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DarthSpader wrote:a 5 man warrior squad on venom with blaster. the warriors stay away from them and shower those boys with splinter fire untill they go away.

otherwise counter charge with a full unit of wyches and an attached haemy with liquifier gun. that flamer will melt those orcs but quick.

heck anything with a flamer. that land raider with a par of them would work pretty good, a unit of stergaurds with cvombi flamers... 20 boyz by themselves is not a scary proposistion.

Classic case of "Read the title, didn't read to original post".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

papathrax wrote:Yeah... A tooled-up powerblob would do it. 45 guardsmen, 5 sergeants w/PW, 5 commissars w/pw. That's 65 attacks, 20 of them PW, before you strike. Simultaneous if you WAAGH! against your puny 60 attacks and 4 PK (that goes last).

Yeah, you'd win the combat every time due to WS3 S3 T3, but you'd keep winning and winning until you were dead.

Keeping in mind Ailaros' point, your orks would be very lucky to even get there unmolested. Especially in the unlucky scenario where your last move puts you 13 inches away from the blob, which moves 2 inches, FRFSRF.... mathammer states they'd all be either dead or running - 23 wounds to save on a 6+, plus 2 dead outright from the commissars... unless you're in cover or 'ard boyz.

Orks on the charge go at the same time as guardsmen and slugga boyz have four attacks each. But you point still stands, just with more casualties on the IG side

I would still charge boyz into the powerblob, even if they lose the fight. First of all, the powerblob is much more expensive than a unit of boyz, and heavily decimated after the encounter. Second the blob is usually in place to protect something more valuable, so drawing it away and occupying it with boyz for a few turn is still a good move.

The OP clearly asking for 20 boyz being on the charge, so any further discussion would result in a pretty useless hypothetical discussion. How they got there is irrelevant, I constantly have the option to charge with a mob of 20 - be it because it came out of a battlewagon, because they simply weren't shot at (happens a lot if you have four or more units on the table) or simply because they were 30 boyz and lost 10.
Besides that, the blob could have taken casualties itself, and would most likely be shot by the orks before the charge, too. But, as said before, too many "if"s to really make this relevant to any kind of discussion.
That said, movement rarely has anything to do with luck. Unless you have thrakka present, you'd be forced to move within shooting range of the blob to charge them, and if I remember correctly, FRSRF still nets bonus shots outside of rapid fire range. Mobs of boyz should always have at least 5+ cover though.

Well, a full Seer Council can annihilate a 30 Ork mob on the charge. I've done it several times and it works.

other things not mentioned this ffar that orks shouldn't charge

eldar wraithguard. in high number can be rough your orks only wound on a 6, but then again they are rare

eldar bashees will eat you with counter attack, usualyl you'll be just over fearless so have to take fearless saves and they'll clean up the 2nd combat phase

finally prince yriel... i once seperated him from a harliquins troop vs orks, fed the harlies a group of nobz, seperated yriel and unfortunatly was just shy of a solo assault the ork player then charged yriel next turn... str6 large blast instead of the attack ended up with only a few orks swinging, the pk one hit was saved by the inv save and they were caught and wiped ... i expected yriel to take some of em out with him but str6 ap3 large blast put on a hurting to orks piled around him

also chargeing space wolves with counter attack can be devistating

Thanks to everyone for all their feedback. Like I said im still new to the game, so all this is great information for when I come into more contact with different armies. I have a list below that I am working on tweaking. I don't like the ard boyz that much, I want another BW and maybe get rid of the looted wagon, but I was wondering if I could ask you, with this list, what are some decent tactics in countering those before mentioned enemy squads that are good at sluggin boyz. Also any criticism and changes you would make to the list to make these orks better at killing would be much appreciated.

Warboss (Pk, 'eavy armor): 90
Big Mek (KFF, shoota/skorcha) 90

Troops:
19 ard boyz, ard Nob(PK)= 236
19 boyz, Nob(PK)=160
2 Battlewagons (for them to go in) (2 Deff rollers, 4 big shootas)=260
11 boyz, Nob(PK)=112
11 boyz Nob(PK)=112
2 Trukks (their rides), 2 reinforced rams = 80
7 Nobs (6-Big Choopas, 1 Pk, 1 Waagh Banner, 'eavy armor)= 245
1 Trukk (Nobz and Warboss) reinforced ram= 40
Elite:
7 burnas= 105
1 Trukk(burnas and Big Mekk), reinforced ram= 40
Fast Attack:
4 Deffkoptas, rokkits= 180 (also considering a group of 7-9 warbikers with a nob)
Heavy support:
(the two battlewagons)
Looted Wagon, Boomgun- 105

Purifiers

cybork on warboss over eavy armour
ard boys are never worth it,
more than 2 big shootas on a bw is a waste, add rpj instead and plates are a must
add 1 weapon to a trukk to avooid weapon destroyed becoming immmobalize also rpj is nice for trukks
nobz need a painboy equipments diversification and usually at least 2 power klaws pref 3, also give them a battlewagon as they will be pricey and a priority target
burnaz can't take a dedicated transport nor can a big mek
split deffcoptas to 3 and add buzzsaws
looted wagons are very ineffective I advised ditching it or if you insist on running it ard case, rpj so you cna move one inch and fire, then put it near a group of 5 lootas and a mek who can repair it if the gun breaks instead of shooting

also warboss doesn't belong with nobz, nobz kill almost anythign anythign they couldn't will still eat the warboss, waroboss shoudl kill stuff on his own I reccomend a burna wagon with warboss for solo jump outs or to make them more intimidating if the wagon breaks

Walkers with front armor 13.

Furioso dreads, ironclads, the new necron walker. Your PK will need a 6 to pen, and then you'll have to gamble on the vehicle damage chart to put it out of commission. It'll be quite a while before your nob wrecks that walker.

On the flip side, sometimes it is a good idea to tarpit a walker. So take that with a grain of salt, and acknowledge that you'll have that 20 strong mob tied up for 2-3 turns before they eventually come out on top. Depending on the tactical situation, it might be a good idea.

I'm also going to add that there are some things you don't want to charge. Not because you'll lose the combat, but because it will put you in a poor tactical position. You don't want to charge speedbump units unless you have to, or if you can multi-charge whatever they're protecting. A 5 man Kabalite Warrior squad? Cool, you killed the hell out of it, and consolidate within 1" of the venom it was protecting. Which will now torrent the gak out of those orks with its splinter cannons after backing off. Apply to mechvet squads protecting their chimeras, or kroot bubble wrap, or anything that you're going to wipe in one turn and then end up sitting in the open, twiddling your thumbs while you get shot at your opponent's leisure.

This of course does not apply if you can multi-assault the speedbump and whatever it's trying to protect.

Lokas wrote:Walkers with front armor 13.

Furioso dreads, ironclads, the new necron walker. Your PK will need a 6 to pen, and then you'll have to gamble on the vehicle damage chart to put it out of commission. It'll be quite a while before your nob wrecks that walker.

On the flip side, sometimes it is a good idea to tarpit a walker. So take that with a grain of salt, and acknowledge that you'll have that 20 strong mob tied up for 2-3 turns before they eventually come out on top. Depending on the tactical situation, it might be a good idea.

I'm also going to add that there are some things you don't want to charge. Not because you'll lose the combat, but because it will put you in a poor tactical position. You don't want to charge speedbump units unless you have to, or if you can multi-charge whatever they're protecting. A 5 man Kabalite Warrior squad? Cool, you killed the hell out of it, and consolidate within 1" of the venom it was protecting. Which will now torrent the gak out of those orks with its splinter cannons after backing off. Apply to mechvet squads protecting their chimeras, or kroot bubble wrap, or anything that you're going to wipe in one turn and then end up sitting in the open, twiddling your thumbs while you get shot at your opponent's leisure.

This of course does not apply if you can multi-assault the speedbump and whatever it's trying to protect.

agree with everything. but do note you'll pen on a 5 or 6 on the charge, only 6's after thant (str9 on charge, str8 each round after that) it isn't a completely lost cause to charge walkers, but i agree it is a bog down effort.

kind of like if you charge my eldar wraithlord with 20 boys and a nob w/ pk, the pk is wounding on 3's on the charge, and 4's after that, the boys can't even hurt it, but it'll be tarpitted down eventually

I agree mostly with smile, and this:

Regular bikers either shine, or get shot up really fast and run away. I do like them though if you can get the hang of using them.

bosspoles are essential on your nobs leading squads, you might be able to get away without them on the 20 man squads though.

Take note if you drop the looted wagon burna boyz and a deffkopta that is 20 more boyz in a battlewagon. Not that I am saying you should do this, it's just a consideration.

...Why in the name of the Bright God's flaming arse am I going to get anywhere near 20+ Ork Boyz with a Power Klaw unless I'm about to dump a half-dozen Destructor Warlocks' flamer templates on them?

I've found wraithlords to not be an issue with orks, the klaw takes care of them while the wraithlord kills 2 boyz a turn.

Maybe a unit of plague marines with defensive grenades and sitting in cover, they'd hit first, and the regular boys can barely hurt them after the charge
Pm's hitting first (assuming no CCW's)
5 hits (4's)
4 wounds (3's)
3 unsaved armor (5's)
3 casualties

without the nades
60 attacks--> 20ish hits (hitting on 5's)
about 7 wounds (wounding on 5's)
about 3.5 failed armor saves (3+)
about 1.75 failed FNP (4+)
+ 2 with power klaw

with grenades
40 attacks--> 13.2 hits (hitting on 5's)
4.356 wounds (wounding on 5's)
1.4 failed armor saves (3+)
.7 failed fnp
+1.5 with power klaw

Thing is, the next turn, pretty much the only casualties will be caused by the klaw, and the boys become almost an afterthought due to the T5, 3+ and FNP

Big problem with your math: Plague Marines are not WS9. They are WS4.

10 death company whit Lemartes

Ruphi wrote:I've found wraithlords to not be an issue with orks, the klaw takes care of them while the wraithlord kills 2 boyz a turn.

it'll eventually bring down the wraithguard but it'll take a few turns and by then the eldar player will have backed everything away from the orks and be ready to clean up the rest.

mathhammer says

Round 1

20 orks w/ nob and pk charge a wraithlord.
Wraithlord attack first
2 attacks hitting on 4’s 1 hit, wounding on 2’s .83 wounds
On the charge 19 boys str4 on T8 do nothing
Pk nob hits on 4’s 2 hits, wounding on 3’s first round 1.3 wounds

Round 2
Wraithlord squishes another .83orks
Pk nob now hitting on 4’s w/ 3 attacks 1.5 hit wounding on 4’s .75 wounds

Combat ends round 3 or 4 but you’ve lost 2 turns for the unit, and unless you pulled off a multi assault only the pk nob matters. If all I have to throw at a wraithlord is boys you are right that is what I am going to do, but diversified nobs will absolutely eat a wraithlord much more efficiently, generally squishing it in 1 assault phase assuming 3 pk’s. ntoe i've had bad luck on my pk nobz and had a wraithlord comabt last from turn 3 to still going at the end of turn 6

Again I agree that I’d charge 20 boys w/ nob and pk at a wraithlord but they are not usually my most efficient choice for the job (I run warboss so one nobz squad on bikes as a troop and one nobz squad in a BW both w./ painboy, 3 pk’s bp waagh banner kombi skorcha and big choppa)

Special note on assaulting a wraithlord be 100% sure you will get the charge, it has 2 flamers, and if you are short it is going to put down a flame template from each arm str 4 ap 5 and really hurt your odds dependant on placement and if you were going to assault remember only the p knob matters so him out front the rest should be spead out behind him in case you do fall short to take minimal casualties as the boyz can’t do anything anyway or even better fin them out to something else for a multi assault since elder are only mostly T3 you’ll eat most of them (again except banshees… do NOT ever charge banshees) they countercharge, make you weapon skill 1 for the first round and hit first w/ 2 attacks per model you will lose combat but likely still need to take fearless saves then they usually clean it up on your turn catching you banshees for a S3 T3 model surprise people )

AnomanderRake wrote:...Why in the name of the Bright God's flaming arse am I going to get anywhere near 20+ Ork Boyz with a Power Klaw unless I'm about to dump a half-dozen Destructor Warlocks' flamer templates on them?

Because sometimes the only place to go which isn't near any orks would be off the table. And at other times the orks are coming near you - superior speed is somewhat less effective when you can go in a straight line forever.

20-man Black Templar blobs tend to do bad things to Orks, even if charged.