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dogma wrote:I still don't see it. Guided munitions are likely to far outstrip anything battle armor might be capable of.

You can't fire guided munitions into a residential block. But you can send in someone wearing a mech suit.

azazel the cat wrote:
You can't fire guided munitions into a residential block. But you can send in someone wearing a mech suit.

Provided it isn't so heavy that it falls through the floor, or so expensive that its use is cost prohibitive relative to equally effective soldiers using current tech.

azazel the cat wrote:
You can't fire guided munitions into a residential block. But you can send in someone wearing a mech suit.

But for the price of one mechanised suit that may or may not be too big/heavy to fit, you could have an entire team of well trained professionals that would do the same job faster.

I'm coming down on the side of logistics here.
Look at the powerloader in Aliens.
Ideal for use as a walking forklift truck.
Storming a building?
The reduced agility and reaction speed would make it a liability, and if it gets damaged/pops a connector/bursts a hose, the suit is immobilised and useless.
It's a nice idea, but it (in my opinion) would not work in a combat role.

Exalted Pariah wrote:

Actually Dragon armor wasn't adopted because its alot heavier than the current "intercepter" armor, its added bulk made moving out of vehicles(say, that caught fire after being blow over by an IED) dangerously difficult and the army found that under prolonged desert heat the disks would denature and fall off the vest.
..

I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that a load of the generals and special forces out in Afghan were wearing the Dragon stuff? I think that speaks volumes.

Pacific wrote:

Exalted Pariah wrote:

Actually Dragon armor wasn't adopted because its alot heavier than the current "intercepter" armor, its added bulk made moving out of vehicles(say, that caught fire after being blow over by an IED) dangerously difficult and the army found that under prolonged desert heat the disks would denature and fall off the vest.
..

I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that a load of the generals and special forces out in Afghan were wearing the Dragon stuff? I think that speaks volumes.

If so, they weren't "issued" and are likely privately bought by the individual in question.

I saw that Dragon skin on Future Weapons... Took one hell of a beating.

Exoskeletons will get much use in a logistical role. Imagine, for example, the potential uses for one on an aircraft carrier - ordinance loading, firefighting and damage control, even assisting with UNREP operations. Places where power sources and/or refueling facilities are plentiful will see them put to good use.

Power armor - that is, an exoskeleton protects it's wearer with armor that is at least as capable as level IV body armor - is trickier. First, you need a power source that is light and compact enough to realistically fit onto the human form, with sufficient endurance to make the effort of fielding one worthwhile. It needs to be demonstrably more capable than an individual without power armor - if it can't do that, it's not even worth contemplating. It needs to be affordable - if it costs as much as a B-2, then it will never be risked on the battlefield. And it needs to be weaponized - able to withstand the rigors of the modern battlefield and the abuses even the most careful user would inflict under those conditions. The suit is no good if it breaks the first time the soldier dives for cover from an artillery barrage, for example.

Can that be done? Not right now. Will it be done? Possibly. If there is sufficient need.

America is in a position where doing it might become a 'do or die' proposition. Economically we depend heavily on being able to influence events in the Mideast by projecting force. If we couldn't do that, there's a pretty good chance the who area would go to war once a decade - which would make our current oil prices seem cheap in comparison. But we also have a popular counter-pressure to not risk the lives of our troops - indeed, there are many that see the death of even ONE soldier to be too high a price to pay for anything. We may well need - not want, NEED - to develop this technology to maintian access to affordable resources.

OR we could just get off this rock and exploit the resources available in space...

I magine an exo-suit or two would be very helpful in building colonies on a planet or moon....

Corpsesarefun wrote:

Lone Cat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:That's not "power armor".

That's an exoskeleton. The exoskeletons currently being developed are not intended to "protect" the operator, they're intended to increase the combat effectiveness of the operator by increasing the amount of equipment they can carry.

wait! are you saying that the exosuit thing designed for offensive rather than defensive? i.e. wearer may carry a set of beltfed gatling gun with 2,000+ ammo ?! while the body armor itself remains either FlaK armor or carapace armor. correct?

No it increases the amount of equipment you can carry, lets you have a bigger backpack.

Cover it in really heavy plating. Problem solved!

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:the most practical form of exo-skeletal armor is in logistics operations IMHO. A sailor who can lift a 500 lb. bomb by himself onto a wing mount of an FA-18 hornet sitting on the deck of a carrier means fewer sailors need to be on deck (a very hazardous place to be). Therefore, you can induct fewer sailors into the Navy. Since personnel costs are by far the biggest expense in any armed force, this *may* actually reduce overall costs - depending on what the final product looks like.

Also, on the point of mounting Mini Guns, they have a rate of fire between 2000 and 6000 rounds/min.
2000 rounds (without the ammo box, feed belts, and links) would weigh 51kg, the gun, 30kg
So for two miniguns, a couple of thousand rounds each, and the feed equipment and batteries for running it, you're probably looking at an all up equipment weight of around 300kg
That's before the weight of any armour, (probably another 30kg) the exosuit itself, and the operator.
I'd be surprised if it weighed less than 5-600kg.

There would be so many places you couldn't take that, it wouldn't be worth having.

marv335 wrote:Also, on the point of mounting Mini Guns, they have a rate of fire between 2000 and 6000 pounds/min.
2000 rounds (without the ammo box, feed belts, and links) would weigh 51kg, the gun, 30kg
So for two miniguns, a couple of thousand rounds each, and the feed equipment and batteries for running it, you're probably looking at an all up equipment weight of around 300kg
That's before the weight of any armour, (probably another 30kg) the exosuit itself, and the operator.
I'd be surprised if it weighed less than 5-600kg.

There would be so many places you couldn't take that, it wouldn't be worth having.

Buzzkill...

marv335 wrote:Also, on the point of mounting Mini Guns, they have a rate of fire between 2000 and 6000 pounds/min.
2000 rounds (without the ammo box, feed belts, and links) would weigh 51kg, the gun, 30kg
So for two miniguns, a couple of thousand rounds each, and the feed equipment and batteries for running it, you're probably looking at an all up equipment weight of around 300kg
That's before the weight of any armour, (probably another 30kg) the exosuit itself, and the operator.
I'd be surprised if it weighed less than 5-600kg.

There would be so many places you couldn't take that, it wouldn't be worth having.

Plus - With a rate of fire like that - 2000 rounds may not even be enough

2000 rounds was the number the OP gave.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Dragon Skin is down-right proven to save lives, and doesn't compromise the integrity of the vest when shot.

In pristine laboratory conditions yes.

When hot (at the level of, say, Iraq and Afghanistan), or when wet, or when oily, etc, it was essentially worse than wearing nothing at all; oftentimes not even able to take a single hit.

Lone Cat wrote:
^ An Uke in power armor =^.^=

That is not power armor.

This is power armor:

DeathReaper wrote:This is power armor:

Alright, everyone else is thinking it, I'm just saying it.

Trojan-MAAAAAAAN!

But that is about as "far" as Power Armor goes, I think. Most likely something the Spartans from Halo wear, but probably not anything like Termies.

Vulcan wrote:Exoskeletons will get much use in a logistical role. Imagine, for example, the potential uses for one on an aircraft carrier - ordinance loading, firefighting and damage control, even assisting with UNREP operations. Places where power sources and/or refueling facilities are plentiful will see them put to good use.

Absolutely, though it is, as always, comparative. Do exoskeletons provide enough of an improvement to justify the cost of development? I don't have an answer, of course, but there is certainly enough merit to the idea to justify exploration.

Vulcan wrote:
Can that be done? Not right now. Will it be done? Possibly. If there is sufficient need.

Don't forget weight. Tanks work because their weight is spread across a fairly wide footprint. Power armor has no such advantage.

Although thankfully power armor should also be smaller and weighs less than most tanks, so its effect should be smaller.

Not like we're talking about 'mechas here.

DeathReaper wrote:

Lone Cat wrote:
^ An Uke in power armor =^.^=

That is not power armor.

This is power armor:

He appears to have left the neck exposed. Could cause problems.

Pacific wrote:

Exalted Pariah wrote:Actually Dragon armor wasn't adopted because its alot heavier than the current "intercepter" armor, its added bulk made moving out of vehicles(say, that caught fire after being blow over by an IED) dangerously difficult and the army found that under prolonged desert heat the disks would denature and fall off the vest.
..

I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that a load of the generals and special forces out in Afghan were wearing the Dragon stuff? I think that speaks volumes.

Yeah, I don't know about the "heavier" claim. An IOTV is like 9 pounds with soft armor, and 36 Lbs with SAPI plates. That's a lot of weight. Dragon Skin takes plates out of the equation, and unless the disks are lead (which I don't think they are), I can't imagine it being too much heavier.

I'm not sure about how the disks perform under Iraqistan conditions, but I can imagine it's not too far out to assume that they'd have problems. Everything has problems in the desert though.. Like optics, for example. IIRC, a police department shot up a previously used Dragon Skin level III vest (not the highest, mind you) and there wasn't a single penetration. They shot a couple dozen AK rounds at it, plus a bunch of 9mm pistol rounds, and it was beat to crap, but nothing penetrated. I could be wrong though.

The discs are ceramics, actually. I've seen conflicting information, but from what I can tell A basic vest weighed 10 pounds for a ten inch coverage area (the edges of the vest do NOT protect the wearer).

Melissia wrote:The discs are ceramics, actually. I've seen conflicting information, but from what I can tell A basic vest weighed 10 pounds for a ten inch coverage area (the edges of the vest do NOT protect the wearer).

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin/

I'm not necessarily advocating that the military adopt Dragon Skin, but I think if you have the cash, and work in a profession where you might come under fire, why take any chances? It's much too expensive for the military.... but if a hundred thousand soldiers front line soldiers received the armor, it would be less than an F-35

Unless they're deployed in an area where the armor is useless due to not functioning correctly(which is...well, kinda silly when we're talking about a ballistic vest).

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/files/dragon_skin_release_000121may07.pdf

• Project Manager, Soldier Equipment (PM SEQ) conducted testing of
Pinnacle Armor’s SOV 3000™ Body Armor Vest (Dragon Skin) from
16 -19 May at H. P. White labs near APG. (HP White is the National
Institute of Justice certified ballistics lab used to test Army Body Armor)

• Since the inception of the IBA program in 1999, Pinnacle Armor has
never responded to a full and open competition.

• Test was conducted using Enhanced Small Arms Protective Inserts
(ESAPI) and Enhanced Side Ballistic Inserts (ESBI) First Article Test
protocols.

• Prior to fielding, ALL ESAPI designs must pass a robust FAT protocol
under a variety of environmental conditions including high (+160.0 F)
and low (-60.0 F) temperature, diesel fuel, oil, and saltwater immersion,
and a 14 hour temperature cycle from -25.0 F to +120.0 F.

• Pinnacle SOV 3000 level IV Dragon Skin suffered catastrophic failure of
the ceramic disc containment grid adhesive at -60.0 F, 120.0 F and 160.0 F.

• SOV 3000 design is sensitive to extreme temperatures and failed to
maintain ballistic integrity at temperatures below summer ambient in OIF.

• This failure mode caused discs to delaminate and accumulate in the lower
portion of the armor panel, thus resulting in exposing the spine, vital
organs, and critical blood vessels to lesser ballistic threats.

• Pinnacle SOV 3000 level IV Dragon Skin vests suffered 13 first or second
shot complete penetrations, failing 4 of 8 initial subtests with ESAPI
threat baseline 7.62 x 63mm APM2 Armor Piercing (AP) ammunition.

Dragon skin does not meet required protection standards.

This test compared the 28 pound Interceptor size L to the 47.5 pound Pinnacle SOV size XL armor. The Interceptor came out on top every time. Pinnacle likes to talk a good game, but their armor isn't really that good.

Dragon Skin became popular as a direct result of an episode of Future Weapons. Unfortunately the military has been dealing with the fallout of a TV show for a long time as Dragon Skin is an overpriced piece of crap that doesn't even work under combat conditions as evidence by tests to the effect that no one pays attention to but worked marvelously on a TV show watched by millions. The producer of Dragon Skin has waged a PR campaign for a long time, blaming the military for not wanting to pay the cost of the armor to save soldier's lives while playing down the fact their armor doesn't work.

Melissia wrote:Although thankfully power armor should also be smaller and weighs less than most tanks, so its effect should be smaller.

Not like we're talking about 'mechas here.

Well, when considering pressure gross weight doesn't really matter. If I dropped a ton of popcorn on my floor, it would probably hold, if I dropped a ton a steel in the form of my foot, it probably wouldn't.

That's been my point from the beginning. Power armor might have a use in urban warfare, but in order to have such a use it has to outclass, and under cost, robots and basic infantry. I don't see it happening. Tanks drive down streets, infantry case buildings, lead by robots; not space for power armor there.

Melissia wrote:
• Pinnacle SOV 3000 level IV Dragon Skin suffered catastrophic failure of
the ceramic disc containment grid adhesive at -600 F, 1200 F and 1600 F.

• SOV 3000 design is sensitive to extreme temperatures and failed to
maintain ballistic integrity at temperatures below summer ambient in OIF.

• This failure mode caused discs to delaminate and accumulate in the lower
portion of the armor panel, thus resulting in exposing the spine, vital
organs, and critical blood vessels to lesser ballistic threats.

• Pinnacle SOV 3000 level IV Dragon Skin vests suffered 13 first or second
shot complete penetrations, failing 4 of 8 initial subtests with ESAPI
threat baseline 7.62 x 63mm APM2 Armor Piercing (AP) ammunition.

Dragon skin does not meet required protection standards.

This test compared the 28 pound Interceptor size L to the 47.5 pound Pinnacle SOV size XL armor.

LordofHats wrote:The producer of Dragon Skin has waged a PR campaign for a long time, blaming the military for not wanting to pay the cost of the armor to save soldier's lives while playing down the fact their armor doesn't work.

Wait, my armor that functions on the principle of lamellar doesn't work when people shoot up?

Samus_aran115 wrote:There's a huge difference between L and XL, unless pinnacle's measurements are off.

Actually bother reading the article I posted.

Note, due to difference in sizing “Pinnacle SOV 3000” body armor extra large is equivalent to “Interceptor Body Armor” large in size and fit.

They were also roughly equivalent in coverage. If you've ever gone shopping for clothes and tried on different clothes of the same size but from different brands, you'd understand this concept

Finally, I should note to you that when I copy pasted it from the pdf, the numbersl ost their decimals. The tests ranged from -60 degrees Fahrenheit (-60.0) to 160 degrees Fahrenheit (160.0), not -600 to 1600.