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I agree with all of those except the Wraithlord (though I use it myself cause I like them) they're more of a novelty and if they're the only target for anti-tank you're fielding they will die rather quickly. Of course that toughness 8 can be quite fun (immune to S4 and lower) and allows it to tarpit if it really needs to.

the reason I started my eldar army was watchign a expert eldar player, he took a TAC list and smashed space puppies vampire marines, and imp guard in the same day with huge wins over them all, he also was making sure to use each unit only for what i was meant to do.

the old addage of sledgehammer vs scapel is appropriate most armies have units that are good at multiple things but not amazing at one specific thing, eldar units are tailor made for one specific task and only that task

pretre wrote:

felixander wrote:Don't be afraid to list tailor if you're fighting a T1 army. If they call you out on it just use the 4th edition codex excuse =P

Or just make an army that is a TAC list. You can still do that with Eldar without compromising your ethics.

But it's nice to win sometimes and there are a lot more armies that are bad matchhups than others have to deal with. Most people seem to make their TAC just spam shots to kill hordes or force armor saves. Decent enough, I guess.

Edit: This depends on where you go. I played in a very non-competitive environment so I won a lot there. If you are in a very competitive area where BA/SW/GK cheese armies are abound, you'll have some problems. YMMV

I think wraithlords are great. I run three. I always love the look on an opponent's face when he tries to shoot them with melta and I tell him he's wounding on a 4+. Some folks can't seem to grasp that they're MCs. They want to stun them or blow guns off and are shocked when they just can't. I've never lost all of my wraithlords. I usually lose just one.

I run the avatar too and he usually draws the majority of AT fire because I use him aggressively to draw fire and with fortune he usually absorbs quite a bit before going down. His immunity to melta is another thing that causes brain freeze in some opponents.

Puscifer wrote:Can Eldar smash armies with overwhelming firepower?

The only armies that can do this are Tau and Imperial Guard. But yes, Eldar can lay down a decent amount of firepower.

Joey wrote:A unit of doomed paladins charged by 10 howling banshees probably wouldn't call them underpowered

Well that is ultimately the fault of the GK player, though, because the easiest way to deal with banshees is to shoot them to pieces or to charge them yourselfs. If you let them get into position to charge you then you deserve to be doomed. Fighting eldar is all about taking their specialists out of their element. Let the banshees charge you and it will hurt. Let the fire dragons close to your armor and it will hurt. Shoot the banshees like crazy and assault the fire dragons and they die pretty easily and pretty quickly.

Skriker

felixander wrote:But it's nice to win sometimes and there are a lot more armies that are bad matchhups than others have to deal with. Most people seem to make their TAC just spam shots to kill hordes or force armor saves. Decent enough, I guess.

Edit: This depends on where you go. I played in a very non-competitive environment so I won a lot there. If you are in a very competitive area where BA/SW/GK cheese armies are abound, you'll have some problems. YMMV

Maybe you're misunderstanding what I mean. I mean TAC as in Take All Comers. Make a list that will deal with all potential opponents you could meet. Spamming shots to kill hordes and force armor saves isn't TAC because it can't deal with anything that isn't a foot horde.

Puscifer wrote:Can Eldar smash armies with overwhelming firepower?

Eldar can lay down some fire, but their biggest shooting strength is that aside from heavy weapons, every other weapon in an eldar army is a pistol or assault weapon, thus they can lay down their fire at full range and keep moving towards you and then assault you. That can make a big difference at times. Rapid fire weapons can't be fired if you intend to assault and can't be fired at long range if you move at all.

Skriker

pretre wrote:

felixander wrote:But it's nice to win sometimes and there are a lot more armies that are bad matchhups than others have to deal with. Most people seem to make their TAC just spam shots to kill hordes or force armor saves. Decent enough, I guess.

Edit: This depends on where you go. I played in a very non-competitive environment so I won a lot there. If you are in a very competitive area where BA/SW/GK cheese armies are abound, you'll have some problems. YMMV

Maybe you're misunderstanding what I mean. I mean TAC as in Take All Comers. Make a list that will deal with all potential opponents you could meet. Spamming shots to kill hordes and force armor saves isn't TAC because it can't deal with anything that isn't a foot horde.

I think the confusion is mutual. I didn't mean that it was the ONLY thing you should take. And yes, spam SL actually does work well against MEQ and light AV too. I am aware of what TAC but thanks for checking

One of our local players has a painful eldar list. 3 wraithlords, 1 FW WraithSeer, seer council, pathfinders and Guardians. All that T8 on the board makes him hard to get rid off. Oh almost for got the ever annoying squad of Walkers with Scatter Lasers.

If he's got 3 wraithlords and War Walkers in the same army than I really wanna see how he magiced that in, unless you guys break normal FOC

I personally am looking forward to getting my Eldar army painted so I can field them. I have a single Wraithlord simply because I think they look awesome, and it's abilities are the icing on the cake. The army is themed as a Corsair army that is tied to Saim-Hann, so the bulk is 2x squads of Jetbike guardians (5 bikes each, one each has a Shuriken Cannon), Dire Avengers and Guardians each in a pair of Wave Serpents, a squad of 3x Shining Spears, a pair of Vypers and a squad of Swooping Hawks.

basically it's an army of units I like, rather than the best meta. After the above I add in a squad of Banshees, Striking Scorpions, some Dark Reapers, and some Warlock attachments. Maybe even a squad of Kroot Carnivore Mercs for some HtH fun, because the games I play will allow all the Chapter Approved stuff from 3rd ed.

I really want a Wraithseer from FW, but i don't want to have to buy an entire IA book for just it's rules.

Every army I ever run has been chosen because it either looked cool or I had an awesome story I thought up using them. I've ended up with some more competitive armies (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Grey Knights) on this route, as well as some less competitive armies (old Necrons, Tau, Dark Angels).

As far as building a list goes, start with what jumps out at you for whatever reason. Then take a Farseer as your first HQ choice, they are the best-looking HQ models in the game and strong contenders for most powerful non-Special-Character.

Once you've got a few units, build a battle plan revolving around their interaction, absolutely nothing can exist in a vacuum in the Eldar list. I liked Striking Scorpions early on, so I added a few Rangers to them in order to build a strong forward presence early with Infiltrate, then I would use Falcons and Wave Serpent-mounted Dire Avengers to rush in and support the forward base, with a few Dark Reapers to provide covering fire.

A brief overview of the army list:

HQ
Farseer: Essential. It's possible to win without a Farseer, but they're easily tide-turners in their own right; a cleverly-applied Farseer makes all the difference in a close game, or turns a narrow victory into a solid rout. A small Warlock bodyguard can be a powerful asset when it comes to general close-ranged destructive capability; mounting the whole unit on Jetbikes isn't usually advisable unless you've got a lot of Jetbikes in Troops and need to keep up with them. Save a Falcon for the unit if you take a bodyguard.
Autarch: Good cheap combat HQ, it's best not to go overboard on the toys. One 70pt Autarch with a power sword can stand up to most armies' expensive HQ models on his own; try to kit him to support a specific unit.
Avatar: I don't like him, he's big, expensive, slow, and can't take much of a punch. If you use the Avatar, it's best to screen him with smaller units (an ablative shield of Storm Guardians, for instance) to make sure he gets to close combat.

Special Characters
Eldrad: Easily the best Special Character in the Eldar Codex, and on his own one of the best in the game. Take everything that's cool about a Farseer and multiply that by several factors of awesome.
Yriel: I don't use him, he's an unsubtle beatstick from what I've read. Point him at the bad guys, drop the Eye of Wrath, and then send in some other assault troops to clean up the mess he left behind.
Phoenix Lords: There are no subtle tricks here, the Phoenix Lords are straight-up punishing combat monstrosities. Focus on the targets you'd normally focus their Aspect on and you'll be on the right track.

Elites
Striking Scorpions: Tougher than most Eldar, Infiltrate, Stealth, and 3+ saves let them get to close combat easily. They're best used against more numerous or lightly-armored infantry and vehicles. Both Exarch powers are worthwhile, switching between the Biting Blade and the Scorpion's Claw is mainly a matter of preference.
Howling Banshees: Nowhere near as tough as Striking Scorpions, they're better used in a counter-assault supporting role for more stationary Eldar armies. The Executioner is the important Exarch weapon, Mirrorswords and the Triskele do have their uses but the Executioner addresses the Banshees' prime weakness (low Strength). Best used against low-Toughness armored people (Terminators and the like).
Harlequins: Horribly expensive and somewhat situational, they're very, very tough if used in a foot army. Always take the Shadowseer, the other two upgrade characters are optional.
Fire Dragons: A perennial favorite amongst munchkins everywhere, they tend to be simply flung forwards in a transport to blow up the biggest, nastiest thing they can find. Nothing in an Eldar list is truly expendable and nothing should be used in isolation; ideally, use the speed of their transport to bring the Fire Dragons' guns to bear on some isolated vehicle off to the side.
Wraithguard: Expensive, but capable. The main bar to using them in quantity is the fact that they're $15 a pop (GW, if you're reading this, I would totally buy a few boxes if we got plastic Wraithguard with the next Codex, unless you nerf them). Ideally, they should be loaded into a Wave Serpent and used to hunt big things (Terminators, vehicles, Monstrous Creatures...).

Troops
Dire Avengers: Short-ranged anti-infantry, they really do need a Wave Serpent to be effective. Avoid the temptation to give the Exarch any close-combat upgrades, they shouldn't be in close combat in the first place.
Guardian Defenders: The point of these people is the heavy weapon platforms. Hide them in cover (using a Warlock with Conceal if necessary) and snipe whatever your heavy weapon is supposed to be shooting at.
Storm Guardians: Generally an unfavored choice; they're not all that useful. If taken on foot take a big blob and a Warlock with Conceal to get them close enough to do some damage; one other idea I've been toying with is taking a minimum unit with two fusion guns and a Singing Spear Warlock in a Wave Serpent as a sort of poor-man's Fire Dragon unit.
Rangers: Mostly useful because you can upgrade them to Pathfinders and make them invincible (not much will break through a 2+ cover save in a ruined building). They lack offensive punch, but have some situational utility against small heavy-infantry units.

Transport
Wave Serpent: The workhorse of mechanized lists, one of the fastest and toughest Dedicated Transports in the entire metagame. Expensive. Take whatever guns you're lacking on your Wave Serpents; I find them to be a good place to put Bright Lances because unlike most BS3 tanks and Guardian Defender squads a Wave Serpent's Bright Lances are twin-linked and thus have a good deal better chance of hitting anything. As far as vehicle upgrades go, none of them are strictly necessary; spirit stones aren't worthwhile, star engines are useless (you already move 24" a turn flat-out, if you've deployed well there's nowhere you can't get that you'd need to on 24" a turn), vectored engines are worth it if you think you're going to be playing a highly-mobile game.

Fast Attack:
Shining Spears: They'd be viable if they were a s***load cheaper, as-is they're point sinks that can't do much.
Warp Spiders: Good against foes with lots of AV10 vehicles (which counts those that are only AV10 on the rear, Warp Spiders can get places very easily). Avoid powerblades/hit and run, you shouldn't be getting them into close combat.
Swooping Hawks: They'll make their points back in a heartbeat against skimmer-heavy armies, against other foes they are mediocre at best. I bring a unit or two along against Guard just in case; Skyleap is helpful for the additional grenade pack drops, Intercept is pretty much the reason to take them.
Vypers: Inefficient, you've got better heavy-weapon platforms elsewhere. Their prime ability is in getting a scatter laser into an enemy vehicle's rear arc without dying.

Heavy Support
Falcons: Not the most efficient of units, I personally have a great fondness for them. Their great strength is in the sheer volume of fire they can put out, the second weapon should be chosen to play to the strengths of the pulse laser (starcannons and scatter lasers are best) and the tank should be pointed at heavy infantry. Always remember their transport capacity, using them to tote small Farseer/Warlock units close to the enemy is a powerful tactic.
Fire Prisms: Cheap, long-ranged, and powerful. A favorite of the competitive community these days, avoid combining fire unless it's really necessary. The S9 focused shot from one prism cannon should be plenty to handle most tanks and heavy infantry, the dispersed shot will punch holes in light infantry just as easily.
War Walkers: Efficient methods of getting a lot of guns in one place at one time. Role and optimal target depends on gun selection; Scatter Lasers and Starcannons should focus on heavy infantry and light tanks, Bright Lances should focus on heavy tanks, and Missile Launchers should focus on light infantry and light/medium tanks.
Support weapon platforms: I've never used one, I don't intend to start. I do think it's funny that Forge World has models for Falcon variants mounting two of the support platform guns (Warp Hunter has a D-cannon, Night Spinner has a Shadow Weaver), though.
Dark Reapers: A good choice for a starting army since you get a full 217-pt squad out of one $35 box. Powerful anti-heavy-infantry, the missile launcher can be used to snipe tanks but it isn't an optimal role for the unit. Buy one Exarch power but not both if you take them.
Wraithlord: Unholy durability and great strength, but very, very slow (in terms of movement and close-combat prowess, as a matter of fact). Their strength is in the fact that everyone's scared of them, but they're hard to kill. I like taking a cheap Wraithlord with minimal upgrades to attract fire; in a pinch, he's got flamers for handling light infantry and can chop up/bog down tanks and heavy infantry in close combat.

There's a good way to come up with battle plans for every combination of units in the Codex, pick a couple of things that look cool and build a plan around that.

Joey wrote:A unit of doomed paladins charged by 10 howling banshees probably wouldn't call them underpowered

I'm curious why you think this. 10 Banshees with an Executioner Exarch will do about 6 unsaved wounds against Doomed Paladins on the charge, assuming none of them have regular Swords nor a Warding Stave. Against a 10 man squad, that's nothing, and the Paladins will kill all the Banshees in return on average. Even against a 5 man squad, that ends up being about one dead, due to the inevitable wound allocation shenanigans. 4 Paladins get 8 FW attacks back, hitting on 3's and maybe wounding on 2's due to Hammerhand. So, that's 4.44 dead Banshees in return, which probably should be rounded up to 5 because I didn't account for the inevitable Master Crafted weapons. You do win combat, but I'd hate to see what happens next turn, where many of the Paladins likely hit first. I'd also hope an IC hadn't joined the Paladins; adding Draigo to the mix wouldn't be very helpful, and even a Librarian would tilt things in favor of the Paladins.

Now, I suppose you could soften the Paladins up first, but the bottom line is that Banshees are pretty underwhelming here.

Im starting to see the combination style gameplay you are suggesting. The army is indeed, the right tool for the right job.


My favourite unit in the Eldar Codex are the Dark Reapers.

Eldar can put out a lot of S6 shots in a firing phase meaning only needing to wound on a 2 against most units. That with guide and doom can cause a silly amount of saving throws.

My brother in-law runs a pretty solid list using Wave serpents as anti tank (with fire dragons) scatter laser war walkers and scatter laser vipers.

He also runs a wraithlord but is always really unlucky with him (we all that one unit that always misses right).

The ability to get units like fire dragons in close and put out 6 melta shots against AV14 vehicles will mean one dead landraider or Leman Russ.

Eldar have always been my personal favorite force. AnomanderRake gave an awesome overveiw of them and what works, what doesn't. Great thing about Eldar is you can make up a force that can take to peices a specific kind of force. They unfortunately are not very forgiving when it comes to having an 'all around' force. Best thing to do, no matter what force you decide to take, is to take transports. Your toughness 3 armor save 5+ troops are gonna get chewed and spit out or ID pretty quick if you dont have them protected. Farseers as already stated are a must. Guide and doom are just wonderful abilities and will make a huge difference in a combat round. Especially if you take Eldrad pushing out 2 psychic abilities in a turn. I drool when I think about a unit of dire avengers with guide and doom on a mob of nids or boyz . This is even more deadly on a unit of reapers against any MEQ.

Just remember to make assaulty units attack non-assaulty units, and shooty attack assaulty and stay out of their way. if you take advantage of eldar mobility (IE wave serpents as transports) and some fleet of foot to get out of some tough situations, you will do fine. You really gotta make sure not to run your CC unit into a unit of termies and just assume they will do fine cause they are built for CC. Against High invul high toughness units you are gonna wanna soften them up with shooting or do a multiple unit assault. You may do some damage on the first turn, but eldar rarely do well against the counter assault. It's gonna take time to use them well, so just be patient and lick your wounds for a bit....eventually you will be the one winning games. Especially when they have a new dex out (hopefully).

So basically its Mechdar or Footdar.

I might go Footdar with an Aspect twist.

Looking at possibly using the following units:

HQ - I'll come back to that.

Elites
Fire Dragons.
Scorpions.
Banshees.

Troops
2 Squads of Dire Avengers.
Pathfinders.
Several Squads of Guardians with Scatter Laser or Bright Lance platforms.

Fast Attack
Warp Spiders.
Swooping Hawks.

Heavy Support
Dark Reapers.
2 Squads of Walkers with Scatter Lasers.

My idea is to surgically cut into my opponent's army using the finesse of the Aspect Warriors.

Any advice would be great, especially with the HQ.

Farseer and Avatar is the standard setup for Footdar; Farseer for being a Farseer, Avatar for giving a fearless-bubble.

I'm looking at my Heavy Support choices and I really want a unit of Reapers, so the rest has to be made up of Walkers and Wraithlord...

Is there any harm in taking one of each or do I need to take two of either the walkers or wraith lord?

I have 2 main eldar armies, one which is all aspect warriors and one with no aspect warriors at all.

Both have had great success, the aspect warriors in particular are VERY effective against space marines of all kinds. Dark reapers with a crack shot exarch with tempest launcher will take out a ten man marine squad in cover every turn comfortably! Imagine what 2 squads can do!

Fire dragons with transports will destroy anything, vehicle or squad, in an MEQ army. Just think about your enemies retaliation against them. Can you prevent it?

Striking scorpions can be used either as a counter attack punch with the Avatar, or outflank to catch vulnerable enemies in their own deployment zone.

The mobility of warp spiders makes them fun and a real thorn in the side of any unit. 2 S6 shots a piece is definately good!

My dire avengers will usually wait and take out any stragglers, mopping up the remnants of the opposition.

My non aspect army relies on sheer weight of S6 fire power with scatter lasers galore!

With eldar the most important things are to remember they are an army of specialists, don't ask them to leave their comfort zones. They all do one thing very, very well. Also, don't leave remnants of the enemy. If you target a squad, do everything you can to eliminate them completely. Eldar are so fragile that even small squads can do a lot of damage to them. Leave nothing to hit back is a strategy that has served me very well!

monkeypuzzle wrote:Both have had great success, the aspect warriors in particular are VERY effective against space marines of all kinds. Dark reapers with a crack shot exarch with tempest launcher will take out a ten man marine squad in cover every turn comfortably! Imagine what 2 squads can do!

I agree with most of what you said but this made me confused. Being generous in the math 4 DRs will take out 2 MEQ per turn if they're in cover (8 shots x .66 (being on the generous end) = 6 hits x .66 (3+ to wound) = 4 x .5 (4+ cover) = 2 dead) if you do the actual math it's slightly lower. Lets say the DA Exarch gets 2 blasts that get 3 MEQ each (if you regularly get 2 hits per scatter then I am taking your dice) so that's 4 hits x .75 (4+ to wound and reroll) = 3 wounds dealt.
That's HALF of what you said. If they're in area cover it's it's 3.5 dead per turn.
I love DA and want them to be better. But you're looking at a 212 points squad taking out 56 points a turn. Now if you get them in the open? You're looking at 7. But that's still being generous on your to hit rolls.

Remember that with crack shot you get to reroll the wounds and the enemy get no cover saves from those blasts! I normally get 5-6 hits per blast.not 3 as they are bunched up in the cover, if they were more spread out then yes it would be less. My exarch normally kills 6-8 on his own (remember BS5 taken off scatters means they don't often scatter far) and the other 8 shots usually mop up the rest!

This is actually what I did. When I first got into 40k I was thinking about playing Marines of some sort, but because they were (and still are) so popular I went for Eldar instead.

monkeypuzzle wrote:Remember that with crack shot you get to reroll the wounds and the enemy get no cover saves from those blasts! I normally get 5-6 hits per blast.not 3 as they are bunched up in the cover, if they were more spread out then yes it would be less. My exarch normally kills 6-8 on his own (remember BS5 taken off scatters means they don't often scatter far) and the other 8 shots usually mop up the rest!

Sorry friend but I think you're gravely mistaken and playing with fools if you can get 6 with a small blast. Maybe if they were deep striking. But reread the Dark Reapers' Crack Shot power. Especially the part where it says the EXARCH gets to reroll wounds and ignores cover, not his unit. If it effected the squad I think Dark Reapers would be fielded a lot more. Wish they'd FAQ it in to help the squad With BS 5 every blast still has probably a ~60% chance of hitting? I'm not 100% Mathhammer Awesome but 33% chance to hit, then you figure under half the time it scatters it stays still. If you have better luck with the dice good. But still. Also I was wrong about the area terrain on those blasts, but still leaves you at a lot lower result than you seem to think. Unless your friends love getting hit in the face they'll spread out. 1.5" radius and 2" squad limitation says something about the tactical quality of your opponents.

The original question does't make sense to me:
You call Eldar a niche army and not overpowered, because it is the only army you can't beat?

Anyway, I never chose an army because of its competitiveness or because it is new.

I choose what looks coolest to me

I'm choosing to play Eldar for three reasons:

1) I got my GK army at a heavily discounted rate and I didn't know they were the top army. I don't want to be just another GK player.

2) I have never beaten Eldar. Not once in twenty years. Not tried Draigowing against them, but I know after seeing a friends Draigowing get torn apart by an Eldar Army, it'll probably happen.

3) Eldar are the only army I've never collected, so I figured, if you can't beat them, join them.

Just bought Eldrad as my first Eldar purchase. Going to have fun painting him.

I did not say the squad got to reroll anything. Whilst I do not play against hardcore tournament gamers often, to describe someone as a fool for occassionally bunching up a unit that is in cover, somewhere within 36" of an enemy squad is just a little harsh. Maybe my dice rolling has been fortunate but it is true that i regularly take out whole MEQ squads in one round of shooting with dark reapers, sometimes they are in cover, sometimes not. With that said I think that is all the OP needs to know about Dark Reapers. They are great against Marines!

Thank you very much for the incite Monkey Puzzle.

I agree with you on the build and the effectiveness of Reapers. I plan to field them in the back field with the Pathfinders flooding the field with covering fire.
Fast shot is useful with the Tempest Launcher against hordes.

How well do Fire Dragons do in Footdar? They seem subpar, considering how good they are in Mechdar.