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Big issue here at the game store developing with certain anti-nightfight tactics.

Certain players are arguing that it's legal to use the spotlights on Valkyries and Vendettas during the shooting phase without firing or even being ABLE to fire at what they're supposedly spotting ala turbo-boosting across the board and point-blank spotting.

Rules.

Search light-

Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect. If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target will illuminate it with the searchlight. For the rest of the Shooting phase, any other unit that firees at the illuminated unit does not use the night fighting special rule. (emphasis added)

Nightfighting-

After selecting a target, but before a unit fires, a check needs to be made to see if the firers can clearly spot their target through the darkness. (emphasis added)...[segment explaining check].. If the distance beween the firing unit and their target is higher than the total rolled, the unit cannot fire at all in this Shooting phase, as they search the dark for a target that never appears.

The debate here is whether the nightfight rule segment of "but before a unit fires" is merely a timing reference i.e. "at the start of the shooting phase do X" or whether it's a condition to use a spot check at all i.e. nightfight checks are made by units calling out shots against enemy units.

Truthfully, the debate at this point is less a debate and more of a fight out in the parking lot. Both sides are calling foul as apparently there are respected tourney scenes doing it both ways. Apparently Adepticon, beaky con, and others are allowing units to use checks even when they can't fire.

Anyways, for now we have dreadnoughts, rhinos, etc.. popping lights even when all their weapons are blown and cron players getting ready to blow their own fuses.

Thoughts?

And when do you pick a target?
(hint - when you're shooting)
So can you pick a target without shooting?
(no)
Can you searchlight without picking a target?
(no)

So you can't searchlight without shooting.

There is absolutely no rules basis for using a searchlight without firing a weapon.

You use the searchlight when the target is acquired. You can't acquire a target unless you are intending to shoot at it.

insaniak wrote:There is absolutely no rules basis for using a searchlight without firing a weapon.

You use the searchlight when the target is acquired. You can't acquire a target unless you are intending to shoot at it.

This.

I understand and this is what I've said. Yet, we supposedly have reknowned tourney such as Adepticon and Beakycon doing it.

Who is and who isn't is what I'd like to know? Apparently it's also come up on BOLS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What I keep getting hit with here is that it's a seperate wargear piece, that it's not a weapon, and frankly.... a complete disregard for the fact that NF checks are only for units firing on a declared target.

The Dragon wrote: Yet, we supposedly have reknowned tourney such as Adepticon and Beakycon doing it.

Where does that information come from?

No idea on Beakycon, and none of the Adepticon Championship missions this year used the Nightfight rules, so this wouldn't even have come up in the first place... but I would be very surprised if it was ruled that way at Adepticon.

What I keep getting hit with here is that it's a seperate wargear piece, that it's not a weapon,

Which has no bearing on when it is used.

and frankly.... a complete disregard for the fact that NF checks are only for units firing on a declared target.

Not much you can do if they're just going to ignore the rules that don't suit their argument, I'm afraid.

it popped up in the tourneys as a result of the necron solar pulse/ Omotech which turns the table to night during the enemy's shooting phase.

Beakycon is run by a 40k pariah, it's not really a good authoritative source. Regardless, the above posters are correct, you need to shoot to use a searchlight.

So a rhino that lost all its weapons can't use its search light. is that correct?

bagtagger wrote:So a rhino that lost all its weapons can't use its search light. is that correct?

Correct

The Dragon wrote:I understand and this is what I've said. Yet, we supposedly have reknowned tourney such as Adepticon and Beakycon doing it.

BS! This is such a wrong application of the rules and reeks of some one trying to justify a complete abuse of the search light

Maybe to clarify, the searchlight on vehicles should be treated as a weapon, and therefore can be destroyed with a "weapon destroyed" result, and also the vehicle must be able to fire normally?

Lightning Shadows wrote:Maybe to clarify, the searchlight on vehicles should be treated as a weapon, and therefore can be destroyed with a "weapon destroyed" result, and also the vehicle must be able to fire normally?

No.
There's no reason to treat it like a weapon. You just have to target something to roll for nightfighting.

equipment =/= weapon but rules requiring a weapon need a working weapon

all the rules for shooting in the BRB require a weapon so a model cannot make it to the acquire target step without having a weapon, so there would be no chance to use a spotlight without firing a weapon.

rigeld2 wrote:

Lightning Shadows wrote:Maybe to clarify, the searchlight on vehicles should be treated as a weapon, and therefore can be destroyed with a "weapon destroyed" result, and also the vehicle must be able to fire normally?

No.
There's no reason to treat it like a weapon. You just have to target something to roll for nightfighting.

Agreed. I just double checked in the guard codex in fact. Nowhere in the rules for a search light does it say that it is treated like a weapon, or that it can only be used when a weapon can be used. It follows no rules for shooting. It simply has to roll to see it's target to illuminate it. It doesn't even imply that if a vehicle does shoot, it's search light has to illuminate the target it is shooting at (In fact, the vehicle can't benefit from it's own search light as it says "other units" but it's rather moot since the vehicle rolled to see). There is nothing to suggest that It can't be used if the vehicle is stunned or shaken either.

There are also no official firing arcs for search lights.

In the entire entry, there is no mention of shooting, or weapons or anything like that for the vehicle with the search light.

A search light does not count as "shooting" you don't have to roll to hit, and you can target things in combat. There is NOTHING that says a searchlight is a weapon, or an attack. You don't see vehicles rolling cover saves against them do you?

While I wouldn't do it personally, if a Vendetta turbo boosts towards you to searchlight something, that's 3 less lascannons shooting you. You can turbo boost and pop smoke launchers after all. If somebody can point out where in any codex, or in the rule book it states that a search light counts as a weapon (and can then be destroyed by a weapon destroyed), I will sadly agree with you.

Of course, if the Vendetta moves flat out (turbo boost is bikes) it can't use a searchlight as it cannot fire a weapon (unless I'm missing something).

My question is if my stormbolter on my rhino is out of range but i can still see you due to rolling does my search light still go off since i am attempting to fire?

Yes, because you can still choose to fire the Storm Bolter, it just automatically fails to hit, however you don't "know" if it is in range until you check.

Thank you

Legacy40k wrote:Agreed. I just double checked in the guard codex in fact. Nowhere in the rules for a search light does it say that it is treated like a weapon, or that it can only be used when a weapon can be used. It follows no rules for shooting. It simply has to roll to see it's target to illuminate it. It doesn't even imply that if a vehicle does shoot, it's search light has to illuminate the target it is shooting at. There is nothing to suggest that It can't be used if the vehicle is stunned or shaken either.

You have misinterpreted.

You are correct in that the rules for searchlights don't explicitly state that you have to fire a weapon to use the searchlight... but what you missed is that this is just a side effect of how the shooting rules work.

The searchlight rules don't tell you to acquire a target for the searchlight. They tell you the searchlight works when you acquire a target. That's not permission to make a separate spotting roll for the searchlight. The searchlight works (and yes, there is no option... if you fire, and nightfight is in effect, the searchlight rule applies) when you successfully acquire a target. In order to acquire a target, you have to be shooting... because no permission is ever given to acquire a target without shooting.


The searchlight isn't a weapon. But you need to be using a weapon to use the searchlight.

insaniak wrote:
because no permission is ever given to acquire a target without shooting.

By that logic, a unit can't nominate a charge target unless they shot a weapon.

Legacy40k wrote:

insaniak wrote:
because no permission is ever given to acquire a target without shooting.

By that logic, a unit can't nominate a charge target unless they shot a weapon.

Not true at all.

If you shot, you can only charge what you shot.

BRB page 33 wrote:In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only assault the unit that it shot at – it cannot assault a different unit to the one it previously shot at.

rigeld2 wrote:

Legacy40k wrote:

insaniak wrote:
because no permission is ever given to acquire a target without shooting.

By that logic, a unit can't nominate a charge target unless they shot a weapon.

Not true at all.

If you shot, you can only charge what you shot.

BRB page 33 wrote:In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only assault the unit that it shot at – it cannot assault a different unit to the one it previously shot at.

And if they didn't shoot they can't charge at all then? Since you're only allowed to pick a target if you shot, you can't charge if you didn't shoot.

Legacy40k wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Legacy40k wrote:

insaniak wrote:
because no permission is ever given to acquire a target without shooting.

By that logic, a unit can't nominate a charge target unless they shot a weapon.

Not true at all.

If you shot, you can only charge what you shot.

BRB page 33 wrote:In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only assault the unit that it shot at – it cannot assault a different unit to the one it previously shot at.

And if they didn't shoot they can't charge at all then? Since you're only allowed to pick a target if you shot, you can't charge if you didn't shoot.

What? The only relation Shooting has on Assault is what I posted. (well, that and the type of weapon fired or if you ran without Fleet)

During the shooting phase (you know - when you use Searchlights) the only thing that allows a searchlight to work is picking a target. How do you pick a target? By shooting.

Page 15.
"check line of sight & pick a target
Pick one of your units, check its line of sight and choose a target for it. All models in the unit that can see at least one enemy model in the target unit may open fire."

Not must.

Legacy40k wrote:Page 15.
"check line of sight & pick a target
Pick one of your units, check its line of sight and choose a target for it. All models in the unit that can see at least one enemy model in the target unit may open fire."

Not must.

Right, and that's in the "Shooting Sequence" right?

page 15 wrote:During the Shooting phase, any and all of your units may fire. You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.

So you nominate a unit to fire, and then follow the shooting sequence.

page 62 wrote:The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers,

Oh darn, I can't nominate that unit to fire because it can't.

page 70 wrote:Fast vehicles moving flat out may fire no weapons.

Dangit - that one's out too!

This doesn't seem to be about which units can shoot. This is about which units can pick a target. It doesn't say to be allowed to pick a target you have to shoot. It just says you can't shoot if you don't pick a target.

As far as I read, the only requirement for picking a target is that you have line of sight. You don't have to have weapons, or weapons in range.

Legacy40k wrote:This doesn't seem to be about which units can shoot. This is about which units can pick a target. It doesn't say to be allowed to pick a target you have to shoot. It just says you can't shoot if you don't pick a target.

As far as I read, the only requirement for picking a target is that you have line of sight. You don't have to have weapons, or weapons in range.

To pick a target you have to start the shooting sequence. To start the shooting sequence you have to nominate the unit to fire.

If you're smoked or flat out you can't be nominated to fire because, well, you can't fire.

Okay, I'm done beating my head against a wall. Play it your way.