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Legacy40k wrote:By that logic, a unit can't nominate a charge target unless they shot a weapon.

The discussion was about shooting. Choosing targets for an assault are a completely separate issue.

Legacy40k wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Legacy40k wrote:This doesn't seem to be about which units can shoot. This is about which units can pick a target. It doesn't say to be allowed to pick a target you have to shoot. It just says you can't shoot if you don't pick a target.

As far as I read, the only requirement for picking a target is that you have line of sight. You don't have to have weapons, or weapons in range.

To pick a target you have to start the shooting sequence. To start the shooting sequence you have to nominate the unit to fire.

If you're smoked or flat out you can't be nominated to fire because, well, you can't fire.

Where does it say you have to make them fire? All I'm reading is that you "pick one of your units" nowhere does it say that unit has to have guns, or be able to fire, or even want to fire. All I see is that after you've chosen a target, you can then choose if you want to shoot it or not.

page 15 wrote:You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.

This establishes that you pick what unit shoots when , and that shooting and firing are synonymous.

page 15 wrote:The shooting process can be summarised in six steps, as described below.

Below is the "Shooting Sequence" which is where your quote comes from.

page 15 wrote:Once you’ve completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence.

This shows that you complete the Shooting Sequence with the units you've nominated to shoot.

page 16 wrote:A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in combat as its target, and may not split its fire among different targets.

That rule shows that you must be a firing unit to pick a target. We know that a smoked or flat out unit cannot be a firing unit.

The box-out on page 15 is a summary, as stated in my second quote. To get to the actual rules for each step, you have to keep reading.

Hey, waitaminnit here, we might be onto something - can I nominate a target with my Scarabs, check LOS, and measure distance? That would come in handy, it doesn't explicitly say in the firing sequence "not if you're a scarab", does it?

Do scarabs have a shooting attack?

Related questions.

is the use of a searchlight on an equipped vehicle optional?

The guard codex states; 'If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick the target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight.

Relating to this. Can a vehicle searchlight multiple targets if it shoots multiple targets? The only situations I can see this happening are Land Raiders, Black Templar Tanks and Super Heavies.

No. You have no choice - WILL illuminate.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No. You have no choice - WILL illuminate.

So, if a land raider shoots 2 targets, it will illuminate them both.

Yes - and if you searched that exact question was asked about a week ago.

Also - find permission to select a target, during shooting, that ISNT related t the unit shooting. You cannot do so, meaning you cant do it.

Happyjew wrote:Do scarabs have a shooting attack?

Well, flat-out Vendettas don't have one either. <shrug>

Multiple targets - that's actually a good question. Edit: and "yes, illuminates all targets" is reasonable.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes - and if you searched that exact question was asked about a week ago.

I just did, no records were found.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Also - find permission to select a target, during shooting, that ISNT related t the unit shooting. You cannot do so, meaning you cant do it.

I don't understand the context of this?

The context is the original post; whcih is that you cannot select a target unless you follow the shooting rules, which require you to be able to shoot.

I suggest google search, using "site: dakkadakka.com"

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/440131.page

Just under a month ago.

So I'm reading through that thread, Ghaz, and I see this:

jgehunter wrote:If you can't shoot you can't use them. Check the Errata:
"Page 55 – Search-lights, second paragraph.
The second sentence should be changed to:
If a vehicle has a searchlight, it must still use the Night Fighting rules to pick a target but, having fired at that unit, will illuminate it with the searchlight."

I go to the BRB FAQ page on GW's site, and I cannot find this. It would help clear things up. Little help on a link, maybe? (I have bad search skilz, evidently.)

It's from the Dark Angels update, not BRB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170007a_Dark_Angels_FAQ_Version_1_2_January_2012.pdf

offs, i have to read every damn screwball faq for general rules

edit:

Randall Turner wrote:offs, i have to read every damn screwball faq for general rules

To be fair, playing the game does sort of require a general knowledge of all of the rules, so reading all the FAQs isn't a bad idea.

It's the Nightfighting and targeting rules in the main rulebook which make explicit that you can only try to spot when you try to shoot something.

And then the text for Searchlights in every codex which has them tells you that you light up the target if you succeed at spotting them. IIRC only the DA codex needed text added in its FAQ.

But, gentlemen - the wording is slightly different. "acquire" vs. "having fired at"

I not only have to read the rules on searchlights, I have to read the rules on searchlights in every codex, and every FAQ for every codex. (Which is okay, I really don't, I have you guys.)

We can assume the rules for DA carry over for other codices, so the FAQ/errata will be relevant for the others. If your position is "having acquired a target, will illuminate it..." is identical to, "having fired at that unit, will illuminate it..." I might agree with you. However, others might not. And I think Legacy here is probably in the "not" camp. ie, the DA wording makes it much clearer that you really, really do have to actually fire at the target.

edit: DA, not BA

But to acquire a target you must be able to fire at it. You don't actually have to shoot if you don't want to, but you have to nominate the unit to shoot - which you can't do if it's smoked or gone flat out.

Rigeld2, I obviously agree with you, you're preaching to the choir.

You guys realize I raised the "firing with scarabs" question to illustrate that when you can fire without firing, "things break", right? I don't actually think I can go off measuring range with my scarabs, I really don't. But we just went through a page and a half with people who did believe that, anything that makes the issue clearer as in "having fired at..." is a good thing. I'm just a bit frustrated sometimes at the, umm... "distributed nature" of the 40K rules.

edit: oh, wait - i was focusing on the FAQ rule issue, i missed a nuance. I think I do disagree with you on a secondary issue, "don't actually have to shoot if you don't want to" - I think that "targeting" means "shoot at", so although you can target an enemy unit for night-fighting and not shoot because you didn't acquire (ie, spot) him, your wanting to doesn't enter into it. If you're targeting something and there's no LOS blockage or night range issue, you're shooting at him.

Right. Checking back in on this to see how it went... and well it's looking about right where I expected it.

To be sure though I'm bringing up the nighfight checking scarabs at a later date. The irony is simply too blistering.

That said, I appreciate all the contributions so far and especially the latest mention of a codex errata specifying the light use in conjunction with shooting.

In the end, sensible players acknowledge that searchlights use NF rules for targeting units-- rules which only account for firing units designating targets which are then lit up after the fact. The lights themselves are not separate pieces of gear which can act indepedently.. they're like scopes on a gun. Only lighting what the gun is pointed at.

You may only select a target for shooting if you can shoot. If you have selected a target and it's within the max distance you rolled for night fight, the target is illuminated. As Happy said, the illuminating distance may be farther than the actual range of the gun.

Agree with others, you dont have permission to check range to a target anytime you want with whatever unit you want. This includes units with searchlights. If you cant shoot, you can not aquire a target to check range to use searchlights.

There are only two different wordings for searchlights among the codices. One appears in the IG codex and is the most common. It says:

If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight.

The shooting rules say that "firing" units must select a target. Therefore you must have declared your intent to fire before picking a target. The night fighting rules say that you must roll for night fight after declaring a target. The searchlight rules in the IG codex require you to "pick a target" using the night fighting rules, and "having acquired a target," the searchlight will illuminate the vehicle.

"Pick a target" either is complete nonsense (as night fighting requires a target to have already been picked) or a rephrasing of "pick a target out" or "spot" a target using the night fighting rules. "Having acquired a target" is also nonsense if taken literally, so it instead must mean "succeeded on the night fight roll." Without this understanding, searchlights would not be able to use the night fighting rules at all.

Now to the question at hand. As a unit must have declared its intent to fire (and also have chosen a target) let's go back to the BGB. It tells us "A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in combat as its target..." Therefore, the unit must be firing in order to have a target, and as searchlights require targets, to use a searchlight you must be firing.

This means that:
1. A unit without any ranged weapons that has a searchlight cannot use a searchlight, as it cannot fire.
2. A unit that moved at a speed that prevents it from firing (i.e., cruising or flat out) cannot use a searchlight, as it cannot fire (unless it has something like PotMS).

That said, there is only one other instance of searchlights that is different than the one in the IG codex.

Codex: CSM:
If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the Night Fighting rules to pick a target but, having fired at that unit, will illuminate it with the searchlight.

Since we have a greater understanding of the process involved in the more common rule, this one is easy. You have to have fired at the unit to illuminate it. Which, in the end, is actually the same conclusion I came to for the other wording of the searchlight rule.

In other words, you have to not only have the capacity to fire to use searchlights, but you must also actively fire to use them.

Finally, this question did come up at Adepticon, and the ruling was that vehicles that move such that they cannot fire cannot use their searchlights.

You can't pick a target if you can't shoot. So you can't use a searchlight if you moved flat out or popped smoke. Because you can't shoot and can't nominate a target. If a unit has no ranged weapons they can't nominate a target in the shooting phase either. So no searchlights if your rhino lost its bolter.

The Dragon wrote:it popped up in the tourneys as a result of the necron solar pulse/ Omotech which turns the table to night during the enemy's shooting phase.

The new Necron codex was released (this year) quite a bit of time after BeakyCon (last year) so this shouldn't have been an issue there.

Actually the new Codex Necrons was released November 5th, 2011.

BeakyCon took place the last weekend of October 2011. Thanks for the clarification by the way.

Earlier the logic that you needed a weapon to use the searchlight came up. If, lets say a rhino loses its stormbolter, someone claimed you would not be able to use the searchlight.
I disagree. You should be able to use ur searchlight even with no weapons. Imobilized veichles such as a Sabre (Forgeworld model) are equiped ONLY with a searchlight, and are still allowed to use it. A sentinel powerlifter are also disarmed, but may upgrade a searchlight.
I will not accept that a veichle with only a searchlight may use it, but a veichle with weapons reduced to only have searchlights left are unable to.

Valkyria wrote:Earlier the logic that you needed a weapon to use the searchlight came up. If, lets say a rhino loses its stormbolter, someone claimed you would not be able to use the searchlight.
I disagree. You should be able to use ur searchlight even with no weapons. Imobilized veichles such as a Sabre (Forgeworld model) are equiped ONLY with a searchlight, and are still allowed to use it. A sentinel powerlifter are also disarmed, but may upgrade a searchlight.
I will not accept that a veichle with only a searchlight may use it, but a veichle with weapons reduced to only have searchlights left are unable to.

So because Forgeworld models have useless wargear, the RAW is wrong?
No, those Forgeworld models have useless wargear.