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Is a unit such as an Eldar Jetbike Seer Council (with an HQ unit and an unlockable Warlock unit) able to deploy on the board for Dawn of War? Or would this count as 2 units? (Farseer may leave the squad and act independently if he chooses, they are NOT a retinue, but don't occupy a Force Organization slot).

Two units. Force org has nothing to do with it.

DoW sucks for seer councils

I'd figure its pretty clear: 1 HQ and 1 troop unit. If its not a retinue (which barely exists anymore) or a transport, nothing else gets on the board.

If they are not an HQ, not a troop choice, and not a retinue I would expect that you could not deploy them. That's just a guess though.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I'd figure its pretty clear: 1 HQ and 1 troop unit. If its not a retinue (which barely exists anymore) or a transport, nothing else gets on the board.

Transport are also units

They count as a HQ choice, in the same way a rhino would count as a troops choice for the purposes of DoW.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I'd figure its pretty clear: 1 HQ and 1 troop unit. If its not a retinue (which barely exists anymore) or a transport, nothing else gets on the board.

Actually it's one HQ and TWO Troops units, and transports count against that limit. See the player B example in the DoW rules.

don_mondo wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I'd figure its pretty clear: 1 HQ and 1 troop unit. If its not a retinue (which barely exists anymore) or a transport, nothing else gets on the board.

Actually it's one HQ and TWO Troops units, and transports count against that limit. See the player B example in the DoW rules.

You serious bro?
Looks like I've been playing this wrong then.
Actually whenever I play mech guard I always just leave them all in reserve and come on turn 1, but still.

It's right in the example. With a Chimera, even. And Multiple Unit Choices is on the immediately facing page.

People need to read the rules.

Joey wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I'd figure its pretty clear: 1 HQ and 1 troop unit. If its not a retinue (which barely exists anymore) or a transport, nothing else gets on the board.

Actually it's one HQ and TWO Troops units, and transports count against that limit. See the player B example in the DoW rules.

You serious bro?
Looks like I've been playing this wrong then.
Actually whenever I play mech guard I always just leave them all in reserve and come on turn 1, but still.

OK, bear in mind that IG get to treat an entire platoon as a single Troops unit for deployment in DoW, per the newest FAQ.

Page 96 – Infantry Platoon, second sentence
Change to “Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place
of a single unit in missions that limit the number units
that can be deployed. In addition when making a
reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole
Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are
embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead
rolled for separately.”

Suggest you run a search as I know this was discussed a good bit back when it came out.

I knew platoons could deploy as one just not veterans w/chimeras.
There's little reason to deploy them anyway though, rather just roll on the board turn 1 and deny the enemy his shooting phase.
Did this the other day vs some 'nids and wiped out ~60% of his army in one phase, he conceded at the start of my Turn 2 Shooting Phase
So yeah I wouldn't say it was a nerf, not for guard anyway.

evildrspock wrote:Is a unit such as an Eldar Jetbike Seer Council (with an HQ unit and an unlockable Warlock unit) able to deploy on the board for Dawn of War? Or would this count as 2 units? (Farseer may leave the squad and act independently if he chooses, they are NOT a retinue, but don't occupy a Force Organization slot).

When it comes to DoW deployment most people seem to go by Kill Points, not by units actually. The rulebook FAQ tells you to join characters to units BEFORE they're deployed:

Rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: If an Independent Character is going to begin a
game joined to a unit when should this be done? (p48)
A: You should nominate which Independent Characters
are joining units at the start of deployment before you
place any units on the board. Note that this should be
done before you nominate which units are being held
in Reserve, Deep Strike or are Outflanking etc.

So if you join the Farseer to the Warlock unit then they're only 1 unit at the time they're placed. This is different to how the example in the rulebook says to do it, but FAQs by definition over-ride the rulebook. I'm not sure why people ignore this one but follow the IG one, but 1 HQ and 2 Troop Kill Points are how everyone seems to play it.

@Bugs_N_Orks: Yeah, that's patently wrong. I won't speak to how 'most people' play it, but the rulebook says units. So you cannot deploy a Farseer + Warlock unit in DOW.

CaptainJay wrote:They count as a HQ choice, in the same way a rhino would count as a troops choice for the purposes of DoW.

It's not choices, it's units. Otherwise you could deploy two tactical squads combat squaded with Rhinos and it would be legal (this is two troops choices but six troops units).

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:When it comes to DoW deployment most people seem to go by Kill Points, not by units actually.

That might be the way it's done where you are, but from my experience most people go by the actual rules, which say units.

Added to which, a Farseer joined to another unit is still two Kill Points. They function as a single unit during the game, but they are still two separate units for Kill Points, and two separate units for DoW.

pretre wrote: @Bugs_N_Orks: Yeah, that's patently wrong.

Sorry but I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to.

pretre wrote:I won't speak to how 'most people' play it, but the rulebook says units.

I totally agree.

pretre wrote:So you cannot deploy a Farseer + Warlock unit in DOW.

See, you called it a 'unit' (singular). Since they're joined before being placed I'm not seeing how they count as more than 1 unit (and again I know what the rulebook example says but the IC rulebook FAQ should over-ride that).

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

pretre wrote: @Bugs_N_Orks: Yeah, that's patently wrong.

Sorry but I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to.

Your contention that you can deploy multiple units in DOW.

pretre wrote:So you cannot deploy a Farseer + Warlock unit in DOW.

See, you called it a 'unit' (singular). Since they're joined before being placed I'm not seeing how they count as more than 1 unit (and again I know what the rulebook example says but the IC rulebook FAQ should over-ride that).

The FAQ is explaining how ICs join units pre-game. It has nothing to do with the Dawn of War rules, which differ from the normal deployment rules.

The FAQ is there to allow you to join ICs to units that are going to use some sort of special deployment (Shrike, for example). It's not a blanket change to DoW.

insaniak wrote: Added to which, a Farseer joined to another unit is still two Kill Points.

Hence why most people would not allow that to be deployed in DoW. My point is that people think they're going by units, but they're actually paying attention to KPs.

insaniak wrote:They function as a single unit during the game, but they are still two separate units for Kill Points, and two separate units for DoW.

Actually according to the rulebook FAQ they're a single unit before they're placed (before anything is placed actually), so aside from the rulebook example (which the FAQ clearly over-rides) is there anything anywhere that would indicate that DoW sees them as more than 1 unit (hint: Nope)

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:Hence why most people would not allow that to be deployed in DoW. My point is that people think they're going by units, but they're actually paying attention to KPs.

Except, as I just pointed out, they are also 2 Kill Points, not 1.

The rules for DoW states "Player one deploys x units from his y selections". This means you look at your selections for that FOC section and pick that many units, no more. Regardless of whether or not two HQ units can combine and count as one unit during the game, you have still "deployed two units from your HQ selections". You must count the number of units that have been selected and deployed from each FOC section regardless of how they are counted DURING the game. Otherwise, by joining an HQ to a troops unit during deployment, you would either have one troop unit and no HQ, or one HQ and one less troops unit for purposes of DoW.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

insaniak wrote:They function as a single unit during the game, but they are still two separate units for Kill Points, and two separate units for DoW.

Actually according to the rulebook FAQ they're a single unit before they're placed (before anything is placed actually), so aside from the rulebook example (which the FAQ clearly over-rides) is there anything anywhere that would indicate that DoW sees them as more than 1 unit (hint: Nope)

You're just wrong here. The DOW rules override normal deployment by telling you that you must choose two troop units from your troop selections and 1 HQ unit from your HQ selections and deploy them.

The FAQ does not override that. If you attach a character (HQ) to a Troop, you have selected one HQ Unit and one Troop Unit to be deployed in DOW. If you then deploy them as one unit, they act as one unit, but you still selected two separate units to be deployed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ninja'd by LordHat.

Illumini wrote:Two units. Force org has nothing to do with it.

pretre wrote:Q: If an Independent Character is going to begin a
game joined to a unit when should this be done? (p48)
A: You should nominate which Independent Characters
are joining units at the start of deployment before you
place any units on the board. Note that this should be
done before you nominate which units are being held
in Reserve, Deep Strike or are Outflanking etc.

You still deployed 2 troops and an HQ units, but once the HQ is attached it is no longer a separate unit, it is a combined unit (as per P48). .

As pretre pointed out in the SoB and Acts of Faith thread, IC's join at the beginning of deployment, before placing the models down.

Happyjew wrote:

pretre wrote:Q: If an Independent Character is going to begin a
game joined to a unit when should this be done? (p48)
A: You should nominate which Independent Characters
are joining units at the start of deployment before you
place any units on the board. Note that this should be
done before you nominate which units are being held
in Reserve, Deep Strike or are Outflanking etc.

You still deployed 2 troops and an HQ units, but once the HQ is attached it is no longer a separate unit, it is a combined unit (as per P48). .

As pretre pointed out in the SoB and Acts of Faith thread, IC's join at the beginning of deployment, before placing the models down.

And?

They are a combined unit, but you still chose two HQs units from your HQ selections to put down, which is illegal.

pretre wrote:Except that the DOW rules clearly tell you how independent characters joining a unit work. Look at the example on P93. The example deploys an IC attached to the Troop squad.

Except that in that example it has you deploying a unit then adding a character to it later. Since this is clearly in opposition to how the FAQ says to do it, shouldn't the FAQ take precedence?

I'm just missing why rulebook trumps FAQ here when it's typically the other way around.

pretre wrote:Does that mean he deployed zero HQ units? Of course not.

Call me crazy (many have), but I'd say yes. I'd call a Troop with an attached IC (from any slot) 1 Troop unit for DoW deployment. The character becomes a part of the unit for all other purposes. Even slot specific abilities (like claiming objectives) are conferred to the IC while he's a part of the unit (ie: if an HQ IC is joined to a Troop unit and the IC is the only model within 3" of the objective, you're still claiming the objective because your troop unit has a model within 3")

And I'm pretty sure you're misquoting me. Link the actual post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Read the later posts. DOW is an exception to normal deployment since you have to choose units you want to deploy before deploying.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote: I'd call a Troop with an attached IC (from any slot) 1 Troop unit for DoW deployment.

The Dawn of War rules quite explicitly disagree.


Yes, they count as one unit while they are joined... for all in-game purposes except Dawn of War, because the Dawn of War rules specifically state otherwise.

This is why Guard love DoW so much.

2 Infantry Platoons, along with Chimeras with free Searchlights?

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-