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That was an opening statement and had little to do with the bulk of my point.
Please address arguments rather than picking a single sentence at random.

Joey wrote:That was an opening statement and had little to do with the bulk of my point.
Please address arguments rather than picking a single sentence at random.

You're making this big deal about how your mechvets aren't very likely to just get melta-gunned to death by "magic melta guns", but earlier you post something like this:

Joey wrote:
For the record a 21-man blob (165 points) being charged by 10 striking scorpians (160 points) will take 4.4 casualties from shooting, then be charged for 31 attacks, 20 hits, 13 wounds( 17 with doom), 8.6 dead (11 with doom). That's 13 dead in one turn. Guard strike back with 9 PW attacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 dead. The normal guys also do 5 attacks, 2.5 hit, 1.25 wound, 0.4 failed armour saves, that's 2.6 dead in total.
The turn after gives 15 attacks, 10 hits, 6.6 wounds, 4.4 dead. And if either of those rounds the blob was Doomed (pretty likely), they're dead.
You might be satisfied with a 3:1 casualty ratio in your enemy's favour, I am not.

Wow, that sure seems like a "magic dedicated close combat unit". I picked at that sentence because that's the crux of your entire argument anyway. You think that blob squads suck solely because a full strength dedicated CC unit will kill it. Well no gak sherlock, a full unit of Fire Dragons will vaporize your Chimeras.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Joey wrote:That was an opening statement and had little to do with the bulk of my point.
Please address arguments rather than picking a single sentence at random.

You're making this big deal about how your mechvets aren't very likely to just get melta-gunned to death by "magic melta guns", but earlier you post something like this:

Joey wrote:
For the record a 21-man blob (165 points) being charged by 10 striking scorpians (160 points) will take 4.4 casualties from shooting, then be charged for 31 attacks, 20 hits, 13 wounds( 17 with doom), 8.6 dead (11 with doom). That's 13 dead in one turn. Guard strike back with 9 PW attacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 dead. The normal guys also do 5 attacks, 2.5 hit, 1.25 wound, 0.4 failed armour saves, that's 2.6 dead in total.
The turn after gives 15 attacks, 10 hits, 6.6 wounds, 4.4 dead. And if either of those rounds the blob was Doomed (pretty likely), they're dead.
You might be satisfied with a 3:1 casualty ratio in your enemy's favour, I am not.

Wow, that sure seems like a "magic dedicated close combat unit". I picked at that sentence because that's the crux of your entire argument anyway. You think that blob squads suck solely because a full strength dedicated CC unit will kill it. Well no gak sherlock, a full unit of Fire Dragons will vaporize your Chimeras.

Correction. They will vaporize *A* chimera.
As I addressed in my post (which you couldn't be arsed to read, clearly) mech vets can respond to threats in a way that blobs can't. If some Fire Dragons deep strike near my chimeras, they will be dead the turn after because I can just zip other units up to them and give them a face full of plasma. There's a reason Eldar don't kick mech guard's ass, mainly spending 80 points on a unit that a) has a good chance of dying during deep-strike due to a need to be in a very specific place and b)will only kill a 55 point unit anyway. I don't care if the vets take some casualties from the explosion and/or go to ground. As long as my Plasma Guns are alive, I can use get back in the fight (or just wait, if that's not available).

What do you do if a blob gets killed? Not much, since you'll have to difficult terrain almost everywhere, and by the time one blob is dead the rest of your army will probably be busy anyway.

Joey wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Joey wrote:That was an opening statement and had little to do with the bulk of my point.
Please address arguments rather than picking a single sentence at random.

You're making this big deal about how your mechvets aren't very likely to just get melta-gunned to death by "magic melta guns", but earlier you post something like this:

Joey wrote:
For the record a 21-man blob (165 points) being charged by 10 striking scorpians (160 points) will take 4.4 casualties from shooting, then be charged for 31 attacks, 20 hits, 13 wounds( 17 with doom), 8.6 dead (11 with doom). That's 13 dead in one turn. Guard strike back with 9 PW attacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 dead. The normal guys also do 5 attacks, 2.5 hit, 1.25 wound, 0.4 failed armour saves, that's 2.6 dead in total.
The turn after gives 15 attacks, 10 hits, 6.6 wounds, 4.4 dead. And if either of those rounds the blob was Doomed (pretty likely), they're dead.
You might be satisfied with a 3:1 casualty ratio in your enemy's favour, I am not.

Wow, that sure seems like a "magic dedicated close combat unit". I picked at that sentence because that's the crux of your entire argument anyway. You think that blob squads suck solely because a full strength dedicated CC unit will kill it. Well no gak sherlock, a full unit of Fire Dragons will vaporize your Chimeras.

Correction. They will vaporize *A* chimera.
As I addressed in my post (which you couldn't be arsed to read, clearly) mech vets can respond to threats in a way that blobs can't. If some Fire Dragons deep strike near my chimeras, they will be dead the turn after because I can just zip other units up to them and give them a face full of plasma. There's a reason Eldar don't kick mech guard's ass, mainly spending 80 points on a unit that a) has a good chance of dying during deep-strike due to a need to be in a very specific place and b)will only kill a 55 point unit anyway. I don't care if the vets take some casualties from the explosion and/or go to ground. As long as my Plasma Guns are alive, I can use get back in the fight (or just wait, if that's not available).

Fire Dragons don't deep strike so you obviously have no idea what you're talking about and as such I'm not gonna bother replying to the rest of that argument since the rest of it hinges on that assumption.

What do you do if a blob gets killed? Not much, since you'll have to difficult terrain almost everywhere, and by the time one blob is dead the rest of your army will probably be busy anyway.

In your fantasy world, yes, they will have to difficult terrain everywhere. Nice work though. You have definitely proved that in your fantasy world blob squads suck. I definitely have to concede that.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Joey wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Joey wrote:That was an opening statement and had little to do with the bulk of my point.
Please address arguments rather than picking a single sentence at random.

You're making this big deal about how your mechvets aren't very likely to just get melta-gunned to death by "magic melta guns", but earlier you post something like this:

Joey wrote:
For the record a 21-man blob (165 points) being charged by 10 striking scorpians (160 points) will take 4.4 casualties from shooting, then be charged for 31 attacks, 20 hits, 13 wounds( 17 with doom), 8.6 dead (11 with doom). That's 13 dead in one turn. Guard strike back with 9 PW attacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 dead. The normal guys also do 5 attacks, 2.5 hit, 1.25 wound, 0.4 failed armour saves, that's 2.6 dead in total.
The turn after gives 15 attacks, 10 hits, 6.6 wounds, 4.4 dead. And if either of those rounds the blob was Doomed (pretty likely), they're dead.
You might be satisfied with a 3:1 casualty ratio in your enemy's favour, I am not.

Wow, that sure seems like a "magic dedicated close combat unit". I picked at that sentence because that's the crux of your entire argument anyway. You think that blob squads suck solely because a full strength dedicated CC unit will kill it. Well no gak sherlock, a full unit of Fire Dragons will vaporize your Chimeras.

Correction. They will vaporize *A* chimera.
As I addressed in my post (which you couldn't be arsed to read, clearly) mech vets can respond to threats in a way that blobs can't. If some Fire Dragons deep strike near my chimeras, they will be dead the turn after because I can just zip other units up to them and give them a face full of plasma. There's a reason Eldar don't kick mech guard's ass, mainly spending 80 points on a unit that a) has a good chance of dying during deep-strike due to a need to be in a very specific place and b)will only kill a 55 point unit anyway. I don't care if the vets take some casualties from the explosion and/or go to ground. As long as my Plasma Guns are alive, I can use get back in the fight (or just wait, if that's not available).

Fire Dragons don't deep strike so you obviously have no idea what you're talking about and as such I'm not gonna bother replying to the rest of that argument since the rest of it hinges on that assumption.

D'oh. Guess you showed me! Those none deep-striking T3 models really loosen my bowels...

Vladsimpaler wrote:

In your fantasy world, yes, they will have to difficult terrain everywhere. Nice work though. You have definitely proved that in your fantasy world blob squads suck. I definitely have to concede that.

This is a gaming table.

Notice the terrain.
If you can fit 30-40 guys on a table, spread out enough to reduce losses from templates/blast markers, without having to move through difficult terrain when moving, then you aren't playing with enough terrain. Having to difficult terrain mobs (of all types) is generally considered a noticable drawback.

I play infantry guard a ton.
The terrain thing doesnt matter too much as for the most part you arent running guard as an assault army speed isnt too much of an issue.
Striking scorps, zerks, ect. Being able to win in cc is moot as well, its unlikely you will see an army super heavy in any of these anti blob models and the ones you do see can generally be focused down.
I use al harims outflanking melta circus to overwhelm a flank and valks or creed to reach the other, usually mobility is a non issue.
Against some models, yeah you may get cut down 2 or 3 to 1, but throw enough lasguns at it, and you dont have to worry. Very few things can take 100 plus lasguns and a dozen or more melta/las/autocannon

Out of interest, you ever played against a universal FNP army?

I played against a ba fnp army, was close but lost that one, i can def see nurgle being an issue but if i can tie them up the msu portion of the army should be able to mass contest.

Joey wrote:
D'oh. Guess you showed me! Those none deep-striking T3 models really loosen my bowels...

Until they swoop by on a Wave Serpent (remember, we're in your fantasy land where the unit arrives perfectly unharmed) and nuke your Chimera/whatever vehicle you're using. Man, I can definitely see why you use these arguments! Makes it so much easier to prove that you're right. While we're at it, a Dire Avenger squad bladestorms your Vets. Where's your unit now?

Anyway, this thread is about why blob squads have some tough matchups, not why Mechvets are good.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

In your fantasy world, yes, they will have to difficult terrain everywhere. Nice work though. You have definitely proved that in your fantasy world blob squads suck. I definitely have to concede that.

This is a gaming table.

Notice the terrain.
If you can fit 30-40 guys on a table, spread out enough to reduce losses from templates/blast markers, without having to move through difficult terrain when moving, then you aren't playing with enough terrain. Having to difficult terrain mobs (of all types) is generally considered a noticable drawback.

That's a nice table. Again you're making weird ass assumptions about how all gaming tables look. Every single table I've ever played on looks nothing like that. Now have I had to take DT tests before? Yeah sure. But I've never played on a table that designates pretty much everything as difficult terrain. So really every gaming table is different and we're going back to your fantasy world.

Joey wrote:Out of interest, you ever played against a universal FNP army?

Actually, my foot guard blob army has played many times against a variety of Decent of Angels/ regular deployed blood angels and chaos nurgle marines.

My highest proportion of wins is against them. My foot blob guard table/solidly crushed them almost every time (95%+). I don't think small elite armies are a problem for blob guard, even with feel no pain. Almost everyone who plays successful guard of any fashion will tell you that the main killing power comes from endless numbers of lasguns.

I think I poped in on the end of a larger argument, so I'll quickly get back to the original question... Talos Pain Engines. Those are the bane of the blob. Toughness 7 means you can't even hurt it through weight of dice and while it'll be a very long fight tying you both up for the rest of the game, if it gets you before you get to your objective, you're stuck there until the bell goes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:I don't play guard, so cannot dress a comprehensive list.

What I CAN tell you, is that my tau slaughter blob guard.

Everything in my army wounds on 2's and ignores your armour, and most of my weapons ignore carapace too.

Most of the weapons in my army have high VoF

Most of my models are 3+ 2W

My basic infantry has 4+ armour.

Plus, you cannot use melee against me as most armies can if you're going infantry blob, because JSJ means you won't catch me. Also, most of my weapons outrange guard.

I am not trying to tell you you're wrong, just pointing out that you're making the argument seem too "you bring this army, I win".
I played against a Tau player yesterday using my blob guard. It was pitched battle and the 2 objective mission. With a 31 man mass of men with 3x lascannon, 3x Plasma gun, in cover holding my objective, he couldn't move them without exposing himself to serious return fire. so he picked away until turn 5 when he brought in 2 trasports with 8 warriros a piece and 2 2man suit squads. he did serious hurt to the blob, but in moving close enough to be on my objective the next round I was able to move off of my cover and assault the 8 man squad and multiassault one of the suit groups too with just one model from the blob. The now 9 man blob (with 3sgts+commissar with power weapons) massacred the firewarriors and the suits couldn't do enough to hold and hoo-ah, a surprise charge (since now I didn't hold my objective either), half won the game. The other half of the game was won by the remnants of 3 blobs who finaly made it, much reduced to the broadsides desperately trying to contest their home objective. The 6 sgts and 3 commissars all charged in and combined for 36 power sword attacks and wiped the full strength unit before the regular guardsmen could attack. The third half was making his troop choices my main target for almost the whole game and the last 50% was definately putting my objective as far away from his as possible and deploying 90% of my army as close to his objective as I could.

That's not to say I would beat you, just that blob guard can beat the tau, and I don't find it very difficult because (along with necrons at initiative 2), I can finally seriously do big damage in close combat, and while the massed guns is scary, I'm just used to taking casualties. Playing blobs is a tactical and strategic challenge, but is fun and very doable. You just need to make sure you deploy well, place objectives intelligently and place the terrain with a good eye for coverage. With 25% standard, it's not that hard to place enough terrain in the middle area of the table that you can advance through to get saving throws.

@Kungfujew,

I know it's not a 100% chance to beat you and all likeminded IG blob players, but I was just pointing out that blob guard are at a disadvantage against tau lists. With weapons optimized for killing light infantry, and great mobility...

With tau it really takes some poor planning to get suit in combat with non-jump infantry models, since JSJ makes them slippery...

kungfujew wrote:

Joey wrote:Out of interest, you ever played against a universal FNP army?

Actually, my foot guard blob army has played many times against a variety of Decent of Angels/ regular deployed blood angels and chaos nurgle marines.

My highest proportion of wins is against them. My foot blob guard table/solidly crushed them almost every time (95%+). I don't think small elite armies are a problem for blob guard, even with feel no pain. Almost everyone who plays successful guard of any fashion will tell you that the main killing power comes from endless numbers of lasguns.

A FNP MEQ requires 2*3*3*2 shots to kill, or 32 shots. That is at best ten men with FRFSRF. To kill one man.
Plasma vets rapid-firing would get 6 shots, 4 hits, 3.3 wounds, 2.5 dead with FOMT, plus the lasguns for another 0.4.
So even a full blob that was entirely within 12" of the enemy, AND managed to get FRFSRF would only get 3 kills against that 10 man assault squad with a Priest and Reclesiarch. Stick in another 1.25 for if they have plasma guns. Still pretty anaemic.

Fixed. Also congratulations, your 400 points just wiped out a ~200 point unit and will get annihilated next turn, you must be so proud

Yeah they get annihilated. Of course. By thin air maybe. You know sometimes it is important to know the game... 400p spent to kill 200p in one turn is a good investment. If my 2000p army would be able to kill 1000p a turn, I would be quite good...

I can't help it, if some people can't play transport based armies and some people use unbalanced terrain. But ymmv. If you like to play on open field with no LOS-blocking terrain, I have no problem with that. But don't expect that to be balanced. If there are LOS blocking terrain pieces I am able to hide rhinos pretty easily from immobile long range anti tank weaponry.

A little more qualified arguments would be nice. Fact is, a blob is tough, I know that. If it focusses on one target, it is hard to stop. But it can not adapt to new situations pretty well except for just surviving. And on the defense the cc-power is not very good.

Saying that blobs suck because dedicated assualt troops can win against them is like saying chimeras suck because dedicated anti tank wipes them.

-Nazdreg- wrote:
I can't help it, if some people can't play transport based armies and some people use unbalanced terrain. But ymmv. If you like to play on open field with no LOS-blocking terrain, I have no problem with that. But don't expect that to be balanced. If there are LOS blocking terrain pieces I am able to hide rhinos pretty easily from immobile long range anti tank weaponry.

Yeah, i've had many people try this, in practice it isn't as easy, and is a losing proposition unless somehow you have enough firepower to outshoot infantry guard in cover. Tau(?) and GK stormbolter spam can do this I guess, but I haven't seen it.

The only real weakness that infantry guard have are force concentration, if the other guy has a bunch of flamers or blast template weapons you need to spread out a bit, which means you suffer against armies like BA that can focus one flank down and are fast enough that you don't get much time to readjust. I counter this by using al'harim's meltagun circus to power down a flank on turn 2-3 (generally) It isn't fool proof, but the threat of nearly 20 meltas showing up on a board edge generally keeps people away from them.

a 400 point unit killing a 200 point unit, is again, stupid. your entire army is not going to be 400pt deathstars that can all do their job at the same time.. and it is extremely common to have to throw a squad/blob into the grinder to slow it down or just have the unit move up, stand 1" away and FRSRF to soak the inevitable assault and prevent you from making much forward progress. Properly played you'd be eating ~60-90 lasguns, a bunch of lascannon and autocannon/melta fire, and only make maybe 2-3 inches of forward progress a turn after you eat squad after squad. The entire game can be a game of attrition as you attempt to grind your way to my objective(s) while the outflanking melta circus tries to grind to yours. In a tourney situation, which is where infantry guard shine, you accept this, because the other guy is probably taking about 1/4 or so of his points in useless anti-tank (against you) you sometimes have to sac more than a units point value to bring it down, it happens, not a biggie.

points-hammer mid game "omg is xyz going to pay for itself?!" is moronic and people that practice it don't win tourneys.

points-hammer mid game "omg is xyz going to pay for itself?!" is moronic and people that practice it don't win tourneys.

Thats true.

but the threat of nearly 20 meltas showing up on a board edge generally keeps people away from them.

Depends on the army. An aggressive army would make an all out attack at the centre to make use of your lack of men there. Then they would have taken the center and would wait for als reinforcements to crush them too. A defensive army would still refuse flank and shield the other flank with cheap skirmishers. An elite army will keep in the middle and hidden maybe sniping out some HWS and play for draw. A sneaky army will stay all in reserve and the flank effect would be nullified. Then they would concentrate on one part of your army.

a 400 point unit killing a 200 point unit, is again, stupid

This per se statement is stupid as well. It all depends on the situation. If I can kill 200p in one turn using 400p of force without the risk of a counter, I will do. If I am at the risk of a counter, I will not. And given I have to assault 21 men, most likely I will find a spot, from where to assault, where a counter isn't possible. Especially if I have a mobile supporting wall at my disposal.

your entire army is not going to be 400pt deathstars that can all do their job at the same time..

Yes 20 tacs is a deathstar... oO You don't have all blobs present at every spot of the table as well...

The entire game can be a game of attrition as you attempt to grind your way to my objective(s) while the outflanking melta circus tries to grind to yours. In a tourney situation, which is where infantry guard shine, you accept this, because the other guy is probably taking about 1/4 or so of his points in useless anti-tank (against you) you sometimes have to sac more than a units point value to bring it down, it happens, not a biggie.

depends on the size of the defensive part of the blob guard. (If defensive part is bigger, I would wait for the flankers and kill them first to secure the draw, if the defensive part is smaller, I would attack immediately with full force to prevent them from grinding at all while trying to avoid the flankers impact) Normally it is better to focus against infantry guard. To expose forces to both elements of your army would be uncautious. Anti tank isnt useless, because you have HWS. Why is infantry guard better on tournaments than for fun games? It is a drawish army that is not going to score high. It is hard to wipe out, but thats worthless if you are not a killer army.

No one really uses hws for that reason, i take my heavy weapons in 20 man shooting blobs. The only time i would even consider hws is if it was a very high point game and i am out of infantry room.

Forcing you from board edges make things dicey, as then youll have limited options on how to take on the army peice by peice.

Infantry guard work best in tourneys since many dont have viable anti horde options expecting standard mechspam.

20 tac marines isnt a deathstar, you are right, its just about every man a sane player would bring running into a situation theyll probably be outnumbeted 4 or 5 to one.

Joey wrote:

For the record a 21-man blob (165 points) being charged by 10 striking scorpians (160 points) will take 4.4 casualties from shooting, then be charged for 31 attacks, 20 hits, 13 wounds( 17 with doom), 8.6 dead (11 with doom). That's 13 dead in one turn. Guard strike back with 9 PW attacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 dead. The normal guys also do 5 attacks, 2.5 hit, 1.25 wound, 0.4 failed armour saves, that's 2.6 dead in total.
The turn after gives 15 attacks, 10 hits, 6.6 wounds, 4.4 dead. And if either of those rounds the blob was Doomed (pretty likely), they're dead.
You might be satisfied with a 3:1 casualty ratio in your enemy's favour, I am not.

scorpians have 3 attacks base, 4 on the charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joey wrote:
The vanguards don't wipe out the blob, they hold them in place while other stuff moves around/claims objectives/charges them.
A 21-man blob is fine unless you plan on doing something, anything with it. It can't shoot anything, it can't melée anything. All it will do is die.
Striking scorpians have 3+ armour save and strike at S4 with 3 attacks (iirc) on the charge. With 3s to hit, 3s to wound, and re-rollable armour saves. Yes, they will mulch blobs just fine.

scorpians have 3 attacks base, 4 on the charge.

Joey wrote:As mentioned above, the chance of a chimera being wrecked or exploded from two BS 4 meltaguns is 0.6 (Unless there is something in the codex that improves this, in which case fair enough). Either way, the chance of me deploying my vets within charge range of your troops is nil.

The chance of you deploying within charge range of my squad is nil? what kind of delusional world do you live in?

Joey wrote:Best case (for me) I'm wrecked and I deploy out the back, easily >6" away from the troops that shot the transport.

...If I fire in your rear armor I'd like to see you deploy "out the back" and into the brawl. You seem to think I am incapable of firing from any point near your hatch

Joey wrote:Worst case I deploy in a crater, still probably 6" away but either way you'll need a difficult terrain test.

What? It just went from "nil" to "probably you wont make the difficult terrain test"?
Good sir! this "nil" chance idea that you are putting forward is starting to appear fault!

Joey wrote:Even if you do charge and liquidise them, by some miricle. Thankfully I play mech, so next turn you're going to be getting a face full of plasma guns from all across the line.
Hell sometimes the best thing that can happen is duping my opponent into thinking that killing my men is important, since 99% of the time it means they're in prime range of the rest of my chaps.

Ha Ha Ha, My army is one MEQ unit that just charged you? You don't think the line of plasma doesn't have anything to shoot at asides from that one squad? If one unit has made it, what makes you think the rest didn't make it?

You really are a special character, you are

Joey wrote:I look foward to playing against the marine/chaos player who runs his unmeched infantry right up to my lines. Seriously.
Plasma vets have the MEQ killing power that blobs lack completely. .

Ok I'll play DOA BA. Since I do recall you making a thread, seemingly in tears (although you might have just been really stoned) because your guard kept getting slaughtered. In very one sided battles.

By unmeched infantry

Oh, the amusement!
Then go play with some foot templars


aaaand on a small note- blobs have MEQ killing power in melee that the Vets lack completely. The Vets have a MEQ killing power that the blob cannot match (not lack completely. See the difference?). The blobs can soak up more damage than the vets. They are apples and oranges.

Dont forget: blobs dont asplode themselves with plasma overheat burns!

Jihallah wrote:

Joey wrote:As mentioned above, the chance of a chimera being wrecked or exploded from two BS 4 meltaguns is 0.6 (Unless there is something in the codex that improves this, in which case fair enough). Either way, the chance of me deploying my vets within charge range of your troops is nil.

The chance of you deploying within charge range of my squad is nil? what kind of delusional world do you live in?

Joey wrote:Best case (for me) I'm wrecked and I deploy out the back, easily >6" away from the troops that shot the transport.

...If I fire in your rear armor I'd like to see you deploy "out the back" and into the brawl. You seem to think I am incapable of firing from any point near your hatch

Joey wrote:Worst case I deploy in a crater, still probably 6" away but either way you'll need a difficult terrain test.

What? It just went from "nil" to "probably you wont make the difficult terrain test"?
Good sir! this "nil" chance idea that you are putting forward is starting to appear fault!

Joey wrote:Even if you do charge and liquidise them, by some miricle. Thankfully I play mech, so next turn you're going to be getting a face full of plasma guns from all across the line.
Hell sometimes the best thing that can happen is duping my opponent into thinking that killing my men is important, since 99% of the time it means they're in prime range of the rest of my chaps.

Ha Ha Ha, My army is one MEQ unit that just charged you? You don't think the line of plasma doesn't have anything to shoot at asides from that one squad? If one unit has made it, what makes you think the rest didn't make it?

You really are a special character, you are

Joey wrote:I look foward to playing against the marine/chaos player who runs his unmeched infantry right up to my lines. Seriously.
Plasma vets have the MEQ killing power that blobs lack completely. .

Ok I'll play DOA BA. Since I do recall you making a thread, seemingly in tears (although you might have just been really stoned) because your guard kept getting slaughtered. In very one sided battles.

By unmeched infantry

Oh, the amusement!
Then go play with some foot templars


aaaand on a small note- blobs have MEQ killing power in melee that the Vets lack completely. The Vets have a MEQ killing power that the blob cannot match (not lack completely. See the difference?). The blobs can soak up more damage than the vets. They are apples and oranges.

Let me know how you use BS 3 lasguns to kill FNP MEQs. Seriously.
5/6 razors with assault squads and attached priests giving FNP bubbles, all moving 18" turn 1 and deploying smoke, then turn 2 getting out and charging with an 18" threat range. You'll struggle to pop more than 1 or two of those transports, and even if you do there'll still be 5 more ready to go, and the squad that's transport you popped can still assault anyway. It's unlikely your lasguns will get to shoot at all before they're assaulted.
Your lascannons/heavy support will be able to snipe at BA's preditors but that's pretty much it.
Oh and that outflanking Baal will be showing up too. Enjoy that flame template.

The real strength of the power blob is in close combat. That's a lot of attacks that will be ignoring armour saves AND ignoring FNP saves.
Combine three squads and you have as many plasma shots as a vet squad, whilst being a lot more durable with great assault potential.
And why are all these examples involving an army against a single blob? Some very strange games goin on out here...

No because an opponent isn't going to charge within bailing distance of another blob - as long as he's 12" away from them they can't do anything. Actually they can't anyway since the IG will have to defenders react, essentially mobbing the assaulters and preventing a counter assault.
20 assault troops on the charge, spread out over two squads with a PW on each sargent, is 54 normal attacks, 9 PW ones. That's 36 hits, 30 wounds, 20 dead after armour saves, the PWs give 6 hits, 5 dead. 25 of your blob are now dead from the charge. If there is a chaplain/reclesiarch in EITHER of those squads, the entire blob is dead.
On average you will kill TWO in return. Apparently that justifies these guys.
Oh and, even better, the assault squad will finish you off at the bottom of their turn, meaning you can't shoot them at all, and they can then move/assault in their turn.

Again, in that situation id sac the commisar, leaving the squad to be wiped, since you will likely consolidate away to make useof you mobility, youll probably only get snagged by one more blob, but the torrent of close range firepower combined with the assault, will take its toll, esp if there are wildcards like a screened leman, marbo, or valk demo sws in the cards.
The important thing heres is it seems that you are dedicating a large majority of your army, or all of it, to that one good push.
A pbs pinning one of your squads, rough rider counterassault, good close range shooting, you are assuming alot will go your way for the rest of the game, or ignoring it, while focusing on one inevitable assault.
Fnp ba is a tough fight sometimes but it is apparent you havent played a good guard player.

Joey wrote:
Let me know how you use BS 3 lasguns to kill FNP MEQs. Seriously.

Let me know where I mentioned lasguns as being a killed of FNP MEQs?
But since you seem confused- You need to roll a 4+ to hit. Since they are T4 and you are S3, you then need a 5+ to wound. Then they get their armor save of 3+ and then a 4+ reroll for the FNP USR
And that is how a lasgun will kill a FNP MEQ Model
It's even harder when they are plague marines

Joey wrote:5/6 razors with assault squads and attached priests giving FNP bubbles, all moving 18" turn 1 and deploying smoke, then turn 2 getting out and charging with an 18" threat range. You'll struggle to pop more than 1 or two of those transports, and even if you do there'll still be 5 more ready to go, and the squad that's transport you popped can still assault anyway. It's unlikely your lasguns will get to shoot at all before they're assaulted.
Your lascannons/heavy support will be able to snipe at BA's preditors but that's pretty much it.
Oh and that outflanking Baal will be showing up too. Enjoy that flame template.

I love your ability to read my posts. Put down the bong mate, try and use that brain for things outside the pretty colors k?

Jihallah wrote:
Ok I'll play DOA BA. Since I do recall you making a thread, seemingly in tears because your guard kept getting slaughtered. In very one sided battles.

By unmeched infantry.

In case your still on the pipe, I'll make it colorful for you

Jihallah wrote:DOA BA.

Jihallah wrote:DOA BA.

Jihallah wrote:DOA BA.

"yeah, you might kill my blob, but the rest of my army will gut you!"

Because warhammer is one unit vs an army. What a special world you live in joey

No one really uses hws for that reason, i take my heavy weapons in 20 man shooting blobs. The only time i would even consider hws is if it was a very high point game and i am out of infantry room.

Forcing you from board edges make things dicey, as then youll have limited options on how to take on the army peice by peice.

Infantry guard work best in tourneys since many dont have viable anti horde options expecting standard mechspam.

20 tac marines isnt a deathstar, you are right, its just about every man a sane player would bring running into a situation theyll probably be outnumbeted 4 or 5 to one.

Ah ok I see where you come from. Apparently we have a different metagame then. Your opponents seem to play almost only mech-MSU? Then I can understand why you insist on the blob armys power.
However here a good tournament army must be able to deal with 180 boyz as well as with Mech-MSU or Tyranid Tervigon lists.
In my example (I play hybrid guard) I need foot support for selective charges, I need at least one mobile multiple flamer unit, I need a source for reliable AP2, I need anti transport weapons. Not in masses, but with quality and mobility.

But if you only face Anti-Mech-MSU lists, the logical way to play is of course infantry.

No not all mech msu, but the few mech lists are very strong. I still think all infantry, or light mech mixed is a very strong counter meta choice

Have we had a clear answer yet on how blobs can deal with MSU mech MEQ (the overwealming majority of armies out there)?
Pretty sure we haven't.

Furioso Spam BA.

/thread

Have we had a clear answer yet on how blobs can deal with MSU mech MEQ

I think the answer is pretty easy. They win. This is the kind of army they are designed for.

@Grundz

I still think all infantry, or light mech mixed is a very strong counter meta choice

light mech mixed is the general build here. 2 Manticores, executioner, 3 vendettas, ccs, one platoon and the rest is veterans. At least that is what our most famous guy plays. Infantry only isn't seen at all here. That doesnt mean its bad, but it means our meta is another one. Because I wouldnt say that infantry guard would kill our meta here.