Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Thanks for posting these!

Interesting that no one from Austin made it.

I'll have to actually go to Adepticon one year for fun.

You know, there's an ignore button for guys like him. Doing him the honor of responding to his trolling just feeds his ego.

Redbeard wrote:You know, there's an ignore button for guys like him. Doing him the honor of responding to his trolling just feeds his ego.

Finally, someone talking sense in this thread.

I was wracking my brains wondering why everyone was responding to S-lite there. At least S tended to give details and reasons behind his bashing.

NoArmorSave wrote:

Thanks for posting, I wanted to see the other lists besides Chester's Grey Knights.

Honestly, I am not impressed with most of the lists I have reviewed so far. Most of them are not optimized in the most competitive way possible.

Some obervations:

I liked Tony Kopach's Space Wolves. His list is solid, but I would have dropped the Wolf Guard and added a unit of TWC instead.
I would also say that Jose Mendeze's Dark Angels were pretty optimized, however I question running 2 Land Raiders at 1850, even in an all Death Wing army.
Alexander's Necrons seem to be about the best the Necron codex has so far, so Kudos to him. However, his list would be devastated by a proper Fatecrusher or
a good Draigo Wing player IMHO. He didn't face either in this tournament as far as I could tell.

The Daemon player really dropped the ball. He had no Blood Crushers in his list, and he was running Fateweaver. I am not sure how
much he play tested, but the entire list needs to be rebuilt.

The Grey Knight players think they are onto something by running squads of 3 Warrior Acolytes in a Razorback or Chimera, with a couple
supporting units of Purifiers or a unit of Death Cult Assassins. I don't buy it, and think it is far inferior to an IG Leafblower list running Melta
Vets in Chimeras.

.

Yeah I was wondering if Tony would keep Njal after his second hit with the GW nerf hammer. sacificing the Wolf guard would have had serious affect on those GH squads reducing their firepower, CC ability (PF's and Wolf standard combine nicely) and Ld(counter attack) and presented his opposition with easy target(TWC) with only ld8 to take out a significant part of his CC ability. Also TWC are quite vulnerable to GK which made up 50% of the opposition.

On the Warrior Acolytes it worked for the winner. Which is normally a good sign. They do present easy kill points once the transport is popped though.

I was a bit skeptical when I first saw Bill Kim's list too (not that it did not work, it clearly does but WHY does it work). Here are my thoughts (I do not claim to be one of the best Daemon players, I have competed in one GT with them to moderate success in the actual battles). So an actual analysis of Bill Kim's list.

It is pretty standard in a Fateweaver list to bring along a Bloodthirster with Unholy Might and Blessing of the Blood God. That costs somewhere around 275 points (from memory). For another 25 points you can bring Skar. You lose wings (gain fleet), gain Breath, and Instrument and Lose Blessing. Skar also has a built in Might so that upgrade is there.

More importantly, you can reroll your attacks against everything in CC, which means you can re-roll your attacks against transports (effectively you double the number of hits against those moving at cruising speed and add 25% more against hose moving at combat speed).

The next real choice in a Daemon army is to bring either Crushers or Fiends. Expecting a large number of Grey Knights there is really only the option of Fiends, since they can DS outside Warp Quake and still make it into combat the next turn. Unholy Might is the natural upgrade here for some wound allocation and to ID the occasional T3 chump.

How many Fiend units to take really depends on the rest of your list - I am not sure the total motivation to take two units and Seekers rather than three units, but I will speculate in a moment.

For troops, Horrors with Bolt are a solid option to drop back and take some pot shots. In most games you need to sit on at least one or two objectives at range from the enemy and having some shooting at AP 4 is useful. These are pretty standard and I agree with needing 4 troop choices overall (especially when you have 15 T3 models.

The unique choice is the large brick of Bloodletters. These guys carry the one of two Icons in the army and are dangerous to get to know better - they need to be a bit larger to carry an icon and they are the slowest CC unit in the army. I look at this as a unit that comes down midfield (or in a key location) and threatens anything nearby while weathering any shooting.

Finally we get to the unit of Seekers. These guys are killing machines in combination with Skar and can rip vehicles apart. I think there are four reasons to take these over a third unit of Fiends. (1) They can carry an icon - otherwise you need a more durable troop unit other than the Bloodletters, (2) They have assault and defensive grenades so they can pry units out of cover, (3) They put out 80 attacks on the charge... (4) a unit of Fiends leaves you with about 100 spare points laying around. You can add another troop unit or add bodies to one, but otherwise you have no good way to spend those (maybe 3 flamers but they do not really have the same synergy that Seekers do).

Overall I really like this list because it does some things that most Daemon lists cannot . It answers the Transport question with Skar, rather than by pushing in a bunch of sub-par shooting, it has a lot of speed and it can pry units out of cover with the Seekers. Further, its speed means it will get the charge on GK (which is absolutely critical in that matchup due to psyk outs) and Skar is only a force multiplier for the Daemon player in those games too.

As for wave splits, I did not see any of Bill Kim's games, but the generic option was probably something like...

Fate, Skar, Fiends x2 Seekers
Horrors x3, Bloodletters

Like all Daemon lists, if Skar and Fate stay out for a while after getting a non-preferred wave it could be bad (that is 1/3 of the army) but in a format with a lot of KP missions, this list can win games with only one or two models left on the table.

@. No armor save

You definitely have some negative critiques and there's nothing wrong with that. I have no doibt you are a good enough player if you really game As often as you claim. It's when you get heated and say childish things like "your avatar sucks" that people lose respect for you. Saying you can destroy armies that win tournaments is fine you've got confidence. If someone on here is in your area an calls you out I say prove how good you are and pOst a battle report on here.

The real testament to some of the competitors in the top 16 is that 4 or 5 of them are the same folks as last year.


Anyone claiming to be able to easily beat any of them is just wishful thinking.

I think people overestimate how good they are and how much the list really impacts. I have seen people playing these meta lists and going 4-4 for the weekend simply because they are an 'ok' player.

The people who hit the top 16 are consistantly up there and are simply good at the game.

And :( for no ork lists :(

I am always curious to see how people are spending points and what seems to work.

blood angel wrote:The real testament to some of the competitors in the top 16 is that 4 or 5 of them are the same folks as last year.


Anyone claiming to be able to easily beat any of them is just wishful thinking.

This.

While I do believe list and book selection play a larger part in GW games than they do in other games, the fact that we consistently see the same people at the top of list in national level events proves that skill is still more important than having those lists that convention and math say are the best.

Anyone saying that their list can beat these consistently proven players hands down without any support or backing up of your statements and implying that they don't know how to select lists despite all evidence to the contrary is what causes problems.

calypso2ts wrote:I was a bit skeptical when I first saw Bill Kim's list too (not that it did not work, it clearly does but WHY does it work). Here are my thoughts (I do not claim to be one of the best Daemon players, I have competed in one GT with them to moderate success in the actual battles). So an actual analysis of Bill Kim's list.

It is pretty standard in a Fateweaver list to bring along a Bloodthirster with Unholy Might and Blessing of the Blood God. That costs somewhere around 275 points (from memory). For another 25 points you can bring Skar. You lose wings (gain fleet), gain Breath, and Instrument and Lose Blessing. Skar also has a built in Might so that upgrade is there.

More importantly, you can reroll your attacks against everything in CC, which means you can re-roll your attacks against transports (effectively you double the number of hits against those moving at cruising speed and add 25% more against hose moving at combat speed).

The next real choice in a Daemon army is to bring either Crushers or Fiends. Expecting a large number of Grey Knights there is really only the option of Fiends, since they can DS outside Warp Quake and still make it into combat the next turn. Unholy Might is the natural upgrade here for some wound allocation and to ID the occasional T3 chump.

How many Fiend units to take really depends on the rest of your list - I am not sure the total motivation to take two units and Seekers rather than three units, but I will speculate in a moment.

For troops, Horrors with Bolt are a solid option to drop back and take some pot shots. In most games you need to sit on at least one or two objectives at range from the enemy and having some shooting at AP 4 is useful. These are pretty standard and I agree with needing 4 troop choices overall (especially when you have 15 T3 models.

The unique choice is the large brick of Bloodletters. These guys carry the one of two Icons in the army and are dangerous to get to know better - they need to be a bit larger to carry an icon and they are the slowest CC unit in the army. I look at this as a unit that comes down midfield (or in a key location) and threatens anything nearby while weathering any shooting.

Finally we get to the unit of Seekers. These guys are killing machines in combination with Skar and can rip vehicles apart. I think there are four reasons to take these over a third unit of Fiends. (1) They can carry an icon - otherwise you need a more durable troop unit other than the Bloodletters, (2) They have assault and defensive grenades so they can pry units out of cover, (3) They put out 80 attacks on the charge... (4) a unit of Fiends leaves you with about 100 spare points laying around. You can add another troop unit or add bodies to one, but otherwise you have no good way to spend those (maybe 3 flamers but they do not really have the same synergy that Seekers do).

Overall I really like this list because it does some things that most Daemon lists cannot . It answers the Transport question with Skar, rather than by pushing in a bunch of sub-par shooting, it has a lot of speed and it can pry units out of cover with the Seekers. Further, its speed means it will get the charge on GK (which is absolutely critical in that matchup due to psyk outs) and Skar is only a force multiplier for the Daemon player in those games too.

As for wave splits, I did not see any of Bill Kim's games, but the generic option was probably something like...

Fate, Skar, Fiends x2 Seekers
Horrors x3, Bloodletters

Like all Daemon lists, if Skar and Fate stay out for a while after getting a non-preferred wave it could be bad (that is 1/3 of the army) but in a format with a lot of KP missions, this list can win games with only one or two models left on the table.

"It is pretty standard in a Fateweaver list to bring along a Bloodthirster with Unholy Might and Blessing of the Blood God. That costs somewhere around 275 points (from memory). For another 25 points you can bring Skar. You lose wings (gain fleet), gain Breath, and Instrument and Lose Blessing. Skar also has a built in Might so that upgrade is there.
More importantly, you can reroll your attacks against everything in CC, which means you can re-roll your attacks against transports (effectively you double the number of hits against those moving at cruising speed and add 25% more against hose moving at combat speed)."

This is apples and oranges, but is a pretty important consideration. I normally always run a Bloodthirster with might and blessing at 2K, Skarbrand is not even a consideration. Why? Draigo Wing. A Bloodthirster with Blessing can wreck havoc on a brick of Paladins with the 2++, especially if they are already engaged with blobs of Crushers.
With that being said, I play with another Fatecrusher player that always run Skar. I would consider running Skar if not playing against large amounts of Grey Knights.


"The next real choice in a Daemon army is to bring either Crushers or Fiends. Expecting a large number of Grey Knights there is really only the option of Fiends, since they can DS outside Warp Quake and still make it into combat the next turn. Unholy Might is the natural upgrade here for some wound allocation and to ID the occasional T3 chump."

You are completey incorrect here. If you even think there will be Dragio Wing players competing, you have got to have Crushers. Fiends evaporate virtually instanlty to Paladins. Large units of Crushers supported by Fateweaver and a Bloodthirster with might & blessing will destroy them in assault. Even without Draigo Wing involved, I would take no more than 1 unit of Fiends at the 2K level, and may not even bring them at all.


"For troops, Horrors with Bolt are a solid option to drop back and take some pot shots. In most games you need to sit on at least one or two objectives at range from the enemy and having some shooting at AP 4 is useful. These are pretty standard and I agree with needing 4 troop choices overall (especially when you have 15 T3 models."

You need Plaguebearers. Especially with the almost 100% focus on objectives at these major events. Bolt is unreliable and "mickey mouse" IMHO. Bloodcrushers will absolutely wreck a non AV14 mech wall on the assault. I have never had any problems opening transports in my list, and there are answers for AV14.


"The unique choice is the large brick of Bloodletters. These guys carry the one of two Icons in the army and are dangerous to get to know better - they need to be a bit larger to carry an icon and they are the slowest CC unit in the army. I look at this as a unit that comes down midfield (or in a key location) and threatens anything nearby while weathering any shooting."

A large unit of Bloodletters (at least 10 strong) can be good. I don't use them much, but have seen them used plenty. They are also surprisingly good at tearing apart non AV14 mech, because of furious charge. Remember, virtually all vehicles are armor 10 on the back. They can also be good when teamed up with Bloodcrushers, after the Bloodcrushers get into assault.


"Finally we get to the unit of Seekers. These guys are killing machines in combination with Skar and can rip vehicles apart. I think there are four reasons to take these over a third unit of Fiends. (1) They can carry an icon - otherwise you need a more durable troop unit other than the Bloodletters, (2) They have assault and defensive grenades so they can pry units out of cover, (3) They put out 80 attacks on the charge... (4) a unit of Fiends leaves you with about 100 spare points laying around. You can add another troop unit or add bodies to one, but otherwise you have no good way to spend those (maybe 3 flamers but they do not really have the same synergy that Seekers do)."

Seekers can be good, and as you mentioned have grenades. I have a list that uses 1 unit of them at 2K, and they perform ok. ST3 really hurts, even with 80ish attacks, and they surprisngly are not very effective at taking out AV12 walkers a lot of the time. They can be very effective at screening out walkers and kan walls aways from the Bloodcrushers.

whitedragon wrote:It looks like NoArmorSave is just trying to get some visibility for when he quits Dakka and starts his own blog, as other folks have in the past by calling out tourney players and being negative nancy's. (I'm talking about Stelek and YTTH of course.)

For real NoArmorSave, just save us all the headache and start your own blog already.

Exactly my thoughts... this guy ain't worth the reply button...

Stelek at least would give evidence/tactics/lists/not talk out of his butt. (imho) when responding to people... and he trolled like a pro instead of a novice

eyeslikethunder wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

Thanks for posting, I wanted to see the other lists besides Chester's Grey Knights.

Honestly, I am not impressed with most of the lists I have reviewed so far. Most of them are not optimized in the most competitive way possible.

Some obervations:

I liked Tony Kopach's Space Wolves. His list is solid, but I would have dropped the Wolf Guard and added a unit of TWC instead.
I would also say that Jose Mendeze's Dark Angels were pretty optimized, however I question running 2 Land Raiders at 1850, even in an all Death Wing army.
Alexander's Necrons seem to be about the best the Necron codex has so far, so Kudos to him. However, his list would be devastated by a proper Fatecrusher or
a good Draigo Wing player IMHO. He didn't face either in this tournament as far as I could tell.

The Daemon player really dropped the ball. He had no Blood Crushers in his list, and he was running Fateweaver. I am not sure how
much he play tested, but the entire list needs to be rebuilt.

The Grey Knight players think they are onto something by running squads of 3 Warrior Acolytes in a Razorback or Chimera, with a couple
supporting units of Purifiers or a unit of Death Cult Assassins. I don't buy it, and think it is far inferior to an IG Leafblower list running Melta
Vets in Chimeras.

.

Yeah I was wondering if Tony would keep Njal after his second hit with the GW nerf hammer. sacificing the Wolf guard would have had serious affect on those GH squads reducing their firepower, CC ability (PF's and Wolf standard combine nicely) and Ld(counter attack) and presented his opposition with easy target(TWC) with only ld8 to take out a significant part of his CC ability. Also TWC are quite vulnerable to GK which made up 50% of the opposition.

On the Warrior Acolytes it worked for the winner. Which is normally a good sign. They do present easy kill points once the transport is popped though.

"Also TWC are quite vulnerable to GK which made up 50% of the opposition."

I would disagree with this. I have seen them used against Grey Knights, and used correctly, can cause a real problem.
The key - they need to be supported with a Rune Priest(s). The Rune Priests can shut down Grey Knight force weapon activation, and often do. Couple that with the fact they are T5 with Storm Shields, and they are nasty.


"On the Warrior Acolytes it worked for the winner. Which is normally a good sign. They do present easy kill points once the transport is popped though."

I can't see it. If you want to run a bunch of Chimeras with cheap troops, a good IG list would be much more effective. I don't think his list is even close to being the best MSU list around, because of the acolyte spam. They
are pretty worthless when all said and done. BA Razorspam or GK Purifierspam are much more effective builds IMHO.

Seems like noarmorsave comes from the camp of people that believe the list wins the game, not the player. I would disagree with that and argue that the results would have been much different if less seasoned gamers were playing the same lists

@NoArmorSave. You do understand he is dropping the 3 acolytes out of the Chimeras putting the squad of Purifires in it and then the acolytes are hoping in the rhinos. That way the 4 psycannon purifyer squads can fully shoot (aling with the Ml and/or HF) out of a moving av12 box instead only 2 shooting out of a av11 one...

**Edit** Okay turns out I was wrong... and so is Tasty.. He is listing Joakim Engstroms GK's as being 5 points over the 1850 limit. I rebuilt the army using AB and it comes out to 1834 as listed on Tastys posting. So apologys from me for jumping the gun...

Maybe take the 'Daemons are the awesomez' discussion to its own thread?

sooo... anways... It makes me sad Nick N had a run of bad luck there. : )

I was hoping he'd take it

Would have been sweet if he swept Adepticon. We were joking about it after the team tournament. Not a bad weekend overall for the little bugger

Hulksmash wrote:Would have been sweet if he swept Adepticon. We were joking about it after the team tournament. Not a bad weekend overall for the little bugger

agreed! I can't wait till Friday so I can roll him again with the tau... his GKs fear the tau and always roll poor vs them

Congrats to the players in the top 16, while those lists may not be the super optimized lists (which is open to debate, of course), they worked for them on that weekend in that event, and that's really all you can ask for from any list.

I've seen Centurion99's list prior to this, not from a tournament, but from when he posted painted shots of the army. He's been playing that list for a while now, going on 2-3 years if I'm recalling how long ago he first posted it correctly. He knows his list, and is a good player, and I'm not surprised that he made the top 16 field amongst what people consider "better" codices. I think the only top 16 list I'm surprised by is the Deathwing list including 2 Land Raiders and no speeders, but kudos to that player for having the skill to take a 2 Land Raider list that far in the tournament.

Polonius wrote:Yeah, I think if nothing else, he's accomplished his goal. Instead of talking about players that succeed in tournaments or their lists, we're talking about him.

Which is why I told you last year we needed to set up that super awesome game-off for money so we could also be internet celebrities! Currently I'm only known for my Dark Eldar shenanigans and that gig is wearing thin.

@noarmorsave
Ok tough guy, you're the greatest player since sliced bread. I'll be in SoCal in june for the game empire gt. Come on down with your super list and we'll play, give you the chance to put your money where your mouth is.

I hope you're really young, which would explain the attitude (and be excuseable) but either way, here's your chance to back up the big talk. I'll be sure to bring a "fluff" list like we all did to adepticon. You know, those of us who actually have gone oit and done something in real life as oppossed to just being rude and condescending on the internet.

derek wrote:Congrats to the players in the top 16, while those lists may not be the super optimized lists (which is open to debate, of course), they worked for them on that weekend in that event, and that's really all you can ask for from any list.

I've seen Centurion99's list prior to this, not from a tournament, but from when he posted painted shots of the army. He's been playing that list for a while now, going on 2-3 years if I'm recalling how long ago he first posted it correctly. He knows his list, and is a good player, and I'm not surprised that he made the top 16 field amongst what people consider "better" codices. I think the only top 16 list I'm surprised by is the Deathwing list including 2 Land Raiders and no speeders, but kudos to that player for having the skill to take a 2 Land Raider list that far in the tournament.

Agreed! Congrats to Bill, it was awesome to meet you

Also thanks to calypso2ts for the detailed analysis of his list. I love seeing a supposedly "non-optimized" army take a high placing (5th, right?) in such a big event . Familiarity, player skill, and also catching the opponent by surprise all play a bit of a role, I'm sure.

Reecius wrote:@noarmorsave
Ok tough guy, you're the greatest player since sliced bread. I'll be in SoCal in june for the game empire gt. Come on down with your super list and we'll play, give you the chance to put your money where your mouth is.

I hope you're really young, which would explain the attitude (and be excuseable) but either way, here's your chance to back up the big talk. I'll be sure to bring a "fluff" list like we all did to adepticon. You know, those of us who actually have gone oit and done something in real life as oppossed to just being rude and condescending on the internet.

You know what, I am a tough guy. I don't live in SoCal, how about you come to me?


"You know, those of us who actually have gone oit and done something in real life as oppossed to just being rude and condescending on the internet. "

pretre wrote:Maybe take the 'Daemons are the awesomez' discussion to its own thread?

So who is up for creating a "deamons are the most over powered codex in the past decade" thread?

Congrats to all of the top 16. Thank you to Blood of Kittens for posting it.

Player skill and being experienced with your army seems to matter more then just list alone.

I too was hoping Nick (yermom on dakka) would take it with his Grey Knights. Hopefully he has time to write a report. Congrats Nick, Andrew, Aaaron and Brad on winning the team tournament.

Would be interested in any reports from any of the top 16 for that matter.

Not surprised so many GKs. Its the best codex period.

Alex's Necron list is pretty interesting its different then the Immotek based or dual lord in command barge with scarab/wraiths backed by spiders lists I'm used to playing. Kudos to Alex for making it so far. The Pink Necrons really stand out.

Demon's is actually pretty good in the hands of a good player. Nick is quite good with demons as well and his lists had fiends and seekers similar to Bill Kim's. The key to fiends and seekers is the speed they have to actually get in combat. Bloodcrushers are slow. It actually is quite effective. I'm 1-2 against Nick's similar list with my Imperial Guard. The one I won Nick had a bad scatter on his big unit of seekers. Outside of yermom, and Avariel, I don't see many Grey Knight players unning Strike Squads so there isn't much warp quake.

I like Tony's wolf list. Has anyone asked him why he kept Njal with the faq nerf to him when your not going first? Is the 3+ negate to psyker powers that significant?

Kudos to Reecius for making it in with Footdar.

Nice to see at least 1 Guard player made it. Like the Vets with just demo, will have to try that out. I also been noticing Imperial Guard has more bad match ups with Necrons Immotek is pretty much a loss and Grey Knights vs good players with solid lists like target, yermom or Avariel is always pretty hard.

Gonna just ignore NoArmorSave.

@noarmorsave
Hahaha, nice response. You must be a child, or a teenager at best.

I thought I read someone say you were in pasadena. Either way, you're digging a whole here, buddy. You're insulting proven players and acting as if anyone here is going to think your opinion of their list somehow overides the reality of their success. Grow up and get over yourself.

Look bud, you want to play, let us know what tournament you'll be at and if I am at the same event, I promise I will request to play you round 1 and we'll see what you've got. Otherwise, you're just a bunch of hot air. If you think anyone's actually taking you seriously, you're mistaken. You're attitude is really off-putting. Even if you do have something to add to the conversation with your experience, the way you deliver it makes people want to ignore you.

So until you prove yourself, you can look forward to being a lagend in your own mind, and a joke to everyone else. It's your choice.

As someone who plays Bill regularly I can in 100% honesty say that it is his fault for this thread and not NoArmorSave. Probably half the reason he plays that list is to stir up the internet when he does well.

Which is because of the other 50%, he knows his list, he has tuned it and knows how to play it. Is the list perfect? No, but no list is and not many people run howling banshees. He was one of the first I saw to run mass bloodcrushers but he has since dropped for the extra speed of the the fiends.It works for him. Does it work for you? Irrelevant. One thing a lot of these lists show is that tuned and spammed are not equivalent.

Can someone explain to me how the Necron list beats those GK lists? I don't see how it pops enough transports/dreads and doesn't get shot up before it gets a chance to get into combat (where it might not even win anyway) or does more damage with shooting.

I am in no way saying it sucks, I'm just missing how it works!

Reece -

I'd also love to hear the general plan with your footdar. How do you typically deploy and what do you with psykic powers? 3x fortune? guide/doom warwalkers? I generally get how your list works, but again, I'm missing the nuance.

Love to hear the analysis guys!

Reecius wrote:@noarmorsave
Hahaha, nice response. You must be a child, or a teenager at best.

I thought I read someone say you were in pasadena. Either way, you're digging a whole here, buddy. You're insulting proven players and acting as if anyone here is going to think your opinion of their list somehow overides the reality of their success. Grow up and get over yourself.

Look bud, you want to play, let us know what tournament you'll be at and if I am at the same event, I promise I will request to play you round 1 and we'll see what you've got. Otherwise, you're just a bunch of hot air. If you think anyone's actually taking you seriously, you're mistaken. You're attitude is really off-putting. Even if you do have something to add to the conversation with your experience, the way you deliver it makes people want to ignore you.

So until you prove yourself, you can look forward to being a lagend in your own mind, and a joke to everyone else. It's your choice.

Dude, don't feed the troll. You don't have to prove anything to anybody. Your list rocks face, you're a great player, you run your own gaming store, you run one of the most successful events in the west coast area, and you're a class act super nice guy to play with.

We all know whats up. Stelek Jr is just trolling.

@lee
Good seeing you at adepticon, buddy!

And wow, a reasonable response, imagine that. Instead of syaing something sucks outright because you don't see how it works.

My army is actually really resilient, more so than it looks. It relies heavily on synergy between units to function, being patient, misdirection, bait, screening and setting traps. You have to think a turn ahead and you have to deploy well or you're hosed.

The key is setting up advantageous close range engagements, and everything I do in the movement phase is aimed at that goal. Within 24" I can outshoot dang near any other army in the game, and still assault after. Harlies and the avatar, especially with farseer support, will kill most other units. If I can't fight them, I can flak them to death, usually. If all elsd fails, like a true elf I can run and hidd, using fearless and firtune to keep my units in the fight.

It's a fun army to play, you just need to be able to look at any list in the game and be able to see how to beat it given the mission before the game starts, or you're going to get hosed in bad match-ups.

The reason I like the army so much is because it can do something in every phase of the game, and units can combo with each other to take individually weak units and make them much more powerful. Every uniy can move, shoot, and assault, so it is a very fluid force, too which makes it deceptively mobile.

So long as you can use each unit in the army to it's best effect, even in bad match-ups units that would look to be useless can still serve a purpose.

Sorry I didn't have more concrete tactics, but it honestly is a really different gameplan depending on mission, terrain and opponent. Each game is different, with sometimes radically different on the table tactics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@whitedragon
You're right man, sorry for taking the bait. It's just annoying to see friends of mine insulted, especially bill who invented fatecrusher for crying out loud, and steeler shock, and won gladiator two years back to back, by some jerk who hasn't done anything besides be mean.

Thanks for the kind words though, that means a lot to me.