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TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

White Ninja wrote:I love the pred body but as a guard player I cant help but feel like its a rip off. Not sure how I feel about the apothecary.

lol, like how the guard use to rip off land speeders, rhinos, and land raiders?

We didn't rip them off. It just turns out it is heresy for IG to ride jet bikes, and once a Rhino gets painted in camo, they get lost in the background.

zedmeister wrote:Nice! Now where's that avenger?

Bring on the Avenger!!!

All looks great as usual. I really, really wanna redo my old marines as a whole pre-heresy army with all this FW stuff.. I just wish I had the time and cash :(

Off to buy another powerball ticket......

Techno one-eyed marines...
So 90's

These apothecaries look incredible... I think I know who's going to be the stand in Captain for one of my companies

Pyriel- wrote:To bad the pred is overcosted, both points and money wise since it looks really good.

And you'd expect otherwise from FW because???

Ive always said i prefer it when FW things are over costed in points.

Makes it a hell of a lot easier to get people to let you play em.

Aw man. I almost wish I wasn't a Chaos player, so I could use thows apothecaries. They look amazing.

*Keeps fingers crossed for the day Forgeworld gives Slaanesh CSM love*

Pyriel- wrote:

Also the apots look awesome but again, worthless on the tabletop thanks to their rules.

Sanguinary Priests?
They're not worthless...

Pyriel- wrote:To bad the pred is overcosted, both points and money wise since it looks really good.

Also the apots look awesome but again, worthless on the tabletop thanks to their rules.

Pred with heavy bolters is only 50 points more than a standard autocannon pred with heavy bolters. 50 points to go from str 7 ap 4 heavy 2 to str 7 ap 2 heavy 3 blast. Hrm yeah I think thats a fair trade.

Apothecaries man, worthless? Vanilla marines you get one with a command squad and they work like vanguard marines. Blood angels they're one of the most MUST HAVE units in the book. Look at FW too, if you take the current commander cullin you get to replace every tac sgt with an apothecary for free. That's a lot of feel no pain to spread around.

But hey, you may play space wolves or Dark Angels or Black Templars or Grey Knights and get less mileage out of your apothecaries so to each his own. Wait do templars even get apothecaries anymore?

Staring at the FW releases I'd say rumors of Dark Angels are getting further and further away. Ages ago there were rumors of a plasma pred for the next DA codex, now with a FW version that seems further away. Guess we just have to wait for the May WD to tell us. Personally I'm still hoping for templar or tau revamp.

Staring at the FW releases I'd say rumors of Dark Angels are getting further and further away. Ages ago there were rumors of a plasma pred for the next DA codex, now with a FW version that seems further away. Guess we just have to wait for the May WD to tell us. Personally I'm still hoping for templar or tau revamp.

i'm just thankful that they came out with a plasma pred for forgeworld first. I'd still prefer not to be the "All Plasma! All the TIME!" DA type army.

Would love to see the plasma pred with plasma cannons or guns for the sponsons

carabine wrote:
Staring at the FW releases I'd say rumors of Dark Angels are getting further and further away. Ages ago there were rumors of a plasma pred for the next DA codex, now with a FW version that seems further away. Guess we just have to wait for the May WD to tell us. Personally I'm still hoping for templar or tau revamp.

Erm, not to rain on your parade or anything...

Forge World releasing something does not mean that Games Workshop will not. This, mind you, is not a "current" unit. This is something which will likely be released in an Imperial Armour: Apocalypse book down the road and likely IA12 after that.

I could still see a DA plasma pred, it would just be Mk IV style (ie current)

carabine wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:To bad the pred is overcosted, both points and money wise since it looks really good.

Also the apots look awesome but again, worthless on the tabletop thanks to their rules.

Pred with heavy bolters is only 50 points more than a standard autocannon pred with heavy bolters. 50 points to go from str 7 ap 4 heavy 2 to str 7 ap 2 heavy 3 blast. Hrm yeah I think thats a fair trade.
...

I think where it becomes excessively overpriced is upgrading to the Conversion beamer... you're already paying 65pts for the plasma destructor, and paying 15 more for the Conversion beamer means you're paying 80pts for that weapon... that might be a justified price if the weapon didn't have two distinct disadvantages attached to it: the diminishing effectiveness at close range and the targeting calibration. The Contemptor can take the same weapon for just 35pts.

Yeah thats stupidly priced. Although i can never resist a good conversion beamer, playing apoc a lot means i get more use out of them than most though.

Kanluwen wrote:

carabine wrote:
Staring at the FW releases I'd say rumors of Dark Angels are getting further and further away. Ages ago there were rumors of a plasma pred for the next DA codex, now with a FW version that seems further away. Guess we just have to wait for the May WD to tell us. Personally I'm still hoping for templar or tau revamp.

Erm, not to rain on your parade or anything...

Forge World releasing something does not mean that Games Workshop will not. This, mind you, is not a "current" unit. This is something which will likely be released in an Imperial Armour: Apocalypse book down the road and likely IA12 after that.

Now I didn't say that they wouldn't, I said it seems further away. My money is on this being in IA 12 in a few months. While FW and GW aren't beholden to each other they don't step on toes that often.

Fact is you can pretty much draw a graph for this, the likely hood of fw producing a kit is inversely proportional to the likely hood that GW will produce the same kit.

Addendum to this graph is exceptions include GW directly lifting a FW kit.

aka_mythos wrote:I think where it becomes excessively overpriced is upgrading to the Conversion beamer... you're already paying 65pts for the plasma destructor, and paying 15 more for the Conversion beamer means you're paying 80pts for that weapon... that might be a justified price if the weapon didn't have two distinct disadvantages attached to it: the diminishing effectiveness at close range and the targeting calibration. The Contemptor can take the same weapon for just 35pts.

Agreed, though I've never been able to justify using a conversion beamer period. I'm more of a solid use guy, and the beamer just introduces another variable that can't be counted on.

Yeah but the appeal of this kit is its pre heresy look imo. They threw on the plasma turret for the lulz.

Love the apothocaries. Will probably pick the up for my BA. Just need to find a way to replace those chainswords with power swords.

carabine wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

carabine wrote:
Staring at the FW releases I'd say rumors of Dark Angels are getting further and further away. Ages ago there were rumors of a plasma pred for the next DA codex, now with a FW version that seems further away. Guess we just have to wait for the May WD to tell us. Personally I'm still hoping for templar or tau revamp.

Erm, not to rain on your parade or anything...

Forge World releasing something does not mean that Games Workshop will not. This, mind you, is not a "current" unit. This is something which will likely be released in an Imperial Armour: Apocalypse book down the road and likely IA12 after that.

Now I didn't say that they wouldn't, I said it seems further away. My money is on this being in IA 12 in a few months. While FW and GW aren't beholden to each other they don't step on toes that often.

Fact is you can pretty much draw a graph for this, the likely hood of fw producing a kit is inversely proportional to the likely hood that GW will produce the same kit.

Addendum to this graph is exceptions include GW directly lifting a FW kit.

That's not even true.

The likelihood of FW producing a kit is not "inversely proportional to the likelihood that GW will produce the same kit" in any way, shape, or form.

FW and the GW studio do not collaborate.

carabine wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think where it becomes excessively overpriced is upgrading to the Conversion beamer... you're already paying 65pts for the plasma destructor, and paying 15 more for the Conversion beamer means you're paying 80pts for that weapon... that might be a justified price if the weapon didn't have two distinct disadvantages attached to it: the diminishing effectiveness at close range and the targeting calibration. The Contemptor can take the same weapon for just 35pts.

Agreed, though I've never been able to justify using a conversion beamer period. I'm more of a solid use guy, and the beamer just introduces another variable that can't be counted on.

I think it makes sense on a Techpriest/MotF... its a weapons that demands mobility and/or an ability to hide to get enough use to be worthwhile. The contemptor can at least off set that need by virtue of its improved survivability and the option for taking missile pods.

Kanluwen wrote:That's not even true.

The likelihood of FW producing a kit is not "inversely proportional to the likelihood that GW will produce the same kit" in any way, shape, or form.

FW and the GW studio do not collaborate.

Yes but it's a relatively small community of guys in Nottingham. The fact that guys from other companies sometimes know what GW are doing (and visa versa) makes it almost certain that each side of the GW coin will know what they have coming further down the line.

And there are some orders from up top - the FW sculptors were apparently told in no uncertain terms not to make Demiurg in 28mm scale for instance.

The Apothecaries look great, but it's a shame that they are not available separately. Room for one of the bits sites to make a couple of quid there, I would have been quite happy to pay £12-£13 for just one of them.

Kanluwen wrote:

carabine wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

carabine wrote:
Staring at the FW releases I'd say rumors of Dark Angels are getting further and further away. Ages ago there were rumors of a plasma pred for the next DA codex, now with a FW version that seems further away. Guess we just have to wait for the May WD to tell us. Personally I'm still hoping for templar or tau revamp.

Erm, not to rain on your parade or anything...

Forge World releasing something does not mean that Games Workshop will not. This, mind you, is not a "current" unit. This is something which will likely be released in an Imperial Armour: Apocalypse book down the road and likely IA12 after that.

Now I didn't say that they wouldn't, I said it seems further away. My money is on this being in IA 12 in a few months. While FW and GW aren't beholden to each other they don't step on toes that often.

Fact is you can pretty much draw a graph for this, the likely hood of fw producing a kit is inversely proportional to the likely hood that GW will produce the same kit.

Addendum to this graph is exceptions include GW directly lifting a FW kit.

That's not even true.

The likelihood of FW producing a kit is not "inversely proportional to the likelihood that GW will produce the same kit" in any way, shape, or form.

FW and the GW studio do not collaborate.

No they don't but they know not to step on each others' toes. They ARE owned by the same parent company and they do communicate.

On the other side, how many FW kits have you see that GW has picked up? Valk, Baneblade. Now what rules has GW picked up from FW, basalisk variants, hydra.... Okay so on a record of over 20 years I'm counting 4 units (1 of which is apoc) and 2 models (again one of which is apoc) all of which are for one army.

General rule of thumb, if FW does something new and or original its because GW is very VERY unlikely to do in the near (read: several years) future.

Also when FW does something that exists in GW rules set but has no model you can pretty much expect that GW has no plans to produce it. I mean we're still waiting on a conversion beamer from GW while FW has done what, 4 different models with it. Hey how about a GW drop pod sized for dreadnoughts. Maybe autocannon arms for dreadnoughts? Heavy bolter arms? More chapter specific shoulderpads for codices we have?

Yeah sorry FW and GW talk, and by the time FW produces a finished product it's just saying hey buy this, GW ain't gonna give you a plastic version any time soon.

Valkyrie, Baneblade, Manticore, the current design for the Whirlwind, the Immolator, the Piranha, and the Skyray have gone from FW to GW.

The inclusion of the Basilisk variants is not purely "GW picked up from FW", by the by. The Griffon Mortar(a Basilisk variant) was GW's before it was FW's.

The other stuff you mentioned( the drop pod sized for Dreadnoughts, the various Dreadnought arms, Chapter specific shoulderpads) are a haphazard mix of things. Chapter specific shoulderpads do exist for "codices we have" from GW. They're called the boxed sets for those codices. Terminator shoulderpads you'd likely have had a point on, excepting the instances of the Black Templars and Dark Angels(who have Chapter Upgrade Sprues rather than full kits for themselves, which all have Terminator bits on them).

The Dreadnought arms were a growth of the codex from FW's already available stuff. It wasn't made available, quite likely, because it's so obscenely easy to acquire it would have been ridiculous to make a plastic kit.

That said...

Yeah sorry FW and GW talk, and by the time FW produces a finished product it's just saying hey buy this, GW ain't gonna give you a plastic version any time soon.

This is not true. You'll notice that in this particular case, your Chicken Little approach has overlooked the fact that this is specifically being billed as a "Deimos Pattern Predator Executioner". The Demios Pattern stuff is meant to be more archaic patterned gear.

Unless you'd like to set forth an argument that the availability of resin Venerable Dreadnoughts blocked the production of a plastic Venerable Dreadnought kit?

Kanluwen wrote:this is specifically being billed as a "Deimos Pattern Predator Executioner". The Demios Pattern stuff is meant to be more archaic patterned gear.

Unless you'd like to set forth an argument that the availability of resin Venerable Dreadnoughts blocked the production of a plastic Venerable Dreadnought kit?

This. I guess GW have pulled plastic Rhinos then? Cos FW just put one out.....

Kanluwen wrote:Valkyrie, Baneblade, Manticore, vanquisher the current design for the Whirlwind, the Immolator, the Piranha, and the Skyray have gone from FW to GW.

The inclusion of the Basilisk variants is not purely "GW picked up from FW", by the by. The Griffon Mortar(a Basilisk variant) was GW's before it was FW's.

fixed that for you

Let me put a clarification out real fast.

I'm not saying that the rumor of the DA Plasma Predator is completely debunkable because of FW putting one out or anything. I personally put no credence in the rumor, simply because it seems a smidge farfetched that they'd release another Predator box set and make it one faction only.

If we see a Plasma Predator, I think it will be in a brand new recut Predator box, and it will be available to all the SM Chapters.

There is some basis for what he's saying about GW's and FW's interactions, but that sort of stuff has really changed. In the past GW would give general sort of policy rules like "no models that can directly stand in for a GW plastic kit."In that era we ended up with tank variants and all the superheavies. Since then GW moved on to allowing a dialog between the two studios, but it isn't mandatory and there is nothing that binds either of the two's decision making. The only thing GW has said relatively recently about FW kits is that they'd largely stay away from taking FW kits and making them GW kits.... a statement prompted by their take over of the Valkyrie being a bit of a "last time, we sware".

That said these conversion kits aren't the sort of thing GW has ever had an issue with. Precedent is that GW could well produce its own spirited equivalent... or it could have rules in a future codex without any regard to ever producing a model. Both are equal possibilities.

Kanluwen wrote:Valkyrie, Baneblade, Manticore, the current design for the Whirlwind, the Immolator, the Piranha, and the Skyray have gone from FW to GW.

The inclusion of the Basilisk variants is not purely "GW picked up from FW", by the by. The Griffon Mortar(a Basilisk variant) was GW's before it was FW's.

The other stuff you mentioned( the drop pod sized for Dreadnoughts, the various Dreadnought arms, Chapter specific shoulderpads) are a haphazard mix of things. Chapter specific shoulderpads do exist for "codices we have" from GW. They're called the boxed sets for those codices. Terminator shoulderpads you'd likely have had a point on, excepting the instances of the Black Templars and Dark Angels(who have Chapter Upgrade Sprues rather than full kits for themselves, which all have Terminator bits on them).

The Dreadnought arms were a growth of the codex from FW's already available stuff. It wasn't made available, quite likely, because it's so obscenely easy to acquire it would have been ridiculous to make a plastic kit.

That said...

Yeah sorry FW and GW talk, and by the time FW produces a finished product it's just saying hey buy this, GW ain't gonna give you a plastic version any time soon.

This is not true. You'll notice that in this particular case, your Chicken Little approach has overlooked the fact that this is specifically being billed as a "Deimos Pattern Predator Executioner". The Demios Pattern stuff is meant to be more archaic patterned gear.

Unless you'd like to set forth an argument that the availability of resin Venerable Dreadnoughts blocked the production of a plastic Venerable Dreadnought kit?

Plasic ven dread is a totally different design from the FW ones, same with the metal ven dread. Metal one existed before the FW venerables anyways. Also releases were YEARS apart hence holding up my statement.

Again the Codex gave us dreadnought weapons that GW wasn't going to produce because FW already had. Hence GW waiting on models because FW already did them. Honestly I'm happy with FW weapon arms but the point still stands. Only needed what, a 3 year break between 5th ed codes space marines and the plastic venerable dreadnought to give us ONE of the missing weapons options.

Coulda sworn we didn't and still don't have GW shoulders for Salamanders or Raven Guard. DA and BT termie shoulders only come 1-2 per box which is ridiculous.

I don't think I've ever seen a plastic or metal griffon mortar so my point still stands though I have to move that item into another catagory I already stated. Canquishers had a 10 year gap between FW and GW production, again my point.

Sorry charlie, I have an old whirlwind and as far as I see the old, the new and the FW are 3 different designs. Granted FW and GW are slightly more similar to each other but when I look at em all I see is an MLRS system. Two sculptors cribbing off the same source does not make for one basing off the other.

The GW immolator bears little no no resemblence to the FW one, the GW one is a center turret with a unique up armor setup while the FW one is a multi melta on a pintle mount.

I've only been at this game for about 10 years, so I've never seen any skyrays or pirannah pre GW but with a good bit of net surfing I can't find any that aren't the plastic kits.

Again I said when FW releases a kit it generally means GW will not release a direct likeness or parallel anytime soon. I did not say never. I stand by my examples GW tends to wait much longer on producing kits that have already been released by FW.

Also chicken little refers to a claim of impending doom not a healthy level of sourced skepticism. Now if I said something like "GW is gonna stop making predators cause FW is making em now too!" THAT would be chicken little. Again I'm not saying plasma pred is impossible just all that much less likely now that FW is doing one.

Darkness wrote:Would love to see the plasma pred with plasma cannons or guns for the sponsons

True that. The thing that makes me the most sad about this model is that little asterisk at the end where it says BA ones are not fast... Burn