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No, Las Cannons do not need to be AP1 simply because it would be suicide to play armor against them. It's bad enough the Imperials can field a health plethora of them.


What does need some lovin' is the humble Heavy Bolter. Ever since cover became a universal +4, the poor bugger has never seen the light of day.

I run barebones razorbacks. Never know when a HB is gonna kill a monster, I always say.

KplKeegan wrote:What does need some lovin' is the humble Heavy Bolter. Ever since cover became a universal +4, the poor bugger has never seen the light of day.

This is a good post. I think heavy bolters are really cool models, and I'd love to use them with my IG/Marines, but they're just too weak.

Deadshot wrote:Personally? 2 Devastators, a TL one on a razor and another one on stormraven. And 2 more on a predator

However I never take Devs, or Predator due to carriage and points, and normally run the SR with an AC. So really 1.

I can pack about 15 lascannons into a 1500 list for standard space marines. (Thank you sternguard for being so awesome)

Yeah, as far as I'm aware, an AP1 Lascannon would not just take the piss, it'd practically be a a turn 1 quit for mech armies. And Long Fangs... Dear god no...

Deadshot wrote:What about making it Lance? It is a big laser for cutting through armour.

Lance was there to make differentiate Eldar weapons from Imperial Weapons. Eldar used to have Lascannons, identical to Imperial versions. They got Lances after the 2E to 3E switch to make them different. Giving lance to lascannons would greatly defeat that.

Brother SRM wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:What does need some lovin' is the humble Heavy Bolter. Ever since cover became a universal +4, the poor bugger has never seen the light of day.

This is a good post. I think heavy bolters are really cool models, and I'd love to use them with my IG/Marines, but they're just too weak.

I love heavy bolters... they look great modified as deffguns and big shootas for my orks!

as for lasguns... they are fine how they are, ap1 would work for say 50 points per upgrade... and note in my marines I do run lasguns, on my dreds, razerbacks, and preds

Brother SRM wrote:And take away the one ranged advantage that Eldar have? Not likely. It would also make lascannons above and beyond better than brightlances instead of their level of give and take that they enjoy now.

Eldar don't have the strongest lances anyway.

rigeld2 wrote:

Deadshot wrote:That is not what I want. I want

Rg 48
Str 9
AP 2
Heavy 1, Lance

Why? How many las cannons can you pack in a list?

For guard? We can easily bring between 20 to 30 if we feel like it, possibly even more. We can bring so many the friggin things practically become anti horde weapons. The way they're statted at and priced at feels pretty fair (we get them for 20pts in most squads and 15pts a pop in the HWS's. Then of course you have things like russes, vendettas, etc.)

If you had this stat type for lascannons, IG would become the most terrifying army on the tabletop. You thought longfang spam was bad? Wait till you meet IGSAOD, aka the Imperial guard shooty army of doom. With the lance type, we literally wouldn't need melta guns anymore, as we could just stand back and kill every single piece of armor on the field by turn 2.

MrMoustaffa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Deadshot wrote:That is not what I want. I want

Rg 48
Str 9
AP 2
Heavy 1, Lance

Why? How many las cannons can you pack in a list?

For guard? We can easily bring between 20 to 30 if we feel like it, possibly even more. We can bring so many the friggin things practically become anti horde weapons. The way they're statted at and priced at feels pretty fair (we get them for 20pts in most squads and 15pts a pop in the HWS's. Then of course you have things like russes, vendettas, etc.)

If you had this stat type for lascannons, IG would become the most terrifying army on the tabletop. You thought longfang spam was bad? Wait till you meet IGSAOD, aka the Imperial guard shooty army of doom. With the lance type, we literally wouldn't need melta guns anymore, as we could just stand back and kill every single piece of armor on the field by turn 2.

That's exactly what they already are. So many models its silly and broken. Note that I have never lost to a guard player so its not bitterness.

Deadshot wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Deadshot wrote:That is not what I want. I want

Rg 48
Str 9
AP 2
Heavy 1, Lance

Why? How many las cannons can you pack in a list?

For guard? We can easily bring between 20 to 30 if we feel like it, possibly even more. We can bring so many the friggin things practically become anti horde weapons. The way they're statted at and priced at feels pretty fair (we get them for 20pts in most squads and 15pts a pop in the HWS's. Then of course you have things like russes, vendettas, etc.)

If you had this stat type for lascannons, IG would become the most terrifying army on the tabletop. You thought longfang spam was bad? Wait till you meet IGSAOD, aka the Imperial guard shooty army of doom. With the lance type, we literally wouldn't need melta guns anymore, as we could just stand back and kill every single piece of armor on the field by turn 2.

That's exactly what they already are. So many models its silly and broken. Note that I have never lost to a guard player so its not bitterness.

Would you rather we be able to field 20 to 30 S9 AP 2 lances?

I was mainly using it as an example of why the lascannon is what is. Not many normal IG lists are going to bring that many lascannons oto a game. If you see that many, either your opponent is doing it for the laughs, or they're just being evil

Let us see. The Imperial Guard would have the best tanks in the game, with the best Anti-Tank gun platform. Yes, this is a good idea. Tell you what, you make them AP one, and make the vendetta cost 205 to 215 points. Also make the Lascannon cost 50 points base, and maybe we'll talk about this. I mean, you can already field a crazy amount of Melta already. So why do you want AP1 Lascannons? The AP2 still make terminators cry, the strength 9 is nothing to sneeze at. Making it AP1 nearly puts it on the same scale as a Tau Railgun.

Lance on an almost universally available weapon would invalidate the effectiveness of armor 13 and 14 the way ubiquitous 4+ cover saves have invalidated ap 4/5/6 weapons.

You also pay a premium for that weapon sub type. A scout sentinel pays 15 points for a lascannon, a nearly identical war walker pays twice that price for a strength 8 lance weapon. Which is objectively worse than a lascannon for av 10, 11, and 12; the same for av 13; and only ever better against av14. Double the price for 1 third the vehicle coverage, less if you consider how many magnitudes more popular av10/11/12 vehicles are than av14 right now.

This idea was ill conceived. Imperials already have the better & cheaper tank busting weapon option, they really don't need it to get even better for no raisin.

Actinium wrote:Lance on an almost universally available weapon would invalidate the effectiveness of armor 13 and 14 the way ubiquitous 4+ cover saves have invalidated ap 4/5/6 weapons.

You also pay a premium for that weapon sub type. A scout sentinel pays 15 points for a lascannon, a nearly identical war walker pays twice that price for a strength 8 lance weapon. Which is objectively worse than a lascannon for av 10, 11, and 12; the same for av 13; and only ever better against av14. Double the price for 1 third the vehicle coverage, less if you consider how many magnitudes more popular av10/11/12 vehicles are than av14 right now.

This idea was ill conceived. Imperials already have the better & cheaper tank busting weapon option, they really don't need it to get even better for no raisin.

The big brain am winning again! I am the greetest! Now I am leaving Earth for no raisin!

Sorry sorry don't take offense, just the first thing that popped into my head. I agree with your points as well.

I hardly ever take Brightlances on anything unless I am forced to due to bad codex design (Wraithlords) since they are so very expensive averaging at 40 points (that is 40 points on certain BS3 models as well!). If I got to pay the same points for a Lascannon I'd take the Lascannon, it is simply put better against everything except the very rare AV14. Now that Marines tend to pay less at BS4 for those than I do for Brightlances at BS3, I have a hard time sympathizing.

I just don't see what more "lance"-weapons would add to the game, even if you ignore all fluff and whatever.

It's not like Landraiders and new-Monoliths are rampaging all over the game. Lance-lascannons would just push those further into obscurity and do absolutely nothing against the deluge of Venoms, Razorbacks and Chimeras.

Scipio Africanus wrote:I'm not saying that it should be, but I don't understand why it isn't.

IT is meant to be an anti-tank weapon, yet it lacks a piece of rule that would make it eternally better against tanks. In the Space marine codex, it is described as the finest anti-tank weapon in existance (or thereabout) yet it is so fundamentally flawed that I can't possibly understand its role.

Sure, it can pop AV14 potentially but what truly allows it to be a good tank hunter is just its range.

I'd love to see an AP1 lascannon, though I don't think it should happen.

what are your thoughts?

It isnt that way because its not good/powerful enough to be represented by s9 ap1. or to have the "lance" rule. its as simple as that. Just because its "meant to be an anti tank weapons", doesnt mean it has the justification to be the "greatest anti tank weapon" in the game. Its a good piece of kit. Its hardly flawed by any definition. But as good as it is, there is better stuff. as there should be. Its not a weapon that defies the laws of physics and science itself, like eldar lance tech, or travels at a velocity that is all but unimaginable, tau railgun tech. its just a big gun that puts holes in tanks.

Scipio Africanus wrote:I'm not saying that it should be, but I don't understand why it isn't.

IT is meant to be an anti-tank weapon, yet it lacks a piece of rule that would make it eternally better against tanks. In the Space marine codex, it is described as the finest anti-tank weapon in existance (or thereabout) yet it is so fundamentally flawed that I can't possibly understand its role.

Sure, it can pop AV14 potentially but what truly allows it to be a good tank hunter is just its range.

I'd love to see an AP1 lascannon, though I don't think it should happen.

what are your thoughts?

It is the finest anti-tank weapon in existence *IN THE IMPERIUM*. Important distinction there. There are races out there that have better tech and better gear so the AP value on a lascannon is just fine at 2. I'm sorry that you have roll a 5 or 6 to pop AV14. Given the high numbers of non-Imperial armies with AV14 tanks, ummm...yeah NOT!...this is hardly a problem. Make a lascannon AP 1 and/or a lance and you need to add even more special rules to show the fact that eldar weapons are more advanced and then someone else will complain that the lascannon doesn't have those abilities and so on and so on...

Skriker

I think the lascannon is way under powered. Lets make it range 120 str D assualt 6. And its too expensive so lets make it 5ppm. And only Imperials get it. So yeah.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I think the lascannon is way under powered. Lets make it range 120 str D assualt 6. And its too expensive so lets make it 5ppm. And only Imperials get it. So yeah.

No, it should work like blood talons. So:

Strength D, Unlimited range, Assault X, (So every hit that it makes it can make another) and make it free with every 10 Tactical Marines.

Also it should not need line of sight. And has the same effect as a psyocculum only for vehicles. So BS 10 when fired at them. And for kicks make it twin linked so you have 4 tries to make a 2+ to hit.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Also it should not need line of sight. And has the same effect as a psyocculum only for vehicles. So BS 10 when fired at them. And for kicks make it twin linked so you have 4 tries to make a 2+ to hit.

And an AA mount. Plus, it could be negative points, just to counter it's ineffectiveness.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Also it should not need line of sight. And has the same effect as a psyocculum only for vehicles. So BS 10 when fired at them. And for kicks make it twin linked so you have 4 tries to make a 2+ to hit.

As trollful as this is a slight error is that a BS 10 TL can only reroll due to twinlinked. See the rulebook on rerolls and BS6+.

Deadshot wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Also it should not need line of sight. And has the same effect as a psyocculum only for vehicles. So BS 10 when fired at them. And for kicks make it twin linked so you have 4 tries to make a 2+ to hit.

As trollful as this is a slight error is that a BS 10 TL can only reroll due to twinlinked. See the rulebook on rerolls and BS6+.

Its the lascannon special rule. It allows re rolls on the re rolls.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I think the lascannon is way under powered. Lets make it range 120 str D assualt 6. And its too expensive so lets make it 5ppm. And only Imperials get it. So yeah.

You forgot both the lance and melta rules. Only then will it be reasonably competitive.

Well feth me over and pour me out for asking a question. I specifically said "I DON'T KNOW" because I was curious for opinions. I was not proposing the idea. you might like to remember that this is in GD for a reason.

Well the answer came pretty early on: For game balance. That's all there is to it.

Because there's nothing about a lazor that would make it AP1. The way I see it, a Lascannon is a lot like a kamehameha. It hits with brute force. A meltagun shoots viscious molten material or something, which eats its way through armor, so it's hitting with the aid of chemical (or atomic) process.

I know in the fluff a lascannon usually spells death, and I'm not saying it isn't good at killing tanks, but AP1 is an elevation over AP2 (which for all intensive purposes is the highest AP goes) that's really just a privilege. Something needs to deserve AP1, either by means like how the meltagun works, or the extreme technology (heat lance). A lascannon is essentially just a bloated lasgun.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Because there's nothing about a lazor that would make it AP1. The way I see it, a Lascannon is a lot like a kamehameha. It hits with brute force. A meltagun shoots viscious molten material or something, which eats its way through armor, so it's hitting with the aid of chemical (or atomic) process.

The Death Star would like to have a word with you...

Scipio Africanus wrote:Well feth me over and pour me out for asking a question. I specifically said "I DON'T KNOW" because I was curious for opinions. I was not proposing the idea. you might like to remember that this is in GD for a reason.

Yeah, but you forget something, people rarely get to complain about lascannons. Usually they're complaining about other things, but when's the last time you saw a thread where people get to rag on lascannons? It'd be like a thread raging about the effectiveness (or more appropriately, lack thereof) of ratlings. People want to rag on lascannons because they never get a good reason to, and you gave them the perfect chance!

You only get to complain about lascannons once!

Ok, serious time now. I dont think a lot of people read that far down your post. People saw "lascannon should be AP1" and freaked out, for a good reason. Maybe changing the thread's title to "What if a lascannon was AP1?" would help. That way, people can tell you're just asking a "what if" scenario, instead of thinking that you're just upset your lascannons don't kill everything in LOS of your marines .

Also, the codexes contain fluff based on what that faction believes. Heck, the imperial guard and ork codexes are filled with way crazier stuff about what their weapons can supposedly do. The space marines think the lascannon is the best anti tank gun in the galaxy because "Space marines are the best. They get the best gear, the best training, the best vehicles, the best everything. Therefore, whatever anti tank weapons they get, must be the best in the galaxy, because we all know xenos tech is garbage and the Mecharius always give the best weapons to the space marines " It's the same reason why the orks claim they have the stompiest titans, or why the guard claim they have the best tanks, each faction is going to say they're the best.