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Bugs_N_Orks wrote:So once you've finished deploying a farseer attached to a warlock squad how many HQ units are on the table?.....

Counting the units at the end of eployment is only one of the steps.

You can only deploy 1 HQ and 2 Troop units. That applies from the time you start deploying. The rules then impose an additional check, which is that at the end of deployment, you can only have a max of 1 HQ and 2 Troop units. That second check is there specifically to cover units like Marines who can become two separate units.


So yes, this:

So deploying a SM Captain attached to a Command squad is illegal because they're 2 units during list creation, even though they're only 1 unit at the time of deployment and after deployment.
But combat squading 2 10 man marine units is also illegal because even though they're only 2 units during list creation, they're 4 units after deployment.

...is correct.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

don_mondo wrote:you count how many units you have once you have finished deploying

insaniak wrote:because the DoW rules state that at the end of deployment you can have a maximum of 2 Troops units on the table... and two Combat squads are two units.

So once you've finished deploying a farseer attached to a warlock squad how many HQ units are on the table?.....

So deploying a SM Captain attached to a Command squad is illegal because they're 2 units during list creation, even though they're only 1 unit at the time of deployment and after deployment.
But combat squading 2 10 man marine units is also illegal because even though they're only 2 units during list creation, they're 4 units after deployment.

Huh

Farseer and Warlock = 2 HQ units
SM Captain and Command squad = 2 HQ units
2 x Tactical squads combat squadded = 4 units.

I'm really not seeing how this is confusing.

insaniak wrote:

Luide wrote:My answers in color. My reasoning for Combat Squads only counting as one troop unit for purposes of deployment comes from following C:SM FAQ answer:

Q: When Infiltrating a unit of 10 Space Marines with the Infiltrate special rule, can both Combat Squads be deployed in different locations? In addition, does this still only count as a single deployment? (p51)
A: Yes to both questions.

Not sure how you're getting that from the FAQ. They infiltrate at the same time because both combat squads have to be deployed at the same time... but as soon as you decide to combat squad them, they are two separate units. Which is why the FAQ points out that they can be deployed in separate locations.

If you split into Combat squads, you can only deploy a single Marine squad, because the DoW rules state that at the end of deployment you can have a maximum of 2 Troops units on the table... and two Combat squads are two units.

Yup, and the "still only count as a single deployment" part refers to the fact that if both players have Infiltrators, you alternate placing units.

don_mondo wrote:Farseer joined to Warlocks = 1 HQ unit
SM Captain joined to Command squad = 1 HQ unit
2 x Tactical squads combat squadded = 4 units.

I'm really not seeing how this is confusing.

Fixed that lol.

So, from the top:

The IC rulebook FAQ says:
"Q: If an Independent Character is going to begin a
game joined to a unit when should this be done? (p48)
A: You should nominate which Independent Characters
are joining units at the start of deployment before you
place any units on the board. Note that this should be
done before you nominate which units are being held
in Reserve, Deep Strike or are Outflanking etc."

The example deployment given in the DoW box that everyone is so enamored with,
"player B then deploys a unit of Troops, already embarked into
their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of
Troops). He then deploys an independent character from
his HQ, joining the unit embarked in the transport."
is actually completely illegal according to the (obviously more recent) IC FAQ. Once you deploy a unit you are past the point where you can join ICs to units. Call me crazy, but when the rules are updated to a point where an example outlines a clearly illegal situation, perhaps that example might not be the best place to look for rules information.

Omitting illegal/obsolete examples we are then left with what the actual DoW rules say:
"He then can deploy up to two units from
his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ
selections in his half of the table"

If the Farseer and warlocks are joined before they are deployed, how many units are you deploying when you place them on the table?

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

If the Farseer and warlocks are joined before they are deployed, how many units from your HQ selections are you deploying when you place them on the table?

Added the part you left out. And the answer is two units from your HQ selections.

insaniak wrote:

Luide wrote:My answers in color. My reasoning for Combat Squads only counting as one troop unit for purposes of deployment comes from following C:SM FAQ answer:

Q: When Infiltrating a unit of 10 Space Marines with the Infiltrate special rule, can both Combat Squads be deployed in different locations? In addition, does this still only count as a single deployment? (p51)
A: Yes to both questions.

Not sure how you're getting that from the FAQ. They infiltrate at the same time because both combat squads have to be deployed at the same time... but as soon as you decide to combat squad them, they are two separate units. Which is why the FAQ points out that they can be deployed in separate locations.

If you split into Combat squads, you can only deploy a single Marine squad, because the DoW rules state that at the end of deployment you can have a maximum of 2 Troops units on the table... and two Combat squads are two units.

Yeah, you're right. I only read the "He then can deploy up to two units from his Troops selections" but missed the "as long as at the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table."

I'll edit the answers

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:If the Farseer and warlocks are joined before they are deployed, how many units are you deploying when you place them on the table?

You're deploying them as a single unit, but you are still deploying two units from your HQ section.

Dawn of War covers both of those. You can only deploy 1 HQ unit from your HQ section, and at the end of your deployment you can only have 1 HQ unit on the table.

Joining an IC to a HQ unit satisfies the latter, but not the former.

Nothing in the rules stops an IC from being a unit in his own right, even while joined to another unit.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/448691.page#4267840

Look, I solved two problems with one fell swoop! Hooray!

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Farseer joined to Warlocks = 1 HQ unit
SM Captain joined to Command squad = 1 HQ unit
2 x Tactical squads combat squadded = 4 units.

I'm really not seeing how this is confusing.

Fixed that lol.

Don-No, actually, I had it correct, your 'correctin' is blatantly incorrect.
<Cut out irrelevant and incorrect rules:>

If the Farseer and warlocks are joined before they are deployed, how many units are you deploying when you place them on the table?

Two, They are still two units from your HQ selection FOR PURPOSES OF DAWN OF WAR DEPLOYMENT. Forget about what's joined to what, the DoW example makes this clear, with the example of an HQ IC joined to a Troops squad. Sure you're only placing the one combined unit but it's two different units joined together.

Bluntly put, you're wrong, you've been wrong from the beginning and everyone but you sees it. I'm done beating my head on against a brick wall.

Kitzz wrote:Nothing in the rules stops an IC from being a unit in his own right, even while joined to another unit.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/448691.page#4267840

Look, I solved two problems with one fell swoop! Hooray!

FWIW I attempted to argue this in the canonness thread recently and was met with quite a bit of resistance.

Lordhat wrote:And the answer is two units from your HQ selections.

insaniak wrote:You're deploying them as a single unit, but you are still deploying two units from your HQ section.

Dawn of War covers both of those. You can only deploy 1 HQ unit from your HQ section, and at the end of your deployment you can only have 1 HQ unit on the table.

Joining an IC to a HQ unit satisfies the latter, but not the former.

So before the latest IG FAQ came out, how did you guys play IG blobs in DoW? 3 infantry squads blobbed up deploys as one unit (because it is one unit at the time they're deployed, just like the farseer+warlocks), but it's also clearly 3 units from your troops selections (so should fail the same requirement that you claim Farseer+Warlocks fails). If you permit one and disallow the other that seems like a bit of a double standard.

Kitzz wrote:Nothing in the rules stops an IC from being a unit in his own right, even while joined to another unit.

So do Immotech's Lightning/Lightning Fields roll to hit both the squad and the attached IC since it's still a unit in it's own right? Lightning sniping FTW!!!

@ Bugs_N_Orks

Anything that can move separately from other units at any point is a unit for KP and DOW. So an IG blob, which cannot separate, is one unit, and was one unit for DOW before the FAQ. A Farseer can leave a Seer Council, so those are two units, before and after the FAQ. Combat Squads, while one unit on the roster, are two units on the board, for all purposes including DOW. Yes, there can be exceptions, but those are the general rules.

For shooting, an IC joined to a unit is a single unit, the BRB answers this completely and there is no point in picking at other people's posts to be obnoxious.

Not a single word of your rules quotes supports your position, the question has been addressed repeatedly by patient people. Just stop arguing, you're wrong and you only have a couple more months of 5e left; no chance you'll convince anyone to believe you in that time.

jwolf wrote: Anything that can move separately from other units at any point is a unit for KP and DOW.

So a Devilfish is 2 units for DoW deployment since it can drop its drones and split into 2 units that can move separately at some point in the future? And what do KPs have to do with anything?

The Devilfish is a curious question, because the drones are essentially a spawned unit, not a unit in their own right. That is to say, they aren't passengers in the strict sense, as they are destroyed if the vehicle they are on is destroyed. But they also can clearly move separately, and form their own unit and a KP. But the drones cannot begin the game anywhere except on their vehicle (they can separate in any movement phase), so I would call the Devilfish an exception and treat it as one Troop unit for DOW (as a judge/opponent). You will note that I said there are exceptions to the general rule; I feel comfortable with an ancient Codex having one of those exceptions.

Perhaps modifying the general rule above to: "Anything that can deploy separately from other units or move separately from other units at any point is a unit for KP and DOW, unless it has a special rule that states otherwise" which will cover the gun drones on a Devilfish.

rigeld2 wrote:And a tyrant with guard is 2 units, 1 KP.

It is a very very weird situation as the Tyrant is not an IC, and can only be joined to Tyrant guard. If he joins the tyrant guard then it is one unit and the Tyrant can not leave it, as it has now become an "upgrade" character. The unit now counts as 1 KP, and 1 Unit effectively. If ignoring INAT, this does get weird with DoW

From the FAQ: “A single Hive Tyrant
(including the Swarmlord) may join a unit of Tyrant
Guard during deployment exactly as if it were an
Independent Character.

Q: If a Hive Tyrant or the Swarmlord joins a unit of
Tyrant Guard, is it treated as an Independent Character
for the purposes of resolving shooting attacks (i.e.
independent characters who are monstrous creatures
can be targeted separately from the unit) and assaults
(i.e. independent characters always count as separate
units in an assault)? (p35)
A: No.

Q: Can a Hive Tyrant or the Swarmlord choose to leave
a unit of Tyrant Guard once it has joined them? (p35)
A: No.
"

The Tyrant issue does bring up a question do things like Tyrant guard or Command Squads count as HQ? The Tyrant guard specially do not count toward an HQ FOC slot limit. Do the Seer Council?

barnowl wrote:The Tyrant issue does bring up a question do things like Tyrant guard or Command Squads count as HQ? The Tyrant guard specially do not count toward an HQ FOC slot limit. Do the Seer Council?

If they are selected from the HQ section, they count as a HQ unit. Whether or not that use up a force org slot has no bearing on that.

insaniak wrote:

barnowl wrote:The Tyrant issue does bring up a question do things like Tyrant guard or Command Squads count as HQ? The Tyrant guard specially do not count toward an HQ FOC slot limit. Do the Seer Council?

If they are selected from the HQ section, they count as a HQ unit. Whether or not that use up a force org slot has no bearing on that.

So a Tyrant can't deploy with his Guard?
edit: note that I am not disagreeing, just looking for clarification

insaniak wrote:

barnowl wrote:The Tyrant issue does bring up a question do things like Tyrant guard or Command Squads count as HQ? The Tyrant guard specially do not count toward an HQ FOC slot limit. Do the Seer Council?

If they are selected from the HQ section, they count as a HQ unit. Whether or not that use up a force org slot has no bearing on that.

Thanks, I thought that was the case, this whole thread had me over thinking.

rigeld2 wrote:So a Tyrant can't deploy with his Guard?

I wouldn't think so.

rigeld2 wrote:

insaniak wrote:

barnowl wrote:The Tyrant issue does bring up a question do things like Tyrant guard or Command Squads count as HQ? The Tyrant guard specially do not count toward an HQ FOC slot limit. Do the Seer Council?

If they are selected from the HQ section, they count as a HQ unit. Whether or not that use up a force org slot has no bearing on that.

So a Tyrant can't deploy with his Guard?

Depends on if you use INAT or not? By RAW, no; which means no you have to walk the tyrant and guard on at the start of turn one. By INAT, yes do to very weird nature of Tyrant and Guard interaction.

Fair enough - it's a weird enough interaction that I've always played it as INAT ruled it without realizing that wasn't RAW.

I always thought that the Tyrant and the Guard were similar to an IG blob squad in that once joined they could not separate again.

Ghaz wrote:I always thought that the Tyrant and the Guard were similar to an IG blob squad in that once joined they could not separate again.

They can't. That doesn't have any bearing on DoW deployment.

And why not? It would be no difference then deploying two IG Infantry Squads blobbed together pre-FAQ as a single unit.

...which also shouldn't have been allowed.

insaniak wrote:...which also shouldn't have been allowed.

I agree.

feth, 6th edition cannot come soon enough!

SlaveToDorkness wrote:feth, 6th edition cannot come soon enough!

Which has been said about 4th, and 5th. 6th will have just as many problems as all the previous editions did, and if history is anything to go by, a few of them won't even be NEW problems.

Lordhat wrote:

insaniak wrote:...which also shouldn't have been allowed.

I agree.

Yeah, if only the IG codex hadn't been so specific about the blob being a single unit from that point on.............................

don_mondo wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

insaniak wrote:...which also shouldn't have been allowed.

I agree.

Yeah, if only the IG codex hadn't been so specific about the blob being a single unit from that point on.............................

Which is fundamentally no different than joining an IC to another unit, in regards to DoW.

insaniak wrote:
Counting the units at the end of deployment is only one of the steps.

You can only deploy 1 HQ and 2 Troop units. That applies from the time you start deploying. The rules then impose an additional check, which is that at the end of deployment, you can only have a max of 1 HQ and 2 Troop units. That second check is there specifically to cover units like Marines who can become two separate units.