Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Forerunners vs The Borg?

Amaya wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Amaya wrote:Shadows win.

A bit off topic, but not that easily. The Forerunners have the Halos after all. They fire those and its over. The Reapers won't be affected since they're mechanical; the Reapers could simply lay waste to any Shadow-controlled planet from orbit - the only reason they don't do that is because of their directive to harvest advanced organic civilizations. But if they set that aside, entire worlds will burn.

Reapers are semi-organic.

Only the consciousness. Their bodies are mechanical - the force that drives a Reaper is the collective consciousness of a harvested race. The galaxy after the synthesis ending is semi-organic, or at least every living thing is. Organics have become semi-synthetic at the cellular level, while synthetics are semi-organic at the molecular level. Which once again raises the question whether they'll be affected by the Halo Effect? They're not really cyborgs, but neither are they purely machine or flesh. The strengths of both but the weaknesses of neither. They are...something else.

LordofHats wrote:Forerunners vs The Borg?

Fire the Halos...as Captain Picard said in First Contact, the borg cannot survive without their organic components. At first glance, this may seem like the synthesis from ME3, but no. The synthesis fused organics and synthetics into one form of life, they are one and the same, with practically no difference anymore. Borg are cyborgs - they are composed of both organic and synthetic components, but still separate. Like the Geth before Legion uploaded the Reaper code into the Geth network - without each other, the Geth lose their intelligence, while without their synthetic parts, the Borg will die. I'm proud to say I gave the Geth true sentience and used synthesis; the Geth are now individually sentient, and any further problems between organic and synthetic is meaningless since those terms are effectively meaningless.

To be honest, I have to give it to the Forerunners. A single forerunner fortress ship could probably wipe out every reaper it encountered.

We are talking about a race here who invented coherent light, they make buildings, out of light. Beat that with your space Kraken.

Also, not to forget, the forerunners even have forms of time control. (if you read the 2nd forerunner saga book, you know how evil that stuff is).

The reason the flood was beating the forerunners is because the forerunners were just ending their war with the Humans (yes, there were humans at this time, and they had technology strong enough to actually fight the forerunners and win battles) they were also at war with the shan'shyuum (Sp?) and the flood was encountered from within, not without. Their first contact with the actual flood as we know it was through infection, and at that point, your pretty much screwed. Then theres the whole business with the precursor and such.

I'll be honest, I don't know a lot about reapers, but from videos and such, their weapons look kind of sub par when compared to a race that was effectively controlling evolution on a galactic scale whilst in 3 wars.

As for the AI part, we really don't have any way to scale how powerful AI's are from ME to Halo, all I know is, Halo AI's are pretty much gods as to how much power they can potentialy wield. Mendicant Bias being a prime example of what happens if you leave it in the wrong hands (IE a gravemind).

In the end, I think Forerunners win just by pure technological superiority.

Soladrin wrote:To be honest, I have to give it to the Forerunners. A single forerunner fortress ship could probably wipe out every reaper it encountered.

We are talking about a race here who invented coherent light, they make buildings, out of light. Beat that with your space Kraken.

Also, not to forget, the forerunners even have forms of time control. (if you read the 2nd forerunner saga book, you know how evil that stuff is).

The reason the flood was beating the forerunners is because the forerunners were just ending their war with the Humans (yes, there were humans at this time, and they had technology strong enough to actually fight the forerunners and win battles) they were also at war with the shan'shyuum (Sp?) and the flood was encountered from within, not without. Their first contact with the actual flood as we know it was through infection, and at that point, your pretty much screwed. Then theres the whole business with the precursor and such.

I'll be honest, I don't know a lot about reapers, but from videos and such, their weapons look kind of sub par when compared to a race that was effectively controlling evolution on a galactic scale whilst in 3 wars.

As for the AI part, we really don't have any way to scale how powerful AI's are from ME to Halo, all I know is, Halo AI's are pretty much gods as to how much power they can potentialy wield. Mendicant Bias being a prime example of what happens if you leave it in the wrong hands (IE a gravemind).

In the end, I think Forerunners win just by pure technological superiority.

But the Reapers have never fully used their weapons since their purpose is to harvest, not destroy life. And in theory, mass effect fields can also be used to control time, since controlling mass can also indirectly control gravity, which is the only force which can actually affect time itself. And the Reapers can manipulate evolution - their genetic technology is at least on par with the Forerunners, as shown by their ability to create the Keepers and the Collectors and the Husks, and most importantly, to 'condense' as species' collective consciousness by harvesting millions of individuals' genetic matter. And the Reapers are 'gods' to organics - Reaper Indoctrination effectively makes it impossible to resist a Reaper's directives, though one can fight it off for very short periods of time, something both Saren did at the end of ME 1, and Mendicant Bias recognized Master Chief at the Ark as Reclaimer, showing he had fought off the Gravemind's influence.

I wouldn't say Reapers are superior to Forerunners and vice-versa, but their probably on par with each other.

MASSIVE HALO SPOILERS

The whole reclaimer part (IIRC) stems from the use of the which could digitally store souls/minds etc that were later implanted into monitors (343 guilty spark being the prime example, which blew my mind). So in the final moments the forerunners actually fought alongside some humans. The precursor also marked humanity as the next "Test" species to carry the mantle.

The problem with throwing of the graveminds influence is that he was never physically infected which would make that an entirely moot point.

In the end though, my knowledge on the reapers is quite limited. I think that in the end, we don't actually know of either species true power. The forerunners are still being fleshed and it happened over 100k years before Halo 1 so. As for reapers, like you said they were harvesting and total extinction was never the goal. This makes it incredibely hard to really weigh them down.

In the end I'll stick with forerunners on personal preference but I'm guessing it really comes down how their specific tech matches up to each other. They are to different to make a good comparison so one might utterly smash to utter because they happen to have one gimmick the other one does not have acces to.

Keep one thing in mind though, the Dreadnought ship that powered high charity was, in terms of a Forerunner fleet, nothing more then a frigate.

Soladrin wrote:MASSIVE HALO SPOILERS

The whole reclaimer part (IIRC) stems from the use of the which could digitally store souls/minds etc that were later implanted into monitors (343 guilty spark being the prime example, which blew my mind). So in the final moments the forerunners actually fought alongside some humans. The precursor also marked humanity as the next "Test" species to carry the mantle.

The problem with throwing of the graveminds influence is that he was never physically infected which would make that an entirely moot point.

In the end though, my knowledge on the reapers is quite limited. I think that in the end, we don't actually know of either species true power. The forerunners are still being fleshed and it happened over 100k years before Halo 1 so. As for reapers, like you said they were harvesting and total extinction was never the goal. This makes it incredibely hard to really weigh them down.

In the end I'll stick with forerunners on personal preference but I'm guessing it really comes down how their specific tech matches up to each other. They are to different to make a good comparison so one might utterly smash to utter because they happen to have one gimmick the other one does not have acces to.

Keep one thing in mind though, the Dreadnought ship that powered high charity was, in terms of a Forerunner fleet, nothing more then a frigate.

Fair enough...but I have to wonder though. Weren't the Precursors defeated by the Forerunners? And I know that the Forerunners defeated the Ancient Human Empire because that empire was weakened after it narrowly defeated the Flood, so it's no surprise that they would re-evolve some Humans to help them fight the Flood (since they devolved Humanity after the empire fell), but why would they choose their former enemies as the Reclaimers? It doesn't really make sense to make them the inheritors of everything you left behind unless it was because the Librarian influenced the Didact to choose Humans, or he decided it was some form of redemption after the Forerunners failed to protect the galaxy from the Flood after Humanity did once.

Because in the final moments the humans proved themselves to the new Didact. However, this will probably be explained further in the last book of the forerunner saga so it's still a bit unclear from that point onwards.

And the reason they de-evolved humans and kept them around was because they had found the " cure" for the flood and were seemingly immume.

Another massive spoiler!

Soladrin wrote:Because in the final moments the humans proved themselves to the new Didact. However, this will probably be explained further in the last book of the forerunner saga so it's still a bit unclear from that point onwards.

And the reason they de-evolved humans and kept them around was because they had found the " cure" for the flood and were seemingly immume.

Another massive spoiler!

Spoiler:

Humanity never actually had the cure nor were they immume, the flood deliberately didn't infect them because they were the new species to carry the mantle in the next test. If you hadn't realized by now, the pre-cursor in Primordium is actually a gravemind.

Huh? I don't understand. And weren't Humans de-evolved because the Forerunners considered us too warlike? IMO, the only reason Humans became the Reclaimers was because the Librarian saw what other Forerunners failed to see - Humanity's potential - and convinced the Didact to name Humanity as the Reclaimers before she destroyed the Keyship fleet to stop Mendicant Bias and the Gravemind from reaching the Ark.

Humans weren't 'de-evolved'.
That is a stupid word.
An appropriate term would be forced technological regression... or as some might call it being bombed into the stone age.
Sol has read the books regarding this so he has more of the details than i do but AFAIK Humanity were the inheritors of the Mantle.

purplefood wrote:Humans weren't 'de-evolved'.
That is a stupid word.
An appropriate term would be forced technological regression... or as some might call it being bombed into the stone age.
Sol has read the books regarding this so he has more of the details than i do but AFAIK Humanity were the inheritors of the Mantle.

"I.SEE.YOU.RECLAIMER"
- Mendicant Bias

Tadashi wrote:

purplefood wrote:Humans weren't 'de-evolved'.
That is a stupid word.
An appropriate term would be forced technological regression... or as some might call it being bombed into the stone age.
Sol has read the books regarding this so he has more of the details than i do but AFAIK Humanity were the inheritors of the Mantle.

"I.SEE.YOU.RECLAIMER"
- Mendicant Bias

"I CAN USE THE CAPS LOCK AS WELL!"
-Purplefood

purplefood wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

purplefood wrote:Humans weren't 'de-evolved'.
That is a stupid word.
An appropriate term would be forced technological regression... or as some might call it being bombed into the stone age.
Sol has read the books regarding this so he has more of the details than i do but AFAIK Humanity were the inheritors of the Mantle.

"I.SEE.YOU.RECLAIMER"
- Mendicant Bias

"I CAN USE THE CAPS LOCK AS WELL!"
-Purplefood

very nice...well done

But seriously, wasn't that what Mendicant Bias said to Master Chief after it told an indignant 343 Guilty Spark that he had no business on the Ark?

Tadashi wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

purplefood wrote:Humans weren't 'de-evolved'.
That is a stupid word.
An appropriate term would be forced technological regression... or as some might call it being bombed into the stone age.
Sol has read the books regarding this so he has more of the details than i do but AFAIK Humanity were the inheritors of the Mantle.

"I.SEE.YOU.RECLAIMER"
- Mendicant Bias

"I CAN USE THE CAPS LOCK AS WELL!"
-Purplefood

very nice...well done

But seriously, wasn't that what Mendicant Bias said to Master Chief after it told an indignant 343 Guilty Spark that he had no business on the Ark?

What's your point?
We know Humanity are reclaimers...

purplefood wrote:Humans weren't 'de-evolved'.
That is a stupid word.
An appropriate term would be forced technological regression... or as some might call it being bombed into the stone age.
Sol has read the books regarding this so he has more of the details than i do but AFAIK Humanity were the inheritors of the Mantle.

De-evolved is very much appropriate here. Hell, theres hobbits and such in those books. They really did make humanity as a species inferior to what they were, not just the tech.

Ayway, in the 2nd forerunner saga book, the gravemind outright says that the flood vs human fight was ended completely as a choice by the flood, they could've outright killed humanity but didn't because they still had a role to play. T'was all scheming from your friendly neighbourhood gravemind.

The forerunners did not know about this and thus kept humanity around to find the cure for themselves if the flood ever showed themselves. In the end this was all a ploy by the flood to fool the forerunners into keeping humanity alive and to actually open up the forerunners defenses because they thought they had something to combat the flood.

Read the forerunner saga books, they will blow your mind.

Also, apparently the flood ate the precursors, though this is still somewhat based on speculation, but the gravemind in the book had the same appearence as a precursor.

Soladrin wrote:

purplefood wrote:Humans weren't 'de-evolved'.
That is a stupid word.
An appropriate term would be forced technological regression... or as some might call it being bombed into the stone age.
Sol has read the books regarding this so he has more of the details than i do but AFAIK Humanity were the inheritors of the Mantle.

De-evolved is very much appropriate here. Hell, theres hobbits and such in those books. They really did make humanity as a species inferior to what they were, not just the tech.

Ayway, in the 2nd forerunner saga book, the gravemind outright says that the flood vs human fight was ended completely as a choice by the flood, they could've outright killed humanity but didn't because they still had a role to play. T'was all scheming from your friendly neighbourhood gravemind.

The forerunners did not know about this and thus kept humanity around to find the cure for themselves if the flood ever showed themselves. In the end this was all a ploy by the flood to fool the forerunners into keeping humanity alive and to actually open up the forerunners defenses because they thought they had something to combat the flood.

Read the forerunner saga books, they will blow your mind.

Also, apparently the flood ate the precursors, though this is still somewhat based on speculation, but the gravemind in the book had the same appearence as a precursor.

I just checked the online synopsis...doesn't it say the Flood was supposedly designed as a bio-weapon by the Precursors against the Forerunners? The Ancient Human Empire just got caught in the first round and nearly wiped the Flood out with the 'cure'.

If your using the halo wiki, that thing is horribly out of date. The forerunner saga books do retcon a few things and ar pretty much making the entire jumbled mess of that time into a single structured story.

As for the made by the precursors, that's still in, it's just that they happened to also eat them.

The Halo wiki is also managed by a small group of fans who tend to make things up. I've mentioned before that no one should use it.

Soladrin wrote:If your using the halo wiki, that thing is horribly out of date. The forerunner saga books do retcon a few things and ar pretty much making the entire jumbled mess of that time into a single structured story.

As for the made by the precursors, that's still in, it's just that they happened to also eat them.

So the Flood was made by the Precursors as revenge against the Forerunners, but they got devoured by their own creations? Sounds a lot like the Zerg and the Xel'Naga from Starcraft. Then the Flood is nearly obliterated by the ancient Humans, who get de-evolved by the Forerunners, who get wiped out by the Flood. The Flood later returns to consume the galaxy, only to be defeated, again, by Humans.

Tadashi wrote:

Soladrin wrote:If your using the halo wiki, that thing is horribly out of date. The forerunner saga books do retcon a few things and ar pretty much making the entire jumbled mess of that time into a single structured story.

As for the made by the precursors, that's still in, it's just that they happened to also eat them.

So the Flood was made by the Precursors as revenge against the Forerunners, but they got devoured by their own creations? Sounds a lot like the Zerg and the Xel'Naga from Starcraft. Then the Flood is nearly obliterated by the ancient Humans, who get de-evolved by the Forerunners, who get wiped out by the Flood. The Flood later returns to consume the galaxy, only to be defeated, again, by Humans.

The Flood are a proving mechanism.
If you beat them you earn the Mantle.
The Forerunners didn't earn the Mantle...
Humans on the other hand...

purplefood wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Soladrin wrote:If your using the halo wiki, that thing is horribly out of date. The forerunner saga books do retcon a few things and ar pretty much making the entire jumbled mess of that time into a single structured story.

As for the made by the precursors, that's still in, it's just that they happened to also eat them.

So the Flood was made by the Precursors as revenge against the Forerunners, but they got devoured by their own creations? Sounds a lot like the Zerg and the Xel'Naga from Starcraft. Then the Flood is nearly obliterated by the ancient Humans, who get de-evolved by the Forerunners, who get wiped out by the Flood. The Flood later returns to consume the galaxy, only to be defeated, again, by Humans.

The Flood are a proving mechanism.
If you beat them you earn the Mantle.
The Forerunners didn't earn the Mantle...
Humans on the other hand...

Ah...so that's what it is. The Precursors refused to accept the Forerunners as their successors just because they beat the Precursors. As a final test, the Flood was created. Since the Ancient Human Empire defeated them, by all rights Humans should have inherited the Mantle. The Forerunners didn't like this and de-evolved Humans, only to be destroyed by the Flood. The survivors managed to destroy the Flood by giving up the Mantle and destroying everything, but conceded the Mantle to Humanity as the Reclaimers. Later the Covenant, like the Forerunners, claim the Mantle, but fail to stop the Flood. Humans defeated it a second time, so by all rights Humanity has proven twice that they are the rightful inheritors of the Mantle. But since the Covenant Seperatists helped the UNSC, does it mean the Mantle can/should be shared?

Tadashi wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Soladrin wrote:If your using the halo wiki, that thing is horribly out of date. The forerunner saga books do retcon a few things and ar pretty much making the entire jumbled mess of that time into a single structured story.

As for the made by the precursors, that's still in, it's just that they happened to also eat them.

So the Flood was made by the Precursors as revenge against the Forerunners, but they got devoured by their own creations? Sounds a lot like the Zerg and the Xel'Naga from Starcraft. Then the Flood is nearly obliterated by the ancient Humans, who get de-evolved by the Forerunners, who get wiped out by the Flood. The Flood later returns to consume the galaxy, only to be defeated, again, by Humans.

The Flood are a proving mechanism.
If you beat them you earn the Mantle.
The Forerunners didn't earn the Mantle...
Humans on the other hand...

Ah...so that's what it is. The Precursors refused to accept the Forerunners as their successors just because they beat the Precursors. As a final test, the Flood was created. Since the Ancient Human Empire defeated them, by all rights Humans should have inherited the Mantle. The Forerunners didn't like this and de-evolved Humans, only to be destroyed by the Flood. The survivors managed to destroy the Flood by giving up the Mantle and destroying everything, but conceded the Mantle to Humanity as the Reclaimers. Later the Covenant, like the Forerunners, claim the Mantle, but fail to stop the Flood. Humans defeated it a second time, so by all rights Humanity has proven twice that they are the rightful inheritors of the Mantle. But since the Covenant Seperatists helped the UNSC, does it mean the Mantle can/should be shared?

I don't know about the Precursors but to my knowledge it goes like this.

Precursors create the Forerunners.
Forerunners kill of most of the Precursors.
Humans find flood.
Humans manage to defeat the flood after a costly war.
Humans begin to annex other races' planets.
Forerunners declare war on Humanity for crimes against the Mantle.
Humanity is in the stone age.
Forerunners find the flood.
Forerunners kill most life.
Covenant + Humanity start a war.
Humanity manages to defeat the flood with Elite assistance.
Humanity have technically inherited and re-proved themselves worthy of the Mantle.

It's hard to judge the forerunners. Haven't really seen them in action. Not even familiar with their weapons. That being said, going with Reapers.

Forerunners would wipe the faces of the Reapers that they don't have. Forerunners don't even have to lift a finger. They would just send a bunch of Sentinels, not even half of their forces, to go and invade the Reapers from the inside and easily hack it with their tech. And if the Reapers fight back they will just find another way to eliminate the Reapers by either bring them down with all their Sentinels, use the Halo Arrays while they are safely behind their Shield worlds, and eventually bring the Reapers to there utter demise.

Gonorrhea000 wrote:Forerunners would wipe the faces of the Reapers that they don't have. Forerunners don't even have to lift a finger. They would just send a bunch of Sentinels, not even half of their forces, to go and invade the Reapers from the inside and easily hack it with their tech. And if the Reapers fight back they will just find another way to eliminate the Reapers by either bring them down with all their Sentinels, use the Halo Arrays while they are safely behind their Shield worlds, and eventually bring the Reapers to there utter demise.

Sentinels are nothing compared to a Reaper. Reapers have synthetic bodies, so Halos won't affect them. And Reapers have access to technology going back at least 37 million years, they're older and more advanced than the Forerunners. The only reason they didn't go all-out is because their goal is harvesting and preserving life, not destroying it. Look at the Synthesis ending of the Extended Cut DLC - EDI predicts that with organics and synthetics fully integrated and the Reapers giving full access to at least 37 million years worth of information, galactic civilization will advance to a point beyond her ability to predict.

Talk about thread necromancy...

Thread is being locked due to thread necromancy.