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NoArmorSave wrote:

Reecius wrote:@noarmorsave
Ok tough guy, you're the greatest player since sliced bread. I'll be in SoCal in june for the game empire gt. Come on down with your super list and we'll play, give you the chance to put your money where your mouth is.

I hope you're really young, which would explain the attitude (and be excuseable) but either way, here's your chance to back up the big talk. I'll be sure to bring a "fluff" list like we all did to adepticon. You know, those of us who actually have gone oit and done something in real life as oppossed to just being rude and condescending on the internet.

You know what, I am a tough guy. I don't live in SoCal, how about you come to me?

How about we split the difference and you show up to Duelcon?

@Reecius - I watched the Independent Characters coverage of your game vs. Paul M. Wow..... I thought I had tough luck... You just could never catch a break, yet you were almost able to pull out a win! Even more impressive that it was with Eldar! I look up to anyone who plays Eldar and even more so to fine players such as yourself! I loved watching you play Jy2 before too! I will continue rooting for you in your games against crutch armies

Reecius wrote:
The troll is actually really resilient, more so than it looks. It relies heavily on synergy between posters to function, being patient, misdirection, bait, screening and setting traps. You have to think a post ahead and you have to post well or you're hosed.

Uh oh...

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@whitedragon
You're right man, sorry for taking the bait.

He got you.

thehod wrote:

pretre wrote:Maybe take the 'Daemons are the awesomez' discussion to its own thread?

So who is up for creating a "deamons are the most over powered codex in the past decade" thread?

Good luck not getting it locked by the mods!

Fatecrusher is a seriously powerful build but I don't think it warrants its own thread.

"Fantasy Daemons in 7th Edition is the most overpowered codex GW has put out in a decade" that on the other hand would be a thread worth starting and contributing too.

Reecius wrote:@lee
The reason I like the army so much is because it can do something in every phase of the game, and units can combo with each other to take individually weak units and make them much more powerful. Every uniy can move, shoot, and assault, so it is a very fluid force, too which makes it deceptively mobile.

I have nothing but respect for Foot Eldar, I have played Chris Courtney's Foot Eldar (and watched him play them against opponents) and I got dismantled by Greg Sparks' Foot Eldar in Game 2 of Da Boyz playing Daemons. The problem is they present an incredibly diverse threat profile between resilient Fortuned units, strong short range shooting (with Doom to be really obnoxious), surprisingly resilient Defend/Shimmershield units, a Fearless bubble with CC ability in Wraithlorads/Avatar/Harlequins. I might even go so far as to say I dislike playing Foot Eldar more than any other army I have played, they always make me feel like I did when I started...one turn behind the opponent...

Edit: I apologize for the long Daemons post, I figured this is a Tournament Discussion (army list) thread and did not realize how long my post was!

The daemons analysis was really helpful, calypso2ts, don't apologize for it!

Also, daemons in fantasy: Scooter won the fantasy big brawl with max battle points (60/60) with his usual Kairos / bloodletters / flamers daemon list. I think this is, what, the third year in a row he's won a big fantasy event at Adepticon? Although with different lists, of course.

Doesn't get the coverage on this site since we're so 40k focused, though!

I wish daemons would get a new book for fantasy so their dominance could finally end...

I had played against Greg S a few times before and knew what to expect from the Eldar. It was basically going to come down to my difficult terrain checks and it did.

Not wiping out the 2nd unit of fire dragons in one volley of fire is actually what kept it close. I had to spend two rounds on them.

I absolutely can't argue that the couple of clutch roles going my way kept it exciting. I am sure if Reece comes to Wargames Con we can get another match in before the tournament starts.

Reecius wrote:@noarmorsave
Hahaha, nice response. You must be a child, or a teenager at best.

I thought I read someone say you were in pasadena. Either way, you're digging a whole here, buddy. You're insulting proven players and acting as if anyone here is going to think your opinion of their list somehow overides the reality of their success. Grow up and get over yourself.

Look bud, you want to play, let us know what tournament you'll be at and if I am at the same event, I promise I will request to play you round 1 and we'll see what you've got. Otherwise, you're just a bunch of hot air. If you think anyone's actually taking you seriously, you're mistaken. You're attitude is really off-putting. Even if you do have something to add to the conversation with your experience, the way you deliver it makes people want to ignore you.

So until you prove yourself, you can look forward to being a lagend in your own mind, and a joke to everyone else. It's your choice.

I think I may have confused you there Reece. I was talking about NoArmor... and then referenced our local Daemon player as one Blackmoor will have to face in our league at GE: Pasadena. NoArmor is not the same guy. Sand, better known to you as Brandon, is our friend who has taken top spots in all 4 (? might just be 3; I know it was a third and two firsts minimum) of the WM/H events at the BAO each year. He is a good guy and wouldn't be on here hosing none sense out of every orifice. Sorry for confusing you there!

Thanks also for the breakdown of that list. I agree with Lee, I couldn't quite see how the list worked exactly but there is no doubting footdar is good. Foot lists in general don't get the respect they usually deserve and your list is a clear swiss army style list that functions well in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. Congrats!

@Lee: You went to Adepticon? Did you play Fantasy, WM/H, 40k?

@benamint
Thanks! I really appreciate that. It was a fun event, and I am happy that other people got a kick out of watching, that makes it a double win.

@red beard
Haha, true! Yeah, I should know better than to take the bait. Sorry.

@blood angel
Yup, I knew I was exposing myself going for that second mind war, but until then I hadn't gotten the kp objective yet and seeing as my stupid wraithlord couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, I didn't want to rely on him. Had I killed that stupid techmarine turn 5, I would have run for the hills and won. When you rolled that 6 to make combat, I knew my goose was cooked if the game went to 7 and it did. Oh well, great game! You are a classy opponent, and you only made a single, realtively minor tactical error all game, otherwise playing exactly how you should have. Well done, paul.

@overwatch
No worries, I missread it. I just thought it'd be fun to see if the troll would come from n


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Under his bridge and actually play!

@calypso
Yeah, sparks knows his stuff with footdar (or walking eldar as he calls them). He's a great player.

Fatigue was a huge factor during the weekend. I was living off of five hour energy and monsters. I literally got less than 45 mins of sleep before the Champs. I am hoping the structure is a bit different next year to account for that.

RiTides wrote:The daemons analysis was really helpful, calypso2ts, don't apologize for it!

Also, daemons in fantasy: Scooter won the fantasy big brawl with max battle points (60/60) with his usual Kairos / bloodletters / flamers daemon list. I think this is, what, the third year in a row he's won a big fantasy event at Adepticon? Although with different lists, of course.

Doesn't get the coverage on this site since we're so 40k focused, though!

Maybe daemons will get a new book soon and it will all go away...

You know, I was sorta thinking it was bs that I can't find ANY real fantasy coverage at all from Adepticon. There were a ton of players there... where are they?! NEED TO SEE STUFF AND HEAR WHAT WON AND ALL THAT! Silly roundbasers taking up all the forum space.

ArbitorIan wrote:
I'm sad to see spam-based netlists like GK Purifier/Razorback and four squads of identical Deathwing.

Then, you should not be sad, because the DW list posted in BOK is incorrect.

I was the dark angel that played the finals, and my army was this:

Belial with thunder hammer and shield

Terminator squad with apothecary and banner, 4 hammers, 1 chainfist&heavy flamer

Terminator squad with 4 hammers and 1 chainfist&heavy flamer

Terminator squad with 5 hammers and one cyclone

2xTerminator squad with 2 hammers, 1 chainfist&storm bolter, 1 powerfist&storm bolter, 1 powerfist&storm bolter&cyclone

Land Raider

Land Raider Crusader

Its not original because it's a pure deathwing, but it's not just a spam list.

And answering to NoArmorSave, i found that playing wiht two LR is mandatory. If you don't use them, your mobility is very limited, and once you deep strike it is very difficult to make rectifications during the game.

blood angel wrote:Fatigue was a huge factor during the weekend. I was living off of five hour energy and monsters. I literally got less than 45 mins of sleep before the Champs. I am hoping the structure is a bit different next year to account for that.

I was right there with you. I got 2.5 hours sleep the night before and I was soooo tired. Just wiped out. Getting gak faced drunk on Saturday wasn't helping me, either!

@Reecius: I posted this in the other thread, but that one fell behind, so...

What would you have brought if you had the chance for Eldar? You mentioned that you only brought the list you did because it was painted. I thought it was an interesting list and I'm tempted to play around with it.

Boldo wrote:
Its not original because it's a pure deathwing, but it's not just a spam list.

There aren't really too many combinations you can do with Deathwing, so anyone claiming originality would be tough. I like that you didn't opt to just spam TH/SS squads with CMLs, and took a couple of Heavy Flamers (love template weapons). Again, congrats on your top 16 finish, and thank you for posting here to give us the true list.

calypso2ts wrote:I was a bit skeptical when I first saw Bill Kim's list too (not that it did not work, it clearly does but WHY does it work). Here are my thoughts (I do not claim to be one of the best Daemon players, I have competed in one GT with them to moderate success in the actual battles). So an actual analysis of Bill Kim's list.

Impressive - you pretty much nailed the thinking behind my list. Pretty spot on for most of it. I'll add my comments as I go.

calypso2ts wrote:It is pretty standard in a Fateweaver list to bring along a Bloodthirster with Unholy Might and Blessing of the Blood God. That costs somewhere around 275 points (from memory). For another 25 points you can bring Skar. You lose wings (gain fleet), gain Breath, and Instrument and Lose Blessing. Skar also has a built in Might so that upgrade is there.

More importantly, you can reroll your attacks against everything in CC, which means you can re-roll your attacks against transports (effectively you double the number of hits against those moving at cruising speed and add 25% more against hose moving at combat speed).

Pretty spot on. From a playing standpoint, the army is about speed. From a mathhammer standpoint, its all about stacking multipliers and synergy. It does have some point failure sources, but that's the gamble I was making (I wouldn't lose key units e.g. fateweaver/skarbrand too early - worked well for me on Friday, not so well (obviously) on Sunday).

calypso2ts wrote:
The next real choice in a Daemon army is to bring either Crushers or Fiends. Expecting a large number of Grey Knights there is really only the option of Fiends, since they can DS outside Warp Quake and still make it into combat the next turn. Unholy Might is the natural upgrade here for some wound allocation and to ID the occasional T3 chump.

Yep. As far as I'm concerned, if you take crushers when you expect to see a lot of grey knights, I just don't see how that works. Way too difficult to set it up so you get the charge, and the warp quake factor just makes them even more useless. I've been theorizing that the Chester (something that Brad Chester and I came up with a few years ago - 8 Bloodcrushers + Skulltaker & 3 Heralds on Juggers) would still work, but I was hesitant to try it without major playtesting, something I don't honestly get a whole lot of chances to do. I've only been playing about twice a month on average, and the local meta is heavily against hyper-competitive spam lists for normal play. Plus in the local league I was playing my Eldar.

calypso2ts wrote:
How many Fiend units to take really depends on the rest of your list - I am not sure the total motivation to take two units and Seekers rather than three units, but I will speculate in a moment.

More comments later, since the reason I didn't take 3 largely revolves around wanting to take seekers.

calypso2ts wrote:
For troops, Horrors with Bolt are a solid option to drop back and take some pot shots. In most games you need to sit on at least one or two objectives at range from the enemy and having some shooting at AP 4 is useful. These are pretty standard and I agree with needing 4 troop choices overall (especially when you have 15 T3 models.

If I could have squeezed in a fourth horror squad, I would have. I just ran out of points.

calypso2ts wrote:
The unique choice is the large brick of Bloodletters. These guys carry the one of two Icons in the army and are dangerous to get to know better - they need to be a bit larger to carry an icon and they are the slowest CC unit in the army. I look at this as a unit that comes down midfield (or in a key location) and threatens anything nearby while weathering any shooting.

I usually run 16, but had to drop 2 to squeeze in fateweaver. Their function is more or less what you identified. Either drop in close to support the seekers, or drop a bit farther forward to provide an entry point with the icon. Even with only 14, very few units in the game will willingly charge them, and dropped into cover, they can weather a lot of fire by going to ground and gaining a 3+ cover save.

To be honest, I'm thinking of replacing them with a larger block of Daemonettes with an Icon.

calypso2ts wrote:
Finally we get to the unit of Seekers. These guys are killing machines in combination with Skar and can rip vehicles apart. I think there are four reasons to take these over a third unit of Fiends. (1) They can carry an icon - otherwise you need a more durable troop unit other than the Bloodletters, (2) They have assault and defensive grenades so they can pry units out of cover, (3) They put out 80 attacks on the charge... (4) a unit of Fiends leaves you with about 100 spare points laying around. You can add another troop unit or add bodies to one, but otherwise you have no good way to spend those (maybe 3 flamers but they do not really have the same synergy that Seekers do).

They are also surprisingly resilient, in large numbers. The 4+ cover save is really easy to get, and it takes a lot of fire to knock them down. Dropped into or near cover, they provide a 4+ cover save for everything behind them. The most important "hidden" factor has to do with the fact that they're mounted on bike/cav bases. On arrival, they are ridiculously flexible in terms of placement. And can be deployed in an extremely compact formation, extremely spread out formation, and a lot of stuff in between, in some really crazy shapes.

calypso2ts wrote:
Overall I really like this list because it does some things that most Daemon lists cannot . It answers the Transport question with Skar, rather than by pushing in a bunch of sub-par shooting, it has a lot of speed and it can pry units out of cover with the Seekers. Further, its speed means it will get the charge on GK (which is absolutely critical in that matchup due to psyk outs) and Skar is only a force multiplier for the Daemon player in those games too.

As for wave splits, I did not see any of Bill Kim's games, but the generic option was probably something like...

Fate, Skar, Fiends x2 Seekers
Horrors x3, Bloodletters

Like all Daemon lists, if Skar and Fate stay out for a while after getting a non-preferred wave it could be bad (that is 1/3 of the army) but in a format with a lot of KP missions, this list can win games with only one or two models left on the table.

Yep. That's pretty much my standard split with this build. If the primary comes in, it presents an amazing amount of hitting power early, allowing the secondary to hold objectives and mop up. If the secondary comes in, everything pretty much hides and waits for the big guns to arrive.

On Sunday, my secondary came in every single game. The first was a tough one, and I almost eaked a draw (and I think might have won on VPs), but the game went on to turn 6 and I got wiped. The second game had some bad reserve rolls, and the terrain ended up being very unfriendly. The third game had some ridiculously bad rolls (Fateweaver failing 6 of 12 saves after re-rolls was a particular favorite of mine) and I made some key errors (like forgetting about the automatic 6" waagh). The fourth game I won, despite the secondary coming in first.


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RiTides wrote:

derek wrote:Congrats to the players in the top 16, while those lists may not be the super optimized lists (which is open to debate, of course), they worked for them on that weekend in that event, and that's really all you can ask for from any list.

I've seen Centurion99's list prior to this, not from a tournament, but from when he posted painted shots of the army. He's been playing that list for a while now, going on 2-3 years if I'm recalling how long ago he first posted it correctly. He knows his list, and is a good player, and I'm not surprised that he made the top 16 field amongst what people consider "better" codices. I think the only top 16 list I'm surprised by is the Deathwing list including 2 Land Raiders and no speeders, but kudos to that player for having the skill to take a 2 Land Raider list that far in the tournament.

Agreed! Congrats to Bill, it was awesome to meet you

Also thanks to calypso2ts for the detailed analysis of his list. I love seeing a supposedly "non-optimized" army take a high placing (5th, right?) in such a big event . Familiarity, player skill, and also catching the opponent by surprise all play a bit of a role, I'm sure.

Definitely good to meet you too! Glad I got to stay til Monday and enjoy Sunday night.

derek wrote:Congrats to the players in the top 16, while those lists may not be the super optimized lists (which is open to debate, of course), they worked for them on that weekend in that event, and that's really all you can ask for from any list.

I've seen Centurion99's list prior to this, not from a tournament, but from when he posted painted shots of the army. He's been playing that list for a while now, going on 2-3 years if I'm recalling how long ago he first posted it correctly. He knows his list, and is a good player, and I'm not surprised that he made the top 16 field amongst what people consider "better" codices. I think the only top 16 list I'm surprised by is the Deathwing list including 2 Land Raiders and no speeders, but kudos to that player for having the skill to take a 2 Land Raider list that far in the tournament.

Thanks. The list I used definitely has its weaknesses. I've only been using the fiend/seeker/skarbrand combo since last summer, though. Added Fateweaver in for the 'Ard Boyz, and figured out a way to chop 2500 to 1850.

steinerp wrote:As someone who plays Bill regularly I can in 100% honesty say that it is his fault for this thread and not NoArmorSave. Probably half the reason he plays that list is to stir up the internet when he does well.

Me. Stir up controversy on the interwebs? Never?

steinerp wrote:
Which is because of the other 50%, he knows his list, he has tuned it and knows how to play it. Is the list perfect? No, but no list is and not many people run howling banshees. He was one of the first I saw to run mass bloodcrushers but he has since dropped for the extra speed of the the fiends.It works for him. Does it work for you? Irrelevant. One thing a lot of these lists show is that tuned and spammed are not equivalent.

Now who do we know who showed me what happens when howling banshees meet my units.

Seeing that list of what armies were popular at Adepticon has made me sick.

Owning a Draigowing army is now not sitting well with me.

I think I actually want to start one of the fringe armies just to prove they are not all bad.

derek wrote:

Boldo wrote:
Its not original because it's a pure deathwing, but it's not just a spam list.

There aren't really too many combinations you can do with Deathwing, so anyone claiming originality would be tough. I like that you didn't opt to just spam TH/SS squads with CMLs, and took a couple of Heavy Flamers (love template weapons). Again, congrats on your top 16 finish, and thank you for posting here to give us the true list.

Thanks, it was really hard.

The spam of TH&SS with cyclones might look the best combination for DW, but i think that other configurations can help you to manage different situations. For example, the chain fists are very important, especially when you have to stop a tank shock or need to open a Land Raider at close combat in a desperate move. Cyclone is the best heavy weapon, but I found that i couldn't use very often those in the two units embarked.

Moreover, the mix configuration of squads 4 and 5 let you do some good allocations of low AP wounds, which could save you the day. And finally, when using different configurations your rival won't have so easy to know your intentions, and you make him more difficult to deal with them.

Cheers

And to be honest, I wasn't going to respond, but there's a few points.

NoArmorSave wrote:
You are completey incorrect here. If you even think there will be Dragio Wing players competing, you have got to have Crushers. Fiends evaporate virtually instanlty to Paladins. Large units of Crushers supported by Fateweaver and a Bloodthirster with might & blessing will destroy them in assault. Even without Draigo Wing involved, I would take no more than 1 unit of Fiends at the 2K level, and may not even bring them at all.

If I'm playing against a Dragowing, the key is really simple. Hitting the paladins with everything, all at once. When a Draigowing is on the field, I just jump on it with all the seekers and fiends, skarbrand if possible, and make sure Fateweaver is in range to provide support. Forcing them to spread attacks among multiple units keeps my units alive and viable, and I'm generally inflicting more wounds than they can deal with, even with saves and rerolls.

NoArmorSave wrote:
You need Plaguebearers. Especially with the almost 100% focus on objectives at these major events. Bolt is unreliable and "mickey mouse" IMHO. Bloodcrushers will absolutely wreck a non AV14 mech wall on the assault. I have never had any problems opening transports in my list, and there are answers for AV14.

Horrors hold up surprisingly well. Against shooting, they seem to survive for me nearly as well. In assault, they're totally worthless, but if they're getting assaulted, I've generally already lost. And what is 'mickey mouse?"

Centurian99 wrote:And to be honest, I wasn't going to respond, but there's a few points.

NoArmorSave wrote:
You are completey incorrect here. If you even think there will be Dragio Wing players competing, you have got to have Crushers. Fiends evaporate virtually instanlty to Paladins. Large units of Crushers supported by Fateweaver and a Bloodthirster with might & blessing will destroy them in assault. Even without Draigo Wing involved, I would take no more than 1 unit of Fiends at the 2K level, and may not even bring them at all.

If I'm playing against a Dragowing, the key is really simple. Hitting the paladins with everything, all at once. When a Draigowing is on the field, I just jump on it with all the seekers and fiends, skarbrand if possible, and make sure Fateweaver is in range to provide support. Forcing them to spread attacks among multiple units keeps my units alive and viable, and I'm generally inflicting more wounds than they can deal with, even with saves and rerolls.

NoArmorSave wrote:
You need Plaguebearers. Especially with the almost 100% focus on objectives at these major events. Bolt is unreliable and "mickey mouse" IMHO. Bloodcrushers will absolutely wreck a non AV14 mech wall on the assault. I have never had any problems opening transports in my list, and there are answers for AV14.

Horrors hold up surprisingly well. Against shooting, they seem to survive for me nearly as well. In assault, they're totally worthless, but if they're getting assaulted, I've generally already lost. And what is 'mickey mouse?"

"If I'm playing against a Dragowing, the key is really simple. Hitting the paladins with everything, all at once. When a Draigowing is on the field, I just jump on it with all the seekers and fiends, skarbrand if possible, and make sure Fateweaver is in range to provide support. Forcing them to spread attacks among multiple units keeps my units alive and viable, and I'm generally inflicting more wounds than they can deal with, even with saves and rerolls."

That doesn't work. 3 full units of fiends and all of your seekers would wipe against Draigo+Librarian and a fully allocated brick of 10 Paladins. They will die in droves.
You will need at least 2 big units of Crushers to overcome it. It also requires a detailed understanding of the matchup, and skill\positioning is critical.


"Horrors hold up surprisingly well. Against shooting, they seem to survive for me nearly as well. In assault, they're totally worthless, but if they're getting assaulted, I've generally already lost. And what is 'mickey mouse?"

Mickey Mouse; relying on the bolt in each horror squad to open transports. It just isn't reliable, and Horrors are not nearly as survivable as Plaguebearers. They also cost more points.

Boldo wrote:
Thanks, it was really hard.

The spam of TH&SS with cyclones might look the best combination for DW, but i think that other configurations can help you to manage different situations. For example, the chain fists are very important, especially when you have to stop a tank shock or need to open a Land Raider at close combat in a desperate move. Cyclone is the best heavy weapon, but I found that i couldn't use very often those in the two units embarked.

Moreover, the mix configuration of squads 4 and 5 let you do some good allocations of low AP wounds, which could save you the day. And finally, when using different configurations your rival won't have so easy to know your intentions, and you make him more difficult to deal with them.

Cheers

It's been awhile since I was pushing DW across the table, but my own experiences match with your points about Chainfists (usually have one in every squad save my all TH/SS one), and Cyclone's not getting used much in Raiders. I think the only questions I have left is how much the Land Raiders held up against opponent shooting (a lot of the Grey Knight lists look like they'd be relying on Str7 rending to destroy them), and whether you had anything you would change about your list.

Centurian99 wrote:

derek wrote:Congrats to the players in the top 16, while those lists may not be the super optimized lists (which is open to debate, of course), they worked for them on that weekend in that event, and that's really all you can ask for from any list.

I've seen Centurion99's list prior to this, not from a tournament, but from when he posted painted shots of the army. He's been playing that list for a while now, going on 2-3 years if I'm recalling how long ago he first posted it correctly. He knows his list, and is a good player, and I'm not surprised that he made the top 16 field amongst what people consider "better" codices. I think the only top 16 list I'm surprised by is the Deathwing list including 2 Land Raiders and no speeders, but kudos to that player for having the skill to take a 2 Land Raider list that far in the tournament.

Thanks. The list I used definitely has its weaknesses. I've only been using the fiend/seeker/skarbrand combo since last summer, though. Added Fateweaver in for the 'Ard Boyz, and figured out a way to chop 2500 to 1850.

I just remember the version that you posted it on the FC forums, mostly because I liked the Blue Scribes conversion. Meant to say your army anyway, and not your list, since the point was you've been playing Demons for a few years now, and most people playing an army that long are usually more in tune with how it plays.

Not trying to change the topic or anything, but does anyone have a link to the ork list...was it just battlewagon spam, or did it do something different.

derek wrote: I think the only questions I have left is how much the Land Raiders held up against opponent shooting (a lot of the Grey Knight lists look like they'd be relying on Str7 rending to destroy them), and whether you had anything you would change about your list.

I played against 4 GK, and by doing my best and having good rolls i was able to beat 3. The Raiders did well, and survived most of these games. But this happened because i tried to not expose to much them under psycannon fire; i always planned the game keeping safe distances as much as possible. When it was inevitable, you can just find some cover and pray to the Emperor. If anything can resist a bit of S7 rending fire thats a Land Raider.

What to change in the list?. I would like psychic defense with a librarian. However now that is impossible (L9 librarian sucks), so i had to live with that. You can take out one terminator squad an get three typhoon speeders, but i discard this option when i took a look at the missions in Adepticon. I needed as many troops as possible, and with the actual metagame against mech armies those 3 armor 10 skimmers would have been very bad for me in anihilation.

Let's see with the new codex. I just hope that JJ is not involved on this project; i don't want a overpowered codex, but i miss more variety and playable units.

Cheers.

Jose, it was really cool seeing your stuff in play. I really liked that your army was a mix of "fluff" and "crunch", having a solid theme as well as being well-built to compete. It was also awesome seeing that you are clearly into the story aspect of the Dark Angels; made me wish to get in a game against you with my Fallen Angels.

Mannahnin wrote:Jose, it was really cool seeing your stuff in play. I really liked that your army was a mix of "fluff" and "crunch", having a solid theme as well as being well-built to compete. It was also awesome seeing that you are clearly into the story aspect of the Dark Angels; made me wish to get in a game against you with my Fallen Angels.

I believe that your army is like your sword. You must respect it, because it fights for you. If you play thinking like this, you might do great things.

It would be an honor to play against you and your men Mannahnin. Hope we can arrange that game some day.

Cheers.

I am entirely of the same opinion, Boldo. This is part of why I keep using my Chaos, and some Blood Angels, and will not field GK. I look forward to it. Hopefully we can meet up at another event some time.

krootman. wrote:Not trying to change the topic or anything, but does anyone have a link to the ork list...was it just battlewagon spam, or did it do something different.

Going from memory...
Ghaz
Big Mek
4 Battlewagons
Burna Boyz
3 Shoota boyz
Snikkrot
2 Deffkoptas

Not sure about the exact upgrades and the like.


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I think there might have been a trukk boyz squad in there.

Centurian99 wrote:
Impressive - you pretty much nailed the thinking behind my list. Pretty spot on for most of it. I'll add my comments as I go.

I had been thinking about using Skar in the same way with my Daemons, although I tend to bring diverse lists and people tend to frown on special characters. I appreciate the time you took to respond to my comments!

Centurian99 wrote:
To be honest, I'm thinking of replacing them with a larger block of Daemonettes with an Icon.

Bah! I was thinking the same thing on this, I really like Daemonettes for units sitting in cover (Defensive Grenades) and they add more speed to the list if you really need it. They also do not kill quite as quickly as Bloodletters, which can keep you in combat a turn when you need it. Edit: They also almost always catch a unit that flees combat which is an underestimated benefit.

Centurian99 wrote:
They are also surprisingly resilient, in large numbers. The 4+ cover save is really easy to get, and it takes a lot of fire to knock them down. Dropped into or near cover, they provide a 4+ cover save for everything behind them. The most important "hidden" factor has to do with the fact that they're mounted on bike/cav bases. On arrival, they are ridiculously flexible in terms of placement. And can be deployed in an extremely compact formation, extremely spread out formation, and a lot of stuff in between, in some really crazy shapes.

This has been my exact experience with them, I run a unit of 12 (I will probably go higher) and you can really use/abuse the bases to setup multi-assaults, link combat, and get in cover.

I am a little skeptical of the crusher deathstar, I think it would smash GK, but it is so slow...

Centurian99 wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:I was a bit skeptical when I first saw Bill Kim's list too (not that it did not work, it clearly does but WHY does it work). Here are my thoughts (I do not claim to be one of the best Daemon players, I have competed in one GT with them to moderate success in the actual battles). So an actual analysis of Bill Kim's list.

Impressive - you pretty much nailed the thinking behind my list. Pretty spot on for most of it. I'll add my comments as I go.

It was really cool to read your thoughts behind the list choices and strategy used with it... I wish all the top placers would do this!

Centurian99 wrote:

krootman. wrote:Not trying to change the topic or anything, but does anyone have a link to the ork list...was it just battlewagon spam, or did it do something different.

Going from memory...
Ghaz
Big Mek
4 Battlewagons
Burna Boyz
3 Shoota boyz
Snikkrot
2 Deffkoptas

Not sure about the exact upgrades and the like.


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Figured as much, thanks for the info. Props to him! I mean no disrespect to the gk players as i totally understand wanting to win.
I think there might have been a trukk boyz squad in there.