race and a Empire that has maybe around 100 worlds.

You are going to see feth all come from that pact.

Anyone else is impossible to sign a pact with, besides for maybe a few 'Cron worlds.

I can't see that happening. Even if it did, the size of the Imperium means that even letting all thier forces know that they are at peace now would be almost impossible, and one accident later and you are back to War again...

Maybe as a ploy though...however briefly...

Chowderhead wrote:Well, they signed a pact with a dying race and a Empire that has maybe around 100 worlds.

You are going to see feth all come from that pact.

Anyone else is impossible to sign a pact with, besides for maybe a few 'Cron worlds.

That is kind of the point isn't it? Nothing will come of it.

I mean, in realistic terms - maybe the Ultramarines and the Tau have an easier time of dealing with the Hive Fleets that come in.

And that's pretty much all i could think of.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihadnik wrote:I can't see that happening. Even if it did, the size of the Imperium means that even letting all thier forces know that they are at peace now would be almost impossible, and one accident later and you are back to War again...

Maybe as a ploy though...however briefly...

Oh i'm not asking if it were possible - it really isn't (going back to the Contrivance of keeping all the factions at war with each other)


I think his point is, even if peace were to occur, it would be absolutely pointless. The "rational" races are surrounded by a sea of Xenos life forms that still want to eat them, claim their souls, recycle them, crush them. etc. etc.

Whether they all go down together or apart - it really doesn't matter.

It could make a difference.

Although the Eldar are outnumbered, they are still knowledgeable and know much about the various threats, artifacts, and lost places of the galaxy. Plus they have use of the Webway.

We see the results of Imperial and Eldar cooperation during the Gothic War as told in the BFG rulebook. The Eldar showed the Imperium specific paths through the Webway, allowing Imperial fleets to outmaneuver Abaddon's main fleet.

I think it might help a little. A lot of IoM plans go astray with the eldar get their hands on things. If they stopped that, things would go a lot better in a lot of places.

It wouldn't save them though. Nothing can save them.

It's not actually that contrived. I find it very likely that every species will be primarily looking out for its own interests. If that means they have to fight alongside another species, they will do so if possible and expedient. If that species has technology that they're not sharing, or they refused to help out in a battle or some such that was against their own interests, why would you try to stay buddies with them? Humans are quite keen on their own country being superior to others. That would apply moreso on a species-wide scale.

40K already isn't really all that grimdark, from a "humanity is on the brink of extinction" perspective. The most grimdark thing about it is human stupidity, as the Imperium actually has the military strength to annihilate pretty much any other faction in a one on one fight. Assuming that if humanity is smart enough to ally with xenos races (and by extension those xenos are smart enough to honor that alliance) then they're smart enough to to improve on other aspects of their gameplan, Imperium manpower/military might + Eldar foresight and immaculate planning would very feasibly allow the two forces to wipe out almost every other faction; or at the least bring the Galaxy back to pre-heresey levels.

A single SM chapter was able to devastate Commoragh, for example. The Tyranids, for all their "bad assery", failed to take out a single star system and its chapter. Imagine if an entire segmentum fleet were to travel the webway via Eldar guidance and attack the Dark Eldar stronghold? That'd be the end of the Dark Eldar. Imagine if a segmentum sized fleet attacked the hive fleets? That would be the end of the Tyranids.

And so on and so fourth.

BlaxicanX wrote:Imagine if a segmentum sized fleet attacked the hive fleets? That would be the end of the Tyranids.

Actually that wouldn't be the end of the Tyranids but would be the end of the segmentum fleet. In the 4th edition Tyranid Codex, it was said explicitly that the Segmentum Solar fleet was incapable of directly defeating Hive Fleet Leviathan. The whole fact that the Imperium was forced to use more subtle means (diverting the Tyranids onto the Orks) shows the Imperium was unable to overwhelm through its usual brute force approach.

Gryphonne IV, the forgeworld with the "finest defences of any world in the southern galaxy" (5th edition Tyranid Codex p. 28), was overwhelmed by the Tyranids. The Tyranids are the biggest threat to the factions of the Milky Way galaxy. Sure, not every hive fleet or splinter fleet is successful, but that is why it is easy to be lulled into a false sense of security. The successful defending of high profile worlds catch human reader attention but less is paid to the quiet succumbing of low priority agri-worlds or isolated worlds in the Imperium. So long as the Tyranids make a net gain, they still accomplish their goals, and the one thing they excel in above all others is attrition warfare.

It is not like the Imperium can even remotely enforce peace/non-violence among the different factions that make up this very same Imperium. The IoM doesn't even need anyone else to keep up the theme of "there is only war".

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:The Terminator-esque Tomb Kings in Spppaacceee are still going to try and kill you all.

Necrons won't necessarily kill you, it depends who turned up. Anrakyr the Traveller for instance would just ask you to scram to another planet that wasn't a tomb world. Granted if you refused then he would kill you, but he wouldn't just say "I have landed, and now I shall kill the indigenous"

IHateNids wrote:

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:The Terminator-esque Tomb Kings in Spppaacceee are still going to try and kill you all.

Necrons won't necessarily kill you, it depends who turned up. Anrakyr the Traveller for instance would just ask you to scram to another planet that wasn't a tomb world. Granted if you refused then he would kill you, but he wouldn't just say "I have landed, and now I shall kill the indigenous"

The biggest problem with that scenario (and one such is given in the Necron Codex, which copies the scenario of Eldar demands in Planetstrike) is the unreasonable nature of the demand. Demanding the complete evacuation of a hive world with its many hundreds of billions in one month is a task that is impossible to meet even if the humans wanted to. The only purpose it serves is to provide an excuse then for the subsequent attack.

BlaxicanX wrote:A single SM chapter was able to devastate Commoragh, for example.

The SM didn't even come close to it nor was this their mission.
Their mission was to liberate a cruiser captured by the DE. So they entered Commoragh (with the help of Asdrubael Vect. Without him, the SM would never been able to come to Commoragh in the first place). They set up a perimeter in Commoragh, maybe a few square miles (Commoragh is bigger then any planet in realspace btw). They were able to keep up the perimeter for an hour or so, losing a big part of their chapter during that time. And that was possible only because Asdrubael Vect assassinated the DE leaders and attacked the DE Defenders loyal to their leaders from behind. Without him, the SM chapter wouldn't have lasted five minutes in Commoragh.

BlaxicanX wrote:Imagine if an entire segmentum fleet were to travel the webway via Eldar guidance and attack the Dark Eldar stronghold? That'd be the end of the Dark Eldar.

- Commoragh is not the only DE city in the webway. The most important one by a long shot, that's true. But not the only one. So the end of Commoragh would not mean the end of the DE.
- The Eldar would never lead an imperial fleet to their dark cousins. That is as probable as the Eldar of one world ship giving the Imperium the information how to destroy another world ship. In the end, they are both Eldar.
- In the same speculative way you could say that when every DE in Commoragh attacks Earth via webway, they would obliterate Earth within days and retreat to the webway before the rest of the imperium could react.

To the OP:
If the IoM, Eldar & Tau would sign a peace treaty, it wouldn't change much. Only if they would share their technology and the IoM would give up their antipathy to xeno tech, then this treaty would have an impact on a galactic level.

I think that if an alliance was agreed to and it was honoured by everyone, then they would stand a chance. The imperium, tau and eldar could work together to scour the non-active tomb worlds, therefore reducing numbers. There is also the theory that if all of the eldar die, then slaneesh dies, massively decreasing the strength of the warp. The tau, imperium and eldar together would eb abel to do more than just the imperium alone.

The only reason I see the imperium not being able to defeat the tyranid hive fleets is because the tyrandis absorb all of the imperials that die (a huge quantity) and are forever replenishing. The eldar and tau would take less casualties then kills, meaning that they coudl probably team up to defeat leviathan.

The orks I cannot see any end to their threat there.

Thought the warp can't be stopped (by any method I know), the chaos marines are a huge threat that can be destroyed, takign away from the strength of chaos.

Alliances between the Empires happen all the time -but they are short lived and regional and usually done by both parties to achieve specfic aims.

Plus there are so many powers - Chaos formost - that will actively work to stop unification - either via direct action or more likely behind the scences.

Put it another way - how easy is it unite the varied nations of Earth in any cause or objective - and thats all the same speciies...............

No lasting alliances can work in 40k, largely because so many different factions within each race have widly different views. Even if the Ulthwe Eldar want to help the Cadians when chaos is begin to grow, it wont stop the Biel Tan wanting to reforge their empire, which obviously would require some conflict with the Imperium.

IRL its near impossible to get all the countries of a single planet to cooperate and work towards a unified goal, why would it be any different between completely different species on completely different planets that span an entire galaxy?

Gorechild wrote:No lasting alliances can work in 40k, largely because so many different factions within each race have widly different views. Even if the Ulthwe Eldar want to help the Cadians when chaos is begin to grow, it wont stop the Biel Tan wanting to reforge their empire, which obviously would require some conflict with the Imperium.

All the factions in 40K are to some extent decentralized, especially the Imperium. Also, most factions have little understanding of other factions' culture and motives, beyond the superficial and stereotypical. Most of the Imperium for example cannot tell the difference between Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar (or doesn't care that there is a difference), and thus the actions of some end up casting a bad reputation on the whole.

Perhaps i wasn't clear about what was being asked.


The question wasn't "is an alliance possible?" - We already know the answer to that - in fact many of you have repeated it.

The question my friend proposed was "Would it even matter?"

I'll double check with him, but it feels more like an implicit criticism of the Tau and the Eldar in term of relevance to the Imperium. To paraphrase from the conversation:

"If i stopped the Hive Fleets from coming or closed the Eye of Terror or made the Orks disappear etc. There would be an appreciable difference to the state of the IoM.

You could argue that they have in fact turned a corner, or at least have a lot of pressure taken off of them. (I argued that the closing of the Eye of Terror would probably end Warhammer).

But - even if i were to put the Eldar or Tau on the same Side of the IoM - it wouldn't matter at all. They are still screwed."

That's why the Thread is Named "Peace with the Xenos: Or a whole lot of nothing"

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Perhaps i wasn't clear about what was being asked.


The question wasn't "is an alliance possible?" - We already know the answer to that - in fact many of you have repeated it.

The question my friend proposed was "Would it even matter?"

I'll double check with him, but it feels more like an implicit criticism of the Tau and the Eldar in term of relevance to the Imperium. To paraphrase from the conversation:

"If i stopped the Hive Fleets from coming or closed the Eye of Terror or made the Orks disappear etc. There would be an appreciable difference to the state of the IoM.

You could argue that they have in fact turned a corner, or at least have a lot of pressure taken off of them. (I argued that the closing of the Eye of Terror would probably end Warhammer).

But - even if i were to put the Eldar or Tau on the same Side of the IoM - it wouldn't matter at all. They are still screwed."

That's why the Thread is Named "Peace with the Xenos: Or a whole lot of nothing"

As already stated, the details of your hypothetical situation is still vague. Depending on whether one talks about local alliance or total alliance, there may or may not be a difference. However it is unfair to set the bar of "making a difference" as high as the complete annihilation or removal of an entire problem or other faction. All the factions in 40K are huge and capable of making an impact on the galaxy either through numbers, resources, technology, psychic power, or knowledge. "Making a difference" should be qualified to be more reasonable, such as a stabilization of the eroding situation of the Imperium for example, which may not necessarily involve the utter defeat of any one faction.

The definition of "alliance" also needs to be further clarified. Is it just a simple non-aggression pact? Or actual cooperation and sharing of information and resources without restriction? The former is likely to at best ameliorate the situation. The second could potentially lead to differences if carried out in good faith and maintained for long enough.

Iracundus wrote:As already stated, the details of your hypothetical situation is still vague. Depending on whether one talks about local alliance or total alliance, there may or may not be a difference.

I believe he defined the format akin to international relations as it exists in the real world. Recognizing both the cultural assumptions implicit within the framework of each group and acknowledging that the generalized "superiority compelx" that afflicts each species wouldn't go away over night he posited the following:

1.) Recognized Right of Existence - An End to "Kill the Xenos/Force them into the Greater Good,etc."

2.) Recognition of Territorial Boundaries/Pathways - Pathway given due to the movements of the Eldar. He didn't comment on whether or not Maiden Worlds were now off limits.

3.) Formal Diplomatic Relations - Tau and Terra exchange ambassadors, Let a Council of Farssers cough up a third.

4.) Limited Cooperative Military Action against Hostile Xenos species - To be decided via negotiations on a case by case basis.

He did explicitly Deny Technology Transfers.

However it is unfair to set the bar of "making a difference" as high as the complete annihilation or removal of an entire problem or other faction. All the factions in 40K are huge and capable of making an impact on the galaxy either through numbers, resources, technology, psychic power, or knowledge. "Making a difference" should be qualified to be more reasonable, such as a stabilization of the eroding situation of the Imperium for example, which may not necessarily involve the utter defeat of any one faction.

I believe the "alliance brokering" on his part was a show of disdain - as in:

"If I removed Faction XYZ from the mix, the overall of status of the Imperium would increase immensely.

But its different with the Eldar or Tau. (exact quote coming up): "The Tau seem like a very localized matter."

Forget about just removing them from the equation entirely. (Which i believe he is interpreting as "losing a negative"). Even if they were placed in a more reasonable state of affairs (the above - which i take is more than just losing a negative, but actually gaining something) - there doesn't seem much room in terms of overall appreciable gains."

Its a matter of imminent threat. Although it is fair to point out that neither the Tau or the Eldar were designed to be a great imminent threat along the manner that the Tyranids or Necrons, or Chaos would be - with special attention given to Chaos as it holds a very specific point in the narrative of Warhammer 40K - ie: the End of Chaos is the End of Warhammer.

If you exclude technology transfer, then the gains are very limited.

For the Eldar, if you count technology transfer as including any granting of Webway use, then the Eldar are pretty much limited to giving of information and limited local military cooperation. Any of the artifacts the Eldar hold in reserve wouldn't be an option if full cooperation and technlogy sharing is excluded.

For the Tau, they are a regional power. The Imperium might gain a buffer state, but aside from that, there is little to be gained if technology transfer is again ruled out. While this would ameliorate the local situation (since the 4th edition SM Codex had the Imperium stripping the border with the Tau in order to reinforce the Cadian Gate), it probably would not change the overall state of the Imperium very much. For the Tau, they might be able to relax their guard in one direction, but the terms of such an agreement would also stifle future growth.

Iracundus wrote:If you exclude technology transfer, then the gains are very limited.

For the Eldar, if you count technology transfer as including any granting of Webway use, then the Eldar are pretty much limited to giving of information and limited local military cooperation. Any of the artifacts the Eldar hold in reserve wouldn't be an option if full cooperation and technlogy sharing is excluded.

Hrmm. This i can't answer - going to have to wait till the weekend when i see him again.

He ruled out tech transfers for the same reason why when formal diplomatic relations were open up between very different cultures in the age of colonialism - very few if any went rushing to the other culture intent on learning the industry/natural philosophy of that society.

That took time and a lot of cultural adjustment.

He drew a parallel between that and the attitudes of the Tau, Mankind, and the Eldar to each other.

Since its also not "Happy Super Friends" but something more realistic in terms of relationships between states, no one is inclined to surrender the good stuff to their allies either - in the same way that the US isn't in the habit of handing out nuclear weapons to its allies.

I actually think the USA did hand nukes to their allies. Then there was that treaty that said you can't do that anymore. In a more 40k example. The tau are in the habit of handing out nukes. You don't even have to ask, they just do it. Then if you say stop that, they still do it.

BlaxicanX wrote:40K already isn't really all that grimdark, from a "humanity is on the brink of extinction" perspective. The most grimdark thing about it is human stupidity, as the Imperium actually has the military strength to annihilate pretty much any other faction in a one on one fight. Assuming that if humanity is smart enough to ally with xenos races (and by extension those xenos are smart enough to honor that alliance) then they're smart enough to to improve on other aspects of their gameplan, Imperium manpower/military might + Eldar foresight and immaculate planning would very feasibly allow the two forces to wipe out almost every other faction; or at the least bring the Galaxy back to pre-heresey levels.

A single SM chapter was able to devastate Commoragh, for example. The Tyranids, for all their "bad assery", failed to take out a single star system and its chapter. Imagine if an entire segmentum fleet were to travel the webway via Eldar guidance and attack the Dark Eldar stronghold? That'd be the end of the Dark Eldar. Imagine if a segmentum sized fleet attacked the hive fleets? That would be the end of the Tyranids.

And so on and so fourth.

That sir is an excelent point. When you put it that way it would be VERY hard to stop a joint Eldar IoM force as they would be nearly unstoppable, know were you are coming from be able to react to werever ythey need to be and more.

Iracundus wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Actually that wouldn't be the end of the Tyranids but would be the end of the segmentum fleet. In the 4th edition Tyranid Codex, it was said explicitly that the Segmentum Solar fleet was incapable of directly defeating Hive Fleet Leviathan.

4th Ed Tyranid Codex isn't canon anymore, and besides, Codexes are written in an in-universe perspective. Random statements like that have no bearing without context.

Grimmzahn wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:A single SM chapter was able to devastate Commoragh, for example.

The SM didn't even come close to it nor was this their mission.
Their mission was to liberate a cruiser captured by the DE. So they entered Commoragh (with the help of Asdrubael Vect. Without him, the SM would never been able to come to Commoragh in the first place).

This proves my point. Yes, "they wouldn't have been able to get in there in the first place". Hence, they could probably do it with the Eldar's help, though.

They kind of are at peace with the Eldar and Tau. One thing to remember with the Imperium and Eldar is that they are not that united. One part of the Imperium may instigate a war against the Tau like the church or an individual SM chapter. Also one craftworld like the Biel-Tan may just go around slaughtering human civilians. There's hundreds of ways a war can start and they usually do.

I think that orks and necrons could take out Nids if they teamed up.

Orks beat the small nid gribblys to pulp, while the crons turn the big(ger) ones into craters and subatomic mists.

The only problem is the continuation. Orks and nids will try and out-spawn one another, while necrons just recycle themselves. The battle would take a while

It may actually be possible to kill the orks IF technology was mixed and an-anti ork virus was made. Between the three races that would be possible. Just distributing it would be an issue.

BlaxicanX wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Actually that wouldn't be the end of the Tyranids but would be the end of the segmentum fleet. In the 4th edition Tyranid Codex, it was said explicitly that the Segmentum Solar fleet was incapable of directly defeating Hive Fleet Leviathan.

4th Ed Tyranid Codex isn't canon anymore, and besides, Codexes are written in an in-universe perspective. Random statements like that have no bearing without context.

If it is not specifically retconned it is still canon. Just because something isn't mentioned recently doesn't mean it suddenly never happened. The 2nd Battle for Armageddon hasn't been retold recently, so does that mean suddenly everything ever written about it is not true? No.

4th Edition Codices are also not written in an in-universe perspective and the relevant passage was explicitly written in an out of universe omniscient narrator perspective. It was not the opinion of any Imperium person or Inquisitor, but a statement about the state of things in the universe. Hence the statement stands. Segmentum Solar naval forces were not up to a brute force confrontation with Leviathan.

Iracundus wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Actually that wouldn't be the end of the Tyranids but would be the end of the segmentum fleet. In the 4th edition Tyranid Codex, it was said explicitly that the Segmentum Solar fleet was incapable of directly defeating Hive Fleet Leviathan.

4th Ed Tyranid Codex isn't canon anymore, and besides, Codexes are written in an in-universe perspective. Random statements like that have no bearing without context.

If it is not specifically retconned it is still canon.

Can you provide a source for this?

4th Edition Codices are also not written in an in-universe perspective and the relevant passage was explicitly written in an out of universe omniscient narrator perspective.

Could you quote the passage and provide the page number, please?