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Testify wrote:[The one thing that blobs have is their cover save

And numbers, and firepower, and staying power in close combat.

Plus, you don't need cover saves against template weapons if you have proper spacing. A drop pod sternguard with combi-flamers is a 300 point joke to a properly castling guard player.

Blob IG's worst match-up is against Dark Eldar with Razorwings / Shatterfield Missiles. The more Razors the worse.

Even with ideal spacing, you could look at taking upwards of 30-40 saves on 3 separate blobs before the real fight even begins.

The next worse pairing would be DoA Blood Angles. Drop podded blood talons on a few Furiosos can be just as devastating, though easier to stop by firing at them asap - something you won't get to do with Razorwings popping in from reserve and shooting all missiles and weapons at you with their aerial assault rule.


Best counter in both cases would be the master of the fleet or whoever the guy is that penalizes enemy reserve rolls. Not a fantastic option, but it will hinder DE from hiding Razors in reserve and might hinder DoA, though not a whole lot.

20 shots -> 13 hits ->8 wounds->4 dead then 40 attacks -> 26 hits -> 17 wounds

statistically 2 tac squads on the charge force a wound on a commissar in a 21 man blob.

if the commissar holds, 6 men will be surviving one of them the commissar, statistically both sergeants should be dead then. Hitting back results in <1 killing marine (5 regular attacks, 2,5 hits, <1 wound and commissar 3 attacks 1,5 hits, <1 wound). Next phase sees 20 attacks -> 13 hits -> 8 wounds. Another one on commissar. Now he should be dead.

So statistics say that if I stall the counter and get 2 full tac squads into a charge against a 20 man blob, he will die and I will maybe lose a single Marine (apart from the stalling squad (which can be also a dread of course...).

And those are crappy tacs. I dont know what marvel stories are told, but this is neither a dedicated close combat force nor highly unlikely.

-Nazdreg- wrote:statistically 2 tac squads on the charge force a wound on a commissar in a 21 man blob.

This is pure fantasy.

Two full-strength tac squads charge across open ground taking absolutely zero casualties and charge into close combat?

This delusion doesn't even prove anything other than in a fantasy world 300 points of space marines have the chance to make a 165 point blob squad fail an armor save and break. Run some real matchups and you'll see the error of this position.

-Nazdreg- wrote:20 shots -> 13 hits ->8 wounds->4 dead then 40 attacks -> 26 hits -> 17 wounds

statistically 2 tac squads on the charge force a wound on a commissar in a 21 man blob.

if the commissar holds, 6 men will be surviving one of them the commissar, statistically both sergeants should be dead then. Hitting back results in <1 killing marine (5 regular attacks, 2,5 hits, <1 wound and commissar 3 attacks 1,5 hits, <1 wound). Next phase sees 20 attacks -> 13 hits -> 8 wounds. Another one on commissar. Now he should be dead.

So statistics say that if I stall the counter and get 2 full tac squads into a charge against a 20 man blob, he will die and I will maybe lose a single Marine (apart from the stalling squad (which can be also a dread of course...).

And those are crappy tacs. I dont know what marvel stories are told, but this is neither a dedicated close combat force nor highly unlikely.

Right then the other blobs charge in and wipe the marines. Your saying 3 tac squads can beat a single 21 man blob. Well duh. However a blob cost about as much as a tac squad, so after they somehow magically shoot then assualt that one blob they have to deal with 2 more, who now not only get to shoot but have the charge...

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

-Nazdreg- wrote:20 shots -> 13 hits ->8 wounds->4 dead then 40 attacks -> 26 hits -> 17 wounds

statistically 2 tac squads on the charge force a wound on a commissar in a 21 man blob.

if the commissar holds, 6 men will be surviving one of them the commissar, statistically both sergeants should be dead then. Hitting back results in <1 killing marine (5 regular attacks, 2,5 hits, <1 wound and commissar 3 attacks 1,5 hits, <1 wound). Next phase sees 20 attacks -> 13 hits -> 8 wounds. Another one on commissar. Now he should be dead.

So statistics say that if I stall the counter and get 2 full tac squads into a charge against a 20 man blob, he will die and I will maybe lose a single Marine (apart from the stalling squad (which can be also a dread of course...).

And those are crappy tacs. I dont know what marvel stories are told, but this is neither a dedicated close combat force nor highly unlikely.

Right then the other blobs charge in and wipe the marines. Your saying 3 tac squads can beat a single 21 man blob. Well duh. However a blob cost about as much as a tac squad, so after they somehow magically shoot then assualt that one blob they have to deal with 2 more, who now not only get to shoot but have the charge...

A 3 squad blob with PWs costs 225. A tactical squad costs 170.
Anyway it's not charging tactical squads (lol) that should worry you. It's vanguards deep-striking next to you and assaulting you out of range of your PWs, jump infantry doing something similar, striking scorpians, khorne beserkers, Death Company, etc. You don't need to leave the Troops section to find plenty that can squish blobs in assault.

Way to go joey. Completely ignore the part where he mentions a 21 man blob. Its cool.

Vanguard squad of 5 basic vanguards costs the same as a blob. And will kill 8 on the charge. Assualt marines are even worse.

So forgive me if I dont quite buy what your selling joey.

As for striking scorpions they are weaker marines. Not sure how they can mulch blobs.

Guard Blobs worst matchup? Me. My old Artillery Park would have a field day leveling all your blobs into the fine, pink slime you'd find in your Big Mac. Griffons and Colossus make a mess of anything since it has such an obnoxious surface area. Maybe a couple Mortar Squads to sweeten the deal.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Way to go joey. Completely ignore the part where he mentions a 21 man blob. Its cool.

Vanguard squad of 5 basic vanguards costs the same as a blob. And will kill 8 on the charge. Assualt marines are even worse.

So forgive me if I dont quite buy what your selling joey.

As for striking scorpions they are weaker marines. Not sure how they can mulch blobs.

The vanguards don't wipe out the blob, they hold them in place while other stuff moves around/claims objectives/charges them.
A 21-man blob is fine unless you plan on doing something, anything with it. It can't shoot anything, it can't melée anything. All it will do is die.
Striking scorpians have 3+ armour save and strike at S4 with 3 attacks (iirc) on the charge. With 3s to hit, 3s to wound, and re-rollable armour saves. Yes, they will mulch blobs just fine.

I run 21 man blobs. They are more flexible. They also can shoot and assault just fine. It just requires a bit more use of tactics, when to charge, multi charge, baiting ect. Plus with 21 men blobs you get two per platoon, so you save on having to buy a new platoon.

Striking scorpions are still t3 so its easier to wound. (1/2 instead of 1/3) And of course the best defense is a good offense so charge them first. I find , at least in my local meta, that no one expects the guard to charge them.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I run 21 man blobs. They are more flexible. They also can shoot and assault just fine. It just requires a bit more use of tactics, when to charge, multi charge, baiting ect. Plus with 21 men blobs you get two per platoon, so you save on having to buy a new platoon.

Striking scorpions are still t3 so its easier to wound. (1/2 instead of 1/3) And of course the best defense is a good offense so charge them first. I find , at least in my local meta, that no one expects the guard to charge them.

Your local meta consists of people you've charged in the past, but still don't expect the guard to charge them again.
Either you don't charge your guard, and you're lying, or you do charge your guard and your opponents fall for this time after time.
So either you are dishonest or you play against imbeciles.

For the record a 21-man blob (165 points) being charged by 10 striking scorpians (160 points) will take 4.4 casualties from shooting, then be charged for 31 attacks, 20 hits, 13 wounds( 17 with doom), 8.6 dead (11 with doom). That's 13 dead in one turn. Guard strike back with 9 PW attacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 dead. The normal guys also do 5 attacks, 2.5 hit, 1.25 wound, 0.4 failed armour saves, that's 2.6 dead in total.
The turn after gives 15 attacks, 10 hits, 6.6 wounds, 4.4 dead. And if either of those rounds the blob was Doomed (pretty likely), they're dead.
You might be satisfied with a 3:1 casualty ratio in your enemy's favour, I am not.

And if the 21 man squad charges the 10 man scorpion squad, the IG wipes the scorpion squad over 3 rounds of combat with a small handful of men left over. That's fine with me.

Which do you think is more likely to get the charge...the unit that's in the fast skimmer, or the one that's going to have to difficult terrain to move pretty much anywhere?

true the blob has its weaknesses and comparing a base infantry unit to an elite assault unit is never going to go well.

Answer me this in your local meta how often do you see 10 man striking scorpion squads how well do they stand up to a possible 60 shots 30 hit 15 wound 5 dead i'll take that. thats without c ounting heavy or special weapons so yeah

edit: yes blobs have weakness to assault troops due to t3 and 5+ armor but you counter it with numbers and shooting

In all honesty being meléed by Eldar infantry probably doesn't keep many blob guard players awake at night, that's true.
But there are units in plenty of other armies that will.

Joey wrote:In all honesty being meléed by Eldar infantry probably doesn't keep many blob guard players awake at night, that's true.
But there are units in plenty of other armies that will.

agreed

Ailaros wrote:

-Nazdreg- wrote:statistically 2 tac squads on the charge force a wound on a commissar in a 21 man blob.

This is pure fantasy.

Two full-strength tac squads charge across open ground taking absolutely zero casualties and charge into close combat?

This delusion doesn't even prove anything other than in a fantasy world 300 points of space marines have the chance to make a 165 point blob squad fail an armor save and break. Run some real matchups and you'll see the error of this position.

Well technically they don't charge across open ground... Yes. I have had a full tac squad, sometimes 2-3, on the 2nd turn, and my opponent has moved his blob up. Its not terribly hard to see, once objectives and the rest of the forces are taken into account.

Joey wrote:In all honesty being meléed by Eldar infantry probably doesn't keep many blob guard players awake at night, that's true.
But there are units in plenty of other armies that will.

10 Harlequins

Although their glass cannon qualities were displayed to me the other day. They charged a 20 blob, kill 5 ( )and the blob came back with 10 wounds, 8 saves, and the last two harlequins got cut down. that is terrible luck for the eldar play. I recall his avatar died to a single 20 blob of lasguns too

KplKeegan wrote:Guard Blobs worst matchup? Me. My old Artillery Park would have a field day leveling all your blobs into the fine, pink slime you'd find in your Big Mac. Griffons and Colossus make a mess of anything since it has such an obnoxious surface area. Maybe a couple Mortar Squads to sweeten the deal.

*golfclap*
And where you wearing your cool tough man glasses when you posted that ?

This thread has devolved into a circlejerk of people who are theorizing about dedicated close combat units at full strength charging an Imperial Guard blob squad.

Vladsimpaler wrote:This thread has devolved into a circlejerk of people who are theorizing about dedicated close combat units at full strength charging an Imperial Guard blob squad.

If IG blobs never got assaulted by dedicated close combat units, they'd be a no-brainer.

Joey wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:This thread has devolved into a circlejerk of people who are theorizing about dedicated close combat units at full strength charging an Imperial Guard blob squad.

If IG blobs never got assaulted by dedicated close combat units, they'd be a no-brainer.

Haha, alert the local news station. Might as well say, if tanks never got shot at by anti-tank weapons then they'd be a no-brainer.

I'm not doubting the fact that dedicated CC units mean trouble, I'm just doubting the "lol my 10 scorpions magically unharmed by any weapons in my army get into close combat and den you looze lmao" line of thinking that you and other people are espousing

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Joey wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:This thread has devolved into a circlejerk of people who are theorizing about dedicated close combat units at full strength charging an Imperial Guard blob squad.

If IG blobs never got assaulted by dedicated close combat units, they'd be a no-brainer.

Haha, alert the local news station. Might as well say, if tanks never got shot at by anti-tank weapons then they'd be a no-brainer.

I'm not doubting the fact that dedicated CC units mean trouble, I'm just doubting the "lol my 10 scorpions magically unharmed by any weapons in my army get into close combat and den you looze lmao" line of thinking that you and other people are espousing

If a couple of troop units could wipe out my mechanised veteran squads in one or two turns, I probably wouldn't take them. The comparison is invalid. There are no MEQ BS 4 meltagun-wielding troops.

Joey wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Joey wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:This thread has devolved into a circlejerk of people who are theorizing about dedicated close combat units at full strength charging an Imperial Guard blob squad.

If IG blobs never got assaulted by dedicated close combat units, they'd be a no-brainer.

Haha, alert the local news station. Might as well say, if tanks never got shot at by anti-tank weapons then they'd be a no-brainer.

I'm not doubting the fact that dedicated CC units mean trouble, I'm just doubting the "lol my 10 scorpions magically unharmed by any weapons in my army get into close combat and den you looze lmao" line of thinking that you and other people are espousing

If a couple of troop units could wipe out my mechanised veteran squads in one or two turns, I probably wouldn't take them. The comparison is invalid. There are no MEQ BS 4 meltagun-wielding troops.

GREY HUNTERS
CHAOS SPACE MARINES
PLAGUE MARINE
...TACTICAL MARINES ><?!? There are no MEQ BS4 meltagun wielding troops?...thats like every single marine army troop choice

Joey wrote:If a couple of troop units could wipe out my mechanised veteran squads in one or two turns, I probably wouldn't take them

10 GH, 2x meltaguns. I blow your chimera, you lose a couple of guys, I charge you, and turn you into ground beef. One squad. ONE. Imagine two squads, if I get one to blow the chimera, one to rapid fire, the meltagunners to charge. Or pistol and charge both squads in! I reckon with "a couple of troop units" I could wipe your mechanized vet squad in a single phase. I don't even know why I'm using "I" here, because anyone with a half a brain can do this providing they have 2 MEQ units

I don't play guard, so cannot dress a comprehensive list.

What I CAN tell you, is that my tau slaughter blob guard.

Everything in my army wounds on 2's and ignores your armour, and most of my weapons ignore carapace too.

Most of the weapons in my army have high VoF

Most of my models are 3+ 2W

My basic infantry has 4+ armour.

Plus, you cannot use melee against me as most armies can if you're going infantry blob, because JSJ means you won't catch me. Also, most of my weapons outrange guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GREY HUNTERS
CHAOS SPACE MARINES
PLAGUE MARINE
...TACTICAL MARINES ><?!? There are no MEQ BS4 meltagun wielding troops?...thats like every single marine army troop choice

You forgot Blood Angels, where every weapon seems to have the melta rule.

This is pure fantasy.

Two full-strength tac squads charge across open ground taking absolutely zero casualties and charge into close combat?

Is it? Imagine 2 rhinos moving up in front of a blob and pop smoke. Now the blob gets 2 meltaguns in, you get 50% chance on a vehicle damage roll given that the hit also pens (which is most likely). So a total of a bit less than 25% that the rhino will be destroyed. If it isn't destroyed 2 full strength tac squads will emerge out of it and charge (through open ground or not is unimportant, in fact I was assuming cover for the blob because only a fool stays in open gound) into the blob with the given result.

But what do most people do (including your sob opponent although he was facing priest blobs... )? 12" disembark and rapid fire into the blob, which is of course rubbish. Guard infantry is not so vulnerable to shooting as I wrote in the penal legion thread. (40 shots, 26 hits 17 wounds 8 dead) Blob will charge one squad if there is a second one present they will chargte the other and the marines will get killed in attrition fight.

You also cant assume full 21 man size blobs then if I cant assume 2 full strength tac squads. So this is a pointless argument anyways. Remember we talk about blob guard. That means immobile anti tank weaponry and slow meltaguns. It will be most likely that the blob doesnt get the charge confronted with transport vehicles.

Of course I talk about 500+ points spent to shut down <200p in one sweep and if done smartly <400p in two sweeps. But this is a fair number. There are of course better units (Black Templar claw termies, death company, ork boyz, jump pack marines in suitable numbers or with sanguinary priest support, grey hunters, purifiers, dark eldar beastmasters, genestealers, fnp toxic furious charge termagants) but even 20 tacs will do the job.
And if done correctly the counter will not be present. Vehicles are a mobile wall you know? Block the counter off, consolidate away from the second blob and you have done it. The game is won in the movement phase.

Vladsimpaler wrote:This thread has devolved into a circlejerk of people who are theorizing about dedicated close combat units at full strength charging an Imperial Guard blob squad.

Welcome to every IG tactics thread ever

OT: Aside from DE (Which I mentioned earlier) The only other armies I'd ever be "worried" about would be greentide, the tyranid endless pooping babies list, and maybe a Blood angles list (never played them, but I've seen some of Ailaros's battle reports against them, and they do not look fun)

First two because they know exactly what I'm up to (they're horde players too) and they have an actual chance of outnumbering me. The last one, because I've never fought it, and I would have a hard time coping, just like DE, because I don't know them very well yet.

I'd take my gunline IG against a blob army any day, 7-9 large blast and 6 small blast per turn at 2k, and 7 large and 12 small per turn at 2.5k, not counting all the heavy bolter, multilaser, and flamers that will be piling on wounds as well. I've faced full foot guard before at 2500, and by turn 6 he only had maybe 15 guys left on the table. And really, that list wasn't optimized, you could put in a lot more stuff to kill hordes if you wanted to.

-Nazdreg- wrote:

This is pure fantasy.

Two full-strength tac squads charge across open ground taking absolutely zero casualties and charge into close combat?

Is it? Imagine 2 rhinos moving up in front of a blob and pop smoke. Now the blob gets 2 meltaguns in and of course I am neglecting to mention the autocannon and lascannon heavy weapon teams because it makes my argument stronger, and I am also conveniently forgetting Fire On My Target! because it makes me look better, you get 50% chance on a vehicle damage roll given that the hit also pens (which is most likely). So a total of a bit less than 25% that the rhino will be destroyed. If it isn't destroyed 2 full strength tac squads will emerge out of it and charge (through open ground or not is unimportant, in fact I was assuming cover for the blob because only a fool stays in open gound) into the blob with the given result.

Fixed. Also congratulations, your 400 points just wiped out a ~200 point unit and will get annihilated next turn, you must be so proud

I've found Lash chaos to be a tough but still winnable fight,

Purifiers also are up there. along with Blood angels.

Vs Dark Eldar vensom spam i've done ok actually so far.


@ Nazdreg, i disagre, I've had 2 grey hunter squads Vs a blob of mine (I assaulted but didnt have any bonuses) and I cleared both away in combat. maybe i was lucky, but the masses of power weapons and bodies allowed me to remove one squad, then take down the other.


@Testify, dependins on the numebr of infantry i've found whirlwinds not that big a threat if you just spread out, same with sternguard drop pods, in cove I can happily soak their 20 wounds assuming they all hit and wound on the men, and btwtwen hits, wounds and cover not all 20 will go through (I run 41 man blobs) and shoot them up afterwards then assault.

Although you're listig units which havent appeared much or in tourneys at all for me, is you gear for facing blobs maybe, but for tourney lists never see them.

Jihallah wrote:

Joey wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Joey wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:This thread has devolved into a circlejerk of people who are theorizing about dedicated close combat units at full strength charging an Imperial Guard blob squad.

If IG blobs never got assaulted by dedicated close combat units, they'd be a no-brainer.

Haha, alert the local news station. Might as well say, if tanks never got shot at by anti-tank weapons then they'd be a no-brainer.

I'm not doubting the fact that dedicated CC units mean trouble, I'm just doubting the "lol my 10 scorpions magically unharmed by any weapons in my army get into close combat and den you looze lmao" line of thinking that you and other people are espousing

If a couple of troop units could wipe out my mechanised veteran squads in one or two turns, I probably wouldn't take them. The comparison is invalid. There are no MEQ BS 4 meltagun-wielding troops.

GREY HUNTERS
CHAOS SPACE MARINES
PLAGUE MARINE
...TACTICAL MARINES ><?!? There are no MEQ BS4 meltagun wielding troops?...thats like every single marine army troop choice

I look foward to playing against the marine/chaos player who runs his unmeched infantry right up to my lines. Seriously.
Plasma vets have the MEQ killing power that blobs lack completely.
In addition, wiping out a tank is much more difficult than cutting swatches out of a blob. As anyone who's fired a Vendetta against a Rhino will tell you, penetration does not equal popped vehicle, at all. 2 BS 4 Meltaguns vs the front of a chimera is 1.3 hits, 1.2 penetrating and 0.6 wrecked or exploded. 0.3 chance of being exploded, mind you.
Compare this to the odds of a blob being charged by a horde of DC or Beserkers. Blob guard are much, much easier to kill than mechanised, even assuming the enemy can magic those melta guns around.

Jihallah wrote:

Joey wrote:If a couple of troop units could wipe out my mechanised veteran squads in one or two turns, I probably wouldn't take them

10 GH, 2x meltaguns. I blow your chimera, you lose a couple of guys, I charge you, and turn you into ground beef. One squad. ONE. Imagine two squads, if I get one to blow the chimera, one to rapid fire, the meltagunners to charge. Or pistol and charge both squads in! I reckon with "a couple of troop units" I could wipe your mechanized vet squad in a single phase. I don't even know why I'm using "I" here, because anyone with a half a brain can do this providing they have 2 MEQ units

As mentioned above, the chance of a chimera being wrecked or exploded from two BS 4 meltaguns is 0.6 (Unless there is something in the codex that improves this, in which case fair enough). Either way, the chance of me deploying my vets within charge range of your troops is nil.
Best case (for me) I'm wrecked and I deploy out the back, easily >6" away from the troops that shot the transport.
Worst case I deploy in a crater, still probably 6" away but either way you'll need a difficult terrain test.
Even if you do charge and liquidise them, by some miricle. Thankfully I play mech, so next turn you're going to be getting a face full of plasma guns from all across the line.
Hell sometimes the best thing that can happen is duping my opponent into thinking that killing my men is important, since 99% of the time it means they're in prime range of the rest of my chaps.

Joey wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

Joey wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Joey wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:This thread has devolved into a circlejerk of people who are theorizing about dedicated close combat units at full strength charging an Imperial Guard blob squad.

If IG blobs never got assaulted by dedicated close combat units, they'd be a no-brainer.

Haha, alert the local news station. Might as well say, if tanks never got shot at by anti-tank weapons then they'd be a no-brainer.

I'm not doubting the fact that dedicated CC units mean trouble, I'm just doubting the "lol my 10 scorpions magically unharmed by any weapons in my army get into close combat and den you looze lmao" line of thinking that you and other people are espousing

If a couple of troop units could wipe out my mechanised veteran squads in one or two turns, I probably wouldn't take them. The comparison is invalid. There are no MEQ BS 4 meltagun-wielding troops.

GREY HUNTERS
CHAOS SPACE MARINES
PLAGUE MARINE
...TACTICAL MARINES ><?!? There are no MEQ BS4 meltagun wielding troops?...thats like every single marine army troop choice

I look foward to playing against the marine/chaos player who runs his unmeched infantry right up to my lines. Seriously.
Plasma vets have the MEQ killing power that blobs lack completely.
In addition, wiping out a tank is much more difficult than cutting swatches out of a blob. As anyone who's fired a Vendetta against a Rhino will tell you, penetration does not equal popped vehicle, at all. 2 BS 4 Meltaguns vs the front of a chimera is 1.3 hits, 1.2 penetrating and 0.6 wrecked or exploded. 0.3 chance of being exploded, mind you.
Compare this to the odds of a blob being charged by a horde of DC or Beserkers. Blob guard are much, much easier to kill than mechanised, even assuming the enemy can magic those melta guns around.

Y'know, if you're gonna make gakky comparisons, at least don't flip flop when you're using them. Also no-one said that the Grey Hunters weren't going to be in a Rhino.