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When it comes to many there is also inner-tribal politics that people rarely see on the outside. I know of other situations, one in particular, where rent is paid to the group but most of the power and money is concentrated to one, or a few, families. So then you end up with different factions that are almost invisible to outsiders.

mattyrm wrote: According to the missus, they do get money thrown at them, and this is what is causing the problem in the first place. Its the same here, like most left leaning people you have a very simplistic idea of how to fix an issue.
Namely, throw money at it. Same with the NHS. Oh its broke, throw more money at it.

It doesnt work.

If I go to the sink estate across the street and give a bloke £20,000, he wont invest it. He wont save it, he wont put it in an ISA and he wont send his kids to college, he will spend it on fags and special brew.

And they must have cash, if they buy gak loads of beer every day surely? They don't appear to be stealing it, and I work full time and couldn't afford to get smashed on beer 7 days a week, they arent drinking home brew or spirits, they are mass buying beer.

So rather than be pithy, why not explain to me what your grand plan is for raising them out of poverty, rather than stating the obvious.

Oh and regards the story, do you support their claim to be given millions of dollars for buying a product that is freely available?

big difference

They get their money from the casinos, which are their revenge on the white folks

DIDM wrote:

mattyrm wrote: According to the missus, they do get money thrown at them, and this is what is causing the problem in the first place. Its the same here, like most left leaning people you have a very simplistic idea of how to fix an issue.
Namely, throw money at it. Same with the NHS. Oh its broke, throw more money at it.

It doesnt work.

If I go to the sink estate across the street and give a bloke £20,000, he wont invest it. He wont save it, he wont put it in an ISA and he wont send his kids to college, he will spend it on fags and special brew.

And they must have cash, if they buy gak loads of beer every day surely? They don't appear to be stealing it, and I work full time and couldn't afford to get smashed on beer 7 days a week, they arent drinking home brew or spirits, they are mass buying beer.

So rather than be pithy, why not explain to me what your grand plan is for raising them out of poverty, rather than stating the obvious.

Oh and regards the story, do you support their claim to be given millions of dollars for buying a product that is freely available?

big difference

They get their money from the casinos, which are their revenge on the white folks

I can't tell if you are serious so....the short answer is not really. I hope that was poking fun at a generalization. The long answer is functional drunks can get jobs hat do not require more than hard work. Or maybe family or friends enable them. Another answer is just like any other addict they may steal to support their habit. Just because they are native and addicts why would it be so different than other addicts in america?

Not every tribe gives out payments even if the tribe is lucky enough to have a casino. Much of the money from casinos funds things like my tribes buffalo herd (it is a loss, but worth putting money into) or education, infrastructure, tribal jobs that cannot stand on their own but are beneficial to the people like a local store or programs for preserving language, or feeding elders, not in checks to their members.

As for the law suit I feel there is predatory behavior on part of the companies. There is a difference between moral and legal, Is it legal? As far as I know yup.

he was making a south park reference, in which episode the rich Native Americans who run the big casinos buy out the town of south park to build a highway.

Kilkrazy wrote:It's native Americans stuck on miserable gak hole reservations who are drunks.

For the same reason, Australian aborigines are drunks, and crusties on sink estates in the UK.

Raise them up out of poverty and deprivation and it would stop.

Trust me, out government has tried. Nothing has worked.

Matty has some ridiculous answers at times, but he's spot on here-blaming a company for making a liquid that isn't intended for mass consumption, but rather occasional, social drinks that is being abused isn't right. "I have a problem, so I'm going to blame somebody else for my problem so I look like the victim." Try going to bed ONE NIGHT without a drink, enjoy your hangover free morning, and see what a change it is. Maybe I just don't understand how people can be addicted to something that makes them feel awful-I drink once in a while, have to be in the mood to do it, and if I puke the next day and feel like gak, I stay away from booze for a while. It's not a difficult concept-it affects me negatively? I'll stay away from it for a while, rather than "I think I can get the best of it this time, when I've failed 9999 times already-10,000 is the charm." Stupidity. I feel bad for Native Americans on reservations (the ones not getting gak-rich from casino profits, that is), but they victimize themselves. No sympathy for drunks from me. Tell me you're an alcoholic and want help, I sympathize and I'll recommend rehab and ways to get through it (more effort for friends). Tell me you're an alcoholic and want to launch a lawsuit against alcohol and I'll call you a blithering idiot. One man's weakness is not another man's fault. Stupidity.

This is like blaming McDonald's because they made you fat.

Private_Joker wrote:This is like blaming McDonald's because they made you fat.

Not really. The problem with Indigenous communities goes a lot deeper than just drinking problems. It's not like they just up and decided to become alcoholics, is it really so hard to see that?

Well I know the problems. I'm just saying suing the suppliers isn't going to cut the problem. It seems that kids in aboriginal communities are stuck in the cycle of substance abuse/ violence/ etc as their parents were, and their parents before them. The only was to solve it is to stop the cycle. This "resolution" was tested in the Stolen generation. Didn't turn out so well.

Private_Joker wrote:Well I know the problems. I'm just saying suing the suppliers isn't going to cut the problem. It seems that kids in aboriginal communities are stuck in the cycle of substance abuse/ violence/ etc as their parents were, and their parents before them. The only was to solve it is to stop the cycle. This "resolution" was tested in the Stolen generation. Didn't turn out so well.

Unfortunately neither is ignoring it, throwing welfare at it or introducing the three-strike law (which is a horrific mockery on the justice system that results in 15-year-olds getting 7 years imprisonment for stealing biscuits). Personally I'm a fan of integration, rather than isolation, but then there's the issue of cultural decay and the lack of pride in one's heritage.

timetowaste85 wrote:Matty has some ridiculous answers at times, but he's spot on here-blaming a company for making a liquid that isn't intended for mass consumption, but rather occasional, social drinks that is being abused isn't right. "I have a problem, so I'm going to blame somebody else for my problem so I look like the victim."

When do I, bastion of patience and diplomacy give ridiculous answers?!?

After years of failed efforts to address chronic alcoholism, can a $500m (£308m) dollar lawsuit against the beer supply-chain put an end to one tribe's deadly struggle with alcohol?

Unless they're going to use the money for detox treatments and such, probably not.

Melissia wrote:

After years of failed efforts to address chronic alcoholism, can a $500m (£308m) dollar lawsuit against the beer supply-chain put an end to one tribe's deadly struggle with alcohol?

Unless they're going to use the money for detox treatments and such, probably not.

I don't think suing them is the way to go, but if it has the effect of ensuring they relocate and distance themselves from these reserves (making alcohol much harder to get a hold of) it might help a fair bit.

Melissia wrote:

After years of failed efforts to address chronic alcoholism, can a $500m (£308m) dollar lawsuit against the beer supply-chain put an end to one tribe's deadly struggle with alcohol?

Unless they're going to use the money for detox treatments and such, probably not.

Yeah as I said, moneys not the answer. If you ask a junkie to write a list of the things they would never do to get high, they are just writing a list of rules they are going to break.

With that in mind, what on earth do you think a community of drunks is going to spend 500 million dollars on?

Is that a real beer truck?

Looks it, I just googled "huge beer"

Then that's awesome, looks like Yiu could just put an octopus tap on it and have a platoon sized bender.

mattyrm wrote:

1. Why are native Americans predisposed to serious alcoholism?

It's in their genes. http://www.indiana.edu/~rcapub/v17n3/p18.html

The quest for genes that influence alcohol abuse follows two paths. One goal is to locate genes that predispose a person to alcoholism. The other is to identify genes that help to prevent this from happening. Li and his coworkers have made important advances in this latter category. "We have identified two genes that protect against heavy drinking, and these are particularly prevalent among Asians," Li says. "We have shown that Native Americans, who have a high rate of alcoholism, do not have these protective genes. The one that is particularly effective is a mutation of the gene for the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase, which plays a major role in metabolizing alcohol. The mutation is found very frequently in Chinese and Japanese populations but is less common among other Asian groups, including Koreans, the Malayo-Polynesian group, and others native to the Pacific Rim. "We've also looked at Euro-Americans, Native Americans, and Eskimos, and they don't have that gene mutation," says Li. Thus, incidentally, the study of genetic mutations and alcoholism links native North-American populations to central Asian ancestors, not to those from China and Japan.

Lordhat wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

1. Why are native Americans predisposed to serious alcoholism?

It's in their genes. http://www.indiana.edu/~rcapub/v17n3/p18.html

The quest for genes that influence alcohol abuse follows two paths. One goal is to locate genes that predispose a person to alcoholism. The other is to identify genes that help to prevent this from happening. Li and his coworkers have made important advances in this latter category. "We have identified two genes that protect against heavy drinking, and these are particularly prevalent among Asians," Li says. "We have shown that Native Americans, who have a high rate of alcoholism, do not have these protective genes. The one that is particularly effective is a mutation of the gene for the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase, which plays a major role in metabolizing alcohol. The mutation is found very frequently in Chinese and Japanese populations but is less common among other Asian groups, including Koreans, the Malayo-Polynesian group, and others native to the Pacific Rim. "We've also looked at Euro-Americans, Native Americans, and Eskimos, and they don't have that gene mutation," says Li. Thus, incidentally, the study of genetic mutations and alcoholism links native North-American populations to central Asian ancestors, not to those from China and Japan.

Did they not bother studying European populations?

purplefood wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

1. Why are native Americans predisposed to serious alcoholism?

It's in their genes. http://www.indiana.edu/~rcapub/v17n3/p18.html

The quest for genes that influence alcohol abuse follows two paths. One goal is to locate genes that predispose a person to alcoholism. The other is to identify genes that help to prevent this from happening. Li and his coworkers have made important advances in this latter category. "We have identified two genes that protect against heavy drinking, and these are particularly prevalent among Asians," Li says. "We have shown that Native Americans, who have a high rate of alcoholism, do not have these protective genes. The one that is particularly effective is a mutation of the gene for the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase, which plays a major role in metabolizing alcohol. The mutation is found very frequently in Chinese and Japanese populations but is less common among other Asian groups, including Koreans, the Malayo-Polynesian group, and others native to the Pacific Rim. "We've also looked at Euro-Americans, Native Americans, and Eskimos, and they don't have that gene mutation," says Li. Thus, incidentally, the study of genetic mutations and alcoholism links native North-American populations to central Asian ancestors, not to those from China and Japan.

Did they not bother studying European populations?

Directly? Probably not as the study occurred here in the states, but you'll notice this bit:

"We've also looked at Euro-Americans, Native Americans, and Eskimos, and they don't have that gene mutation," says Li. Thus, incidentally, the study of genetic mutations and alcoholism links native North-American populations to central Asian ancestors, not to those from China and Japan.

Lordhat wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

1. Why are native Americans predisposed to serious alcoholism?

It's in their genes. http://www.indiana.edu/~rcapub/v17n3/p18.html

The quest for genes that influence alcohol abuse follows two paths. One goal is to locate genes that predispose a person to alcoholism. The other is to identify genes that help to prevent this from happening. Li and his coworkers have made important advances in this latter category. "We have identified two genes that protect against heavy drinking, and these are particularly prevalent among Asians," Li says. "We have shown that Native Americans, who have a high rate of alcoholism, do not have these protective genes. The one that is particularly effective is a mutation of the gene for the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase, which plays a major role in metabolizing alcohol. The mutation is found very frequently in Chinese and Japanese populations but is less common among other Asian groups, including Koreans, the Malayo-Polynesian group, and others native to the Pacific Rim. "We've also looked at Euro-Americans, Native Americans, and Eskimos, and they don't have that gene mutation," says Li. Thus, incidentally, the study of genetic mutations and alcoholism links native North-American populations to central Asian ancestors, not to those from China and Japan.

Did they not bother studying European populations?

Directly? Probably not as the study occurred here in the states, but you'll notice this bit:

"We've also looked at Euro-Americans, Native Americans, and Eskimos, and they don't have that gene mutation," says Li. Thus, incidentally, the study of genetic mutations and alcoholism links native North-American populations to central Asian ancestors, not to those from China and Japan.

Yeah i did notice but i was wondering if they studied any European populations on their own.

timetowaste85 wrote:Matty has some ridiculous answers at times, but he's spot on here-blaming a company for making a liquid that isn't intended for mass consumption, but rather occasional, social drinks that is being abused isn't right. "I have a problem, so I'm going to blame somebody else for my problem so I look like the victim." Try going to bed ONE NIGHT without a drink, enjoy your hangover free morning, and see what a change it is. Maybe I just don't understand how people can be addicted to something that makes them feel awful-I drink once in a while, have to be in the mood to do it, and if I puke the next day and feel like gak, I stay away from booze for a while. It's not a difficult concept-it affects me negatively? I'll stay away from it for a while, rather than "I think I can get the best of it this time, when I've failed 9999 times already-10,000 is the charm." Stupidity. I feel bad for Native Americans on reservations (the ones not getting gak-rich from casino profits, that is), but they victimize themselves. No sympathy for drunks from me. Tell me you're an alcoholic and want help, I sympathize and I'll recommend rehab and ways to get through it (more effort for friends). Tell me you're an alcoholic and want to launch a lawsuit against alcohol and I'll call you a blithering idiot. One man's weakness is not another man's fault. Stupidity.

You clearly do not understand addiction. You also clearly have no grasp of the socio economic situation of native peoples in this country for the last 200 years. I think I already noted that the natives who do have money are probably not alcoholics, as drug abuse is a symptom of poverty not being INDIAN. Still people are getting the 2 conflated making psuedo racist comments steeped in stereotypes describing people they have never met but live right beside them. I understand intentional racism and uneducated racism. I outlined in my first and 2nd post in this thread my thoughts on this, no use beating a dead horse.

To tell the truth, where I grew up in Maine had a fairly large percentage of Mic Macs, French, and other types. I didn't see a whole lot of difference in alcohol consumption among any of those groups.

mattyrm wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:Matty has some ridiculous answers at times, but he's spot on here-blaming a company for making a liquid that isn't intended for mass consumption, but rather occasional, social drinks that is being abused isn't right. "I have a problem, so I'm going to blame somebody else for my problem so I look like the victim."

When do I, bastion of patience and diplomacy give ridiculous answers?!?

Gimme a minute-I think my brain just crashed trying to count that high.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

J-Roc77 wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:Matty has some ridiculous answers at times, but he's spot on here-blaming a company for making a liquid that isn't intended for mass consumption, but rather occasional, social drinks that is being abused isn't right. "I have a problem, so I'm going to blame somebody else for my problem so I look like the victim." Try going to bed ONE NIGHT without a drink, enjoy your hangover free morning, and see what a change it is. Maybe I just don't understand how people can be addicted to something that makes them feel awful-I drink once in a while, have to be in the mood to do it, and if I puke the next day and feel like gak, I stay away from booze for a while. It's not a difficult concept-it affects me negatively? I'll stay away from it for a while, rather than "I think I can get the best of it this time, when I've failed 9999 times already-10,000 is the charm." Stupidity. I feel bad for Native Americans on reservations (the ones not getting gak-rich from casino profits, that is), but they victimize themselves. No sympathy for drunks from me. Tell me you're an alcoholic and want help, I sympathize and I'll recommend rehab and ways to get through it (more effort for friends). Tell me you're an alcoholic and want to launch a lawsuit against alcohol and I'll call you a blithering idiot. One man's weakness is not another man's fault. Stupidity.

You clearly do not understand addiction. You also clearly have no grasp of the socio economic situation of native peoples in this country for the last 200 years. I think I already noted that the natives who do have money are probably not alcoholics, as drug abuse is a symptom of poverty not being INDIAN. Still people are getting the 2 conflated making psuedo racist comments steeped in stereotypes describing people they have never met but live right beside them. I understand intentional racism and uneducated racism. I outlined in my first and 2nd post in this thread my thoughts on this, no use beating a dead horse.

Did...did you just call me a racist in there? I may have mistaken part of your comment, but it looks like it-if I did misunderstand, I apologize. I'll admit, I don't understand addiction-I don't understand how people can become addicted to things to the point of being able to function without doing it. I drank a helluva lot of Mt. Dew in high school-not for caffeine, but because I liked it. Eventually I realized I drank it too much, stopped, and the massive headaches started from withdrawl. I thought it was the worst feeling in the world, rode it out, and made sure never to get my body to the level where it feels it can't live without caffeine. I drank for taste, not effect on my body, and quit when I saw that it could have a bad influence on me, and now I drink soda in moderation. Likewise, these 'addicts' feel awful after their act, but rather than do as I did and make sure they don't go through it all over again, they restart the process. I'll agree they need help, rehab even, like a drug user or someone with a gambling issue. But blaming somebody else for creating something that they choose to use and abuse is not appropriate, and they shouldn't be suing them. If I were a judge, I'd laugh the case out of court. Does that make me a jerk? Maybe, but not a racist-I'd make the same comments no matter who is involved, race, gender, age, sexuality, makes no difference-blaming somebody else for something you can't physically deal with is not right.

timetowaste85 wrote:

Did...did you just call me a racist in there? I may have mistaken part of your comment, but it looks like it-if I did misunderstand, I apologize. I'll admit, I don't understand addiction-I don't understand how people can become addicted to things to the point of being able to function without doing it. I drank a helluva lot of Mt. Dew in high school-not for caffeine, but because I liked it. Eventually I realized I drank it too much, stopped, and the massive headaches started from withdrawl. I thought it was the worst feeling in the world, rode it out, and made sure never to get my body to the level where it feels it can't live without caffeine. I drank for taste, not effect on my body, and quit when I saw that it could have a bad influence on me, and now I drink soda in moderation. Likewise, these 'addicts' feel awful after their act, but rather than do as I did and make sure they don't go through it all over again, they restart the process. I'll agree they need help, rehab even, like a drug user or someone with a gambling issue. But blaming somebody else for creating something that they choose to use and abuse is not appropriate, and they shouldn't be suing them. If I were a judge, I'd laugh the case out of court. Does that make me a jerk? Maybe, but not a racist-I'd make the same comments no matter who is involved, race, gender, age, sexuality, makes no difference-blaming somebody else for something you can't physically deal with is not right.

I did not address the court issue in my post with you because I already covered that in a previous post. Yup I think it is a losing case.

As for calling you a racist, no. I was referring to a comment you made that drips with unintentional racism. I deal with this daily, I outlined where you made an error conflating alcoholism with being native (I addressed it as a symptom of poverty not of ethnicity) along that and the whole casino thing where you insinuate even rich natives are alcoholics further pushing the stereotype that natives are alcoholics. You wouldn't believe how many times casinos come up in conversations with how rich I am supposed to be, both subjects of alcoholism and casinos I have already addressed. An analogy that may help stem the flow of this inaccurate stereotype is jewish people and bankers, not all jewish people are rich bankers are they? And if there is a banker in the family does the whole family benefit? cousins aunts etc? Not really no. Well news flash, not all natives are rich casino owners who suffer from alcoholism. I feel my other posts have outlined these subjects in better detail and would rather just say read them rather than type my point over and over. I get into this daily with neighbors, college and work with questions or insinuations based out of lack current or even historical knowledge. In subjects of ethnicity, oppression and historical bias people either get it or they do not, why I had a disclaimer at my first post in this thread.

I think part of it has to do with leadership and infrastructure. I have been to a few, and work for one, and having a solid plan, for your business ventures is definitely a factor. Also, I wonder if there is a lack of education occurring, where those who do leave and get educated do not come back, and are there is resentment towards these folks.

VermGho5t wrote:I think part of it has to do with leadership and infrastructure. I have been to a few, and work for one, and having a solid plan, for your business ventures is definitely a factor. Also, I wonder if there is a lack of education occurring, where those who do leave and get educated do not come back, and are there is resentment towards these folks.

Some tribes have it better than others. Tribes that have a good business outlook generally have lower rates of the issues outlined in previous posts. Some tribes have less to start with and are unable to pull out of poverty with the hand they were dealt. The american government has been anything but fair int he treatment of indigenous peoples, past and present.

Brain drain is huge on reservations. While some get educated and come back many do not come back as there is no real economic opportunities on reservations. Underemployment is huge on even well to do reservations. That being said Pine Ridge is an extreme example and is no way the norm. It is one of the worst reservations in terms of poverty and issues connected with that.

J-Roc77 wrote: I think I already noted that the natives who do have money are probably not alcoholics, as drug abuse is a symptom of poverty not being INDIAN.

Poverty is s symptom of drug abuse as much as it is a cause, and studies show that pre-disposition to physical addiction (which is what alchohol addiction is) is largely dependent on genetics, so it really is a symptom of being NATIVE AMERICAN. As I mentioned earlier, I know plenty of Native Americans who weren't raised in poverty, but are now poor, because they can't stop drinking, and will drink literally anything with an alchohol content. My best friend's cousin literally drank himself to death just about two years ago.

Lordhat wrote:

J-Roc77 wrote: I think I already noted that the natives who do have money are probably not alcoholics, as drug abuse is a symptom of poverty not being INDIAN.

Poverty is s symptom of drug abuse as much as it is a cause, and studies show that pre-disposition to physical addiction (which is what alchohol addiction is) is largely dependent on genetics, so it really is a symptom of being NATIVE AMERICAN. As I mentioned earlier, I know plenty of Native Americans who weren't raised in poverty, but are now poor, because they can't stop drinking, and will drink literally anything with an alchohol content. My best friend's cousin literally drank himself to death just about two years ago.

Sure drug abuse can lead to poverty. Are you saying natives are in poverty because of drug abuse? I think that is pretty far from the truth. Yes there are studies that show we metabolize alcohol poorly. I am not denying that. I am saying to plainly say that natives are drunks because their genes have a play in it is ignoring the history and current status between us and the united states government. The leap you are making is due to the lack of factors you are using to evaluate this issue, your claim is in the realm of post hoc. The fact is addiction is due to many factors and not just being predisposition to it for a certain substance.To paraphrase your claim; Natives are predisposed to alcoholism, therefore that leads to their poverty. Is that about it? How about this, would you ask a black person why they represent a disproportionate population of the prison system? If they make claims of demonstrable oppression and poverty in their recent history would you consider their claim to have value? If yes why not the natives, and if not...why not? Agree to disagree at worst I guess? I will say the alcoholism on reservations is compounded by having a predisposition.

Something tells me your personal experience will not sway me. A tale of your best friends cousin is often how I hear about what people think of us.

mattyrm wrote: How then?

I mean, I reckon its a good idea, but how can it be achived? You cant say "no selling beer to Indians" because thats ridiculous, if I was an honest hard working Indian who wanted a 6 pack on a Saturday I would be outraged!

And you cant say "No beer at all in the neighbouring counties" because what about the millions of responsible drinkers?

Basically, they should bring in ridiculously harsh laws on the reservation. No consuming alcohol or a night in the cells or something.. but as I said, blaming beer makers is flat out ridiculous.

I think the real problem here is we're talking US beer. We all know US beer is evil, because it sucks.