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Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

pretre wrote:Except that the DOW rules clearly tell you how independent characters joining a unit work. Look at the example on P93. The example deploys an IC attached to the Troop squad.

Except that in that example it has you deploying a unit then adding a character to it later. Since this is clearly in opposition to how the FAQ says to do it, shouldn't the FAQ take precedence?

I'm just missing why rulebook trumps FAQ here when it's typically the other way around.

Because the rule book never states that an IC stops being a choice from it's FOC section (usually HQ) just because it has joined a unit from another FOC section. Abilities and special rules may transfer both ways, or neither way, or something else entirely, but when DoW tells you that may only deploy x number of units from Y FOC section, that's superfluos to what state those units exist in at deployment. You look at the appropriate section and count the actual number of units listed there that have been deployed. A Farseer and Council may join and be deployed as a single unit, but they are still two units chosen and deployed from the HQ selections in the FoC.

pretre wrote:You're just wrong here. The DOW rules override normal deployment by telling you that you must choose two troop units from your troop selections and 1 HQ unit from your HQ selections and deploy them.

The FAQ does not override that. If you attach a character (HQ) to a Troop, you have selected one HQ Unit and one Troop Unit to be deployed in DOW. If you then deploy them as one unit, they act as one unit, but you still selected two separate units to be deployed.

The FAQ tells you to attach characters before you even decide what anything is going to be doing. By the time you pick your 1 HQ, and 2 Troop units they're already attached. I just don't get why everyone is so sure that the FAQ doesn't apply to DoW when there is nothing in the rules to indicate that.

You choose up to 2 units from your Troops selections, and up to 1 unit from your HQ units. (BRB)
You then decide if any IC's are joining units. (FAQ)
Then you deploy your forces.

Happyjew wrote:You choose up to 2 units from your Troops selections, and up to 1 unit from your HQ units. (BRB)
You then decide if any IC's are joining units. (FAQ)
Then you deploy your forces.

This.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bugs_N_Orks wrote: I just don't get why everyone is so sure that the FAQ doesn't apply to DoW when there is nothing in the rules to indicate that.

Everyone just doesn't get why Bugs_N_Orks is so sure that the FAQ applies to DoW when there is nothing in the rules to indicate that.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote: I just don't get why everyone is so sure that the FAQ doesn't apply to DoW when there is nothing in the rules to indicate that.

The FAQ is dealing specifically with joining ICs to units so that both can make use of special deployment rules. DoW deployment rules are dealing specifically with DoW deployment.

Yes, you can join an IC to a unit before deploying them. But as per the DoW rules, they count as two separate units for the purposes of determining how many units have been deployed.


It's not a matter of the FAQ applying or not to DoW. It's a case of the FAQ dealing with a specific part of the deployment rules, which has nothing to do with how DoW tracks unit deployment.

Q: If an Independent Character is going to begin a
game joined to a unit when should this be done? (p48)
A: You should nominate which Independent Characters
are joining units at the start of deployment before you
place any units on the board. Note that this should be
done before you nominate which units are being held
in Reserve, Deep Strike or are Outflanking etc.

Happyjew wrote:You choose up to 2 units from your Troops selections, and up to 1 unit from your HQ units. (BRB)
You then decide if any IC's are joining units. (FAQ)
Then you deploy your forces.

The FAQ seems to indicate the opposite

pretre wrote:

Bugs_N_Orks wrote: I just don't get why everyone is so sure that the FAQ doesn't apply to DoW when there is nothing in the rules to indicate that.

Everyone just doesn't get why Bugs_N_Orks is so sure that the FAQ applies to DoW when there is nothing in the rules to indicate that.

Haha, well played sir.

But I still don't get why an FAQ about deployment wouldn't affect one of the 3 Deployment options. I guess rulebook trumps FAQ unless the FAQ calls out all of specific details of the exact situation...

Bugs_N_Orks wrote: I guess rulebook trumps FAQ unless the FAQ calls out all of specific details of the exact situation...

Why don't you respond to the specific points used to refute your opinion? Several people have made valid and concise arguments regarding where you are in error.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:But I still don't get why an FAQ about deployment wouldn't affect one of the 3 Deployment options. I guess rulebook trumps FAQ unless the FAQ calls out all of specific details of the exact situation...

The whole X trumps Y thing is often misquoted. It is Specific trumps General. The Specific Dawn of War rules for their type of deployment and how units are selected override the general answer in the FAQ about deployment.

insaniak wrote:

Bugs_N_Orks wrote: I just don't get why everyone is so sure that the FAQ doesn't apply to DoW when there is nothing in the rules to indicate that.

The FAQ is dealing specifically with joining ICs to units so that both can make use of special deployment rules. DoW deployment rules are dealing specifically with DoW deployment.

Yes, you can join an IC to a unit before deploying them. But as per the DoW rules, they count as two separate units for the purposes of determining how many units have been deployed.


It's not a matter of the FAQ applying or not to DoW. It's a case of the FAQ dealing with a specific part of the deployment rules, which has nothing to do with how DoW tracks unit deployment.

Don't get me wrong I totally get where you're coming from. The FAQ was likely written to allow ICs to join units that are DSing/in a transport/etc./etc. without having to pray that they arrived from reserve on the same turn. This DoW situation is likely an unintended side effect. The example in the DoW deployment section is written how Pre-FAQ deployment worked, you deployed units, then you deployed ICs into the units. That's how it used to work for ALL deployment methods, not just DoW. Then the FAQ came along and said to join ICs to units before doing anything else. Along with allowing ICs to be joined to DSing/etc. units, why wouldn't this also alter the way DoW units are counted since that example was written using the Pre-FAQ method?

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:Along with allowing ICs to be joined to DSing/etc. units, why wouldn't this also alter the way DoW units are counted since that example was written using the Pre-FAQ method?

Because the specific rules in DoW tell you how to determine how many units you deploy, versus the general answer in the FAQ which tells you how to attach ICs during deployment.

pretre wrote:

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:Along with allowing ICs to be joined to DSing/etc. units, why wouldn't this also alter the way DoW units are counted since that example was written using the Pre-FAQ method?

Because the specific rules in DoW tell you how to determine how many units you deploy, versus the general answer in the FAQ which tells you how to attach ICs during deployment.

This... For the Love of God THIS.

I believe you mean "This... For the Love of The Emperor THIS." Unless you need a visit from the inquisition?

But yes, another voice in agreement with Specific > General, even when the general has been FAQ'd.

So ... some discussion, here.

So, I think we can ALL agree that any unit that doesn't occupy a slot in in the Force Organization Chart (unlockable units, such as troop choices, or command squads that may act independently of their IC) counts as another unit in ALL other respects. By this exchange, player would have to choose between his IC HQ or the Command Squad Unit. It is the same as choosing whether or not to deploy 1 Troop unit in a Transport, or have the Transport/Unit on the Board and the other in reserve/move on 1st turn.

That pretty much ends all discussion, period. I don't even think the FAQ matters, because of how the rules are written. Can you join HQs for purposes of Deep Strike, joining units? Yes. Can you deploy 2 HQs in Dawn of War? Never. Command Squad plus IC equals 2 HQs. Problem Solved.

Actually I appear to be mixing editions. The normal reserve rules allow for attachment in reserve/riding in transports/etc.

I guess I'm not sure what that FAQ would apply to if not DoW (shrike? seems like a lot of work for 1 guy's rules).

The FAQ specifically tells you to join ICs to units BEFORE deploying them. This is a direct change to the mechanic for joining ICs and units during deployment. All DoW says is that the player "can deploy up to two units from his Troops selections and one unit from his HQ selections" (if the player is a girl they're SOL I guess). Nothing from the FAQ is incompatible with the DoW rules. The example given in the DoW section is based on the general rules for how IC deployment worked pre-FAQ (where you would deploy a unit, then later deploy an IC in coherency with them), and the FAQ very specifically changed the rules that example is based on so the FAQ really should take precedence.

If it's one unit when it's deployed it should count as....one unit!!!

(or everyone could stop pretending that they're not actually going by KPs)

kmdl1066 wrote:I believe you mean "This... For the Love of The Emperor THIS." Unless you need a visit from the inquisition?

DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!!

Dude, you're hung up on kps. No one actually uses that for DOW.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:If it's one unit when it's deployed it should count as....one unit!!!

If you really insist on going with this logic then either:
-- You cannot deploy the combined unit at all. Because it is not a unit selected from the HQ section or a unit selected from the Troop section.
-- Or you could count it as a unit selected from the troops section AND a unit selected from the HQ section. In which case it is functionally equivalent to selecting the HQ & Troop individually and then joining them.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:I guess I'm not sure what that FAQ would apply to if not DoW (shrike? seems like a lot of work for 1 guy's rules).

Off the top of my head, I thkn it affects Karandras as well. Could be wrong there, though.

It also establishes a structure for anyone else who comes along with similar rules.

The FAQ specifically tells you to join ICs to units BEFORE deploying them.

Which doesn't change the fact that for the purposes of DoW deployment they are still counted as two separate units.

(or everyone could stop pretending that they're not actually going by KPs)

Nobody other than you is considering KP at all. They have nothing whatsoever to do with deployment.

pretre wrote:Dude, you're hung up on kps. No one actually uses that for DOW.

Especially since it can be false. An IC with a retinue is one unit but 2 KP.......................................

And a tyrant with guard is 2 units, 1 KP.

insaniak wrote:

(or everyone could stop pretending that they're not actually going by KPs)

Nobody other than you is considering KP at all. They have nothing whatsoever to do with deployment.

that wasn't actually a serious assertion, next time i'll put few of these in

don_mondo wrote:Especially since it can be false. An IC with a retinue is one unit but 2 KP.......................................

Very true...my sinister plot to prevent ICs with retinues from deploying in DoW has failed AARRGH!!! now Tau Battlesuit commanders and bodyguard are free to start 24" up the table

rigeld2 wrote:And a tyrant with guard is 2 units, 1 KP.

That's a pretty solid grey area (INAT 'clarifies' that as 1 unit for DoW deployment fyi)

kmdl1066 wrote:If you really insist on going with this logic then either:
-- You cannot deploy the combined unit at all. Because it is not a unit selected from the HQ section or a unit selected from the Troop section.
-- Or you could count it as a unit selected from the troops section AND a unit selected from the HQ section. In which case it is functionally equivalent to selecting the HQ & Troop individually and then joining them.

In the instance the OP posted (Farseer + Warlocks) it's one unit from the HQ section at the time it's deployed.

insaniak wrote:

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:I guess I'm not sure what that FAQ would apply to if not DoW (shrike? seems like a lot of work for 1 guy's rules).

Off the top of my head, I thkn it affects Karandras as well. Could be wrong there, though.

It also establishes a structure for anyone else who comes along with similar rules.

True, good point.

insaniak wrote:

The FAQ specifically tells you to join ICs to units BEFORE deploying them.

Which doesn't change the fact that for the purposes of DoW deployment they are still counted as two separate units.

It just as easily could change the way they are counted for DoW since the FAQ fundamentally changes the way ICs joining units are deployed.

DoW counts units. The FAQ changed what used to be 2 separate units deploying into 1 single unit deploying. So what used to count as 2 units now is 1 unit. It's really not that crazy.

I find the concept of "DoW units" being somehow different than actual units to be odd. DoW didn't have any special privileges pre-FAQ, it just used the all of the normal rules for deploying units. The example in the rulebook was just that, an example that clarified how it worked pre-FAQ when it was 2 separate units deploying, but the underlying rules for deploying have changed since then.


Completely unrelated tangent:
For another example of how changes to underlying rules make for odd situations, take the BT chapter banner: if a unit with it is charged it gets +1A and Counter Attack. Back when that book was written Counter Attack just let you make a 'defenders react' move, but now with the 5e rules it gives you +1A (assuming you pass your Ld check). So if you charge that unit they get +2A now.

Also Calgar doesn't have grenades (possibly the the only power armored marine in the universe) - that was extra unrelated but i just noticed it

BGB FAQ wrote:Q: If an Independent Character is going to begin a
game joined to a unit when should this be done? (p48)
A: You should nominate which Independent Characters
are joining units at the start of deployment before you
place any units on the board. Note that this should be
done before you nominate which units are being held
in Reserve, Deep Strike or are Outflanking etc.

Nowhere does this give you permission to deploy two units "from your H.Q. selections" in DoW. As I said earlier, " A Farseer and Council may join and be deployed as a single unit, but they are still two units chosen and deployed from the HQ selections in the FoC." The limit is not simply one "HQ unit" and two "Troops units", but "One unit from your H.Q. selections, and two units from your Troops selections". If at the beginning of the game, you look at the H.Q. units you have selected on your FoC, and two of them are deployed on the table, then you have deployed illegally.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:DoW counts units. The FAQ changed what used to be 2 separate units deploying into 1 single unit deploying. So what used to count as 2 units now is 1 unit. It's really not that crazy.

The FAQ didn't change that at all. Previously, you joined the IC to the unit by deploying them in coherency with the unit. In most cases, you could do that at the same time as you deployed the unit, or you could do it later in your deployment, it made no practical difference... deployment all happens at the same time anyway.

However, there where certain specific cases, like Shrike, where a special rule required the IC to be joined to the unit before they were actually placed on the table in order for a special rule to work. That is the situation the FAQ was addressing. It didn't change the normal deployment process at all. It just altered the timing of when you consider the IC to be joined to the unit in order to allow special rules that require pre-joining to work.

How DoW counts the units is not affected in the slightest.

To think such confusion from what should be a common occurrence in the game ...

evildrspock wrote:To think such confusion from what should be a common occurrence in the game ...

Especially since, as Mannahnin listed on the first page, if you just read the rulebook it is crystal clear.

Someone is just a bit confused.

Ok having read this I am now confused. Which of these are possible deployments under dawn of war

1) Captain + 2 10 man tac squads
2) Captain + 1 10 man tac squad combat squadded
3) Captain + 2 10 man tac squads in dedicated Rhinos
4) Captain + 1 10 man tac squad with dedicated Rhino when combat squadded.
5) Captain + 2 10 man tac squads combat squadded

RFHolloway wrote:Ok having read this I am now confused. Which of these are possible deployments under dawn of war

1) Captain + 2 10 man tac squads Possible (1 HQ, 2 troop units)
2) Captain + 1 10 man tac squad combat squadded Possible (1 HQ, 2 troop units after deployment)
3) Captain + 2 10 man tac squads in dedicated Rhinos Not possible (1 HQ, 4 troop units)
4) Captain + 1 10 man tac squad with dedicated Rhino when combat squadded. Not possible (1 HQ, 3 troop units after deployment)
5) Captain + 2 10 man tac squads combat squadded Not possible (1 HQ, 4 troop units after deployment has finished)

Edit: I was wrong on the Combat Squads. Reason why they don't work is that DoW I missed the "as long as at the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table." requirement. Underlined the edits

My answers in color. My reasoning for Combat Squads only counting as one troop unit for purposes of deployment comes from following C:SM FAQ answer:

Q: When Infiltrating a unit of 10 Space Marines with the Infiltrate special rule, can both Combat Squads be deployed in different locations? In addition, does this still only count as a single deployment? (p51)
A: Yes to both questions.

Luide wrote:

RFHolloway wrote:Ok having read this I am now confused. Which of these are possible deployments under dawn of war

1) Captain + 2 10 man tac squads Possible (1 HQ, 2 troop units)
2) Captain + 1 10 man tac squad combat squadded Possible (1 HQ, 1 troop unit)
3) Captain + 2 10 man tac squads in dedicated Rhinos Not possible (1 HQ, 4 troop units)
4) Captain + 1 10 man tac squad with dedicated Rhino when combat squadded. Possible (1 HQ, 2 troop units)
5) Captain + 2 10 man tac squads combat squadded Possible (1 HQ, 2 troop units)

My answers in color. My reasoning for Combat Squads only counting as one troop unit for purposes of deployment comes from following C:SM FAQ answer:

Q: When Infiltrating a unit of 10 Space Marines with the Infiltrate special rule, can both Combat Squads be deployed in different locations? In addition, does this still only count as a single deployment? (p51)
A: Yes to both questions.

And again, the FAQ does not change the total number of units you are allowed to deploy. The two combat squads will still count as two units, even tho they are a single 'deployment'. The

Only 1 and 2 would be legal DoW deployments. 2 is 1 HQ TWO Troops units (you count how many units you have once you have finished deploying, so a single tac squad broken into two combat squads counts as two units for DoW).
3, 4 and 5 are no goes. 3 is a single HQ and FOUR Troops, 4 would be THREE Troops, and 5 would be FOUR Troops again.

Luide wrote:My answers in color. My reasoning for Combat Squads only counting as one troop unit for purposes of deployment comes from following C:SM FAQ answer:

Q: When Infiltrating a unit of 10 Space Marines with the Infiltrate special rule, can both Combat Squads be deployed in different locations? In addition, does this still only count as a single deployment? (p51)
A: Yes to both questions.

Not sure how you're getting that from the FAQ. They infiltrate at the same time because both combat squads have to be deployed at the same time... but as soon as you decide to combat squad them, they are two separate units. Which is why the FAQ points out that they can be deployed in separate locations.

If you split into Combat squads, you can only deploy a single Marine squad, because the DoW rules state that at the end of deployment you can have a maximum of 2 Troops units on the table... and two Combat squads are two units.

don_mondo wrote:you count how many units you have once you have finished deploying

insaniak wrote:because the DoW rules state that at the end of deployment you can have a maximum of 2 Troops units on the table... and two Combat squads are two units.

So once you've finished deploying a farseer attached to a warlock squad how many HQ units are on the table?.....

So deploying a SM Captain attached to a Command squad is illegal because they're 2 units during list creation, even though they're only 1 unit at the time of deployment and after deployment.
But combat squading 2 10 man marine units is also illegal because even though they're only 2 units during list creation, they're 4 units after deployment.

Huh