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elrabin wrote:

Joey wrote:Only in America is it regarded as an issue worthy of debate.
If you can seceed from a nation state then it's fething pointless having one in the first place.

Because Scotland is not trying to gain independence from the UK.

Actually that remains to be seen. What we do know is there are some in Scotland who wish to secede. We won't actually know what Scotland wants until they have a referendum on it. They won't leave, more's the pity.

Albatross wrote:Actually that remains to be seen. What we do know is there are some in Scotland who wish to secede. We won't actually know what Scotland wants until they have a referendum on it. They won't leave, more's the pity.

Has Great Britain accepted that Scotland could secede if it wished? Seems like a pretty big deal.

Biccat, if a majority votes for independance in the forthcoming referendum, then Scotland will be able to secede, and the greatest alliance the world has ever seen will be one member short.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Biccat, if a majority votes for independance in the forthcoming referendum, then Scotland will be able to secede, and the greatest alliance the world has ever seen will be one member short.

Interesting. Because that's exactly what led to the Civil War. A number of states voted to secede from the Union and...well, the North didn't take it too well.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Biccat, if a majority votes for independance in the forthcoming referendum, then Scotland will be able to secede, and the greatest alliance the world has ever seen will be one member short.

And the Jacobins will finally celebrate victory! The South North will rise again.

The question is whether or not we (the English, Welsh and Northern Irish) get a vote on Scottish Independence. I'm of the opinion that if the rest of us got a say, Scotland would get indendence.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Biccat, if a majority votes for independance in the forthcoming referendum, then Scotland will be able to secede..

No, It is still the decision of Parliament. Referenda are not constitutionally binding.

Did anyone get to vote in the elected mayor referendum yesterday?

This thread is now about Britain.


I didn't get to vote for elected mayors, and I'm in Manchester, one of the cities being balloted for it. Strange.

I think where I live is technically Bury, so that would do it, I guess.

I think the real question is, If Scotland breaks off will they attempt to physically sever Scotland from England to create a new island?

And what will England do without Bagpipes?

Grey Templar wrote:I think the real question is, If Scotland breaks off will they attempt to physically sever Scotland from England to create a new island?

And what will England do without Bagpipes?

Cry. For about two seconds. Then they'll shrug it off with a stiff upper lip.

No.

This is the United States of America. We may not like eachother but we're forced to work out a compromise for the good of the nation as a whole, and it makes us stronger where division would weaken us.

What aabout Kilts?
Also, Why would people secede from ne of the most powerful nations in the world.

Spite.

biccat wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Biccat, if a majority votes for independance in the forthcoming referendum, then Scotland will be able to secede, and the greatest alliance the world has ever seen will be one member short.

Interesting. Because that's exactly what led to the Civil War. A number of states voted to secede from the Union and...well, the North didn't take it too well.

ill

Still don't; why do you think most of the Nukes are in the North and most of the heavily populated states are in the South?

hotsauceman1 wrote:Also, Why would people secede from ne of the most powerful nations in the world.

Because the U.S. isn't as powerful as everyone beleives. What made us powerful was our Industry and ingenuity, and that has been replaced by buying everything from China and wasting our time on things that don't matter. I don't give a feth that Margerine.... no... BUTTER is worse for you, oh wait, no.... Margerine is worse- no, wait it's butter. I don't care. Take that money, put it to good use elsewhere.....

I know we are not as powerful as we beleive, but still not a god idea to secede.

Oh agreed, But still....

It's a little iffy that, if the Nationalists have their way, Scots who live south of the border shan't have a say in the vote.

A referendum may not be constitutionally binding, but I think that it will give a lot of impetus to independence... I can't see there being any bloodshed or the like though.

What bothers me, mind, is that I don't know if there was much of a problem before Labour thought it would be wise to start dishing out devolution left, right and centre and giving people all these crazy ideas :p Nationalism is stronger in Wales now, despite the fact that, when they voted for an assembly, the positives only carried it by less than a percent or something ridiculous. I worry that there was no impetus for devolution and that Labour, in the name of ideals, went and created schisms in the union.

Still, if they want independence, give it to them... 80% of our GDP is in London anyway, it probably means less subsidies, benefits, etc. for all those poor provincials... but if they touch our oil then, God-willing, we'll send in the Navy!

I have plenty of Scottish mates as they make up about 5% of the RM, but if we are ignoring individuals and drawing blanket statements about nations as a whole, then I dislike the Scots, and I think that the English have got so tired of the unending hatred and bigotry on the part of the Scots that if they did leave nobody would give two feths.

I don't know a single person who cares, and after being based up in Scotland and seeing that a sizeable percentage of them raise their children to hate, frankly I like them about as much as the Iraqis.

I also claim the moral high ground, because my granddad was a Scot, so I read Oor Wullie when I was a kid and supported Scotland in the football, it was only upon reaching adulthood and seeing that the Scots actively encourage hatred for their neighbours that I decided to play them at their own game and repay the hatred in kind. The English simply do not reciprocate the hatred and breed it into their kids the way that the Scots do, and too a much lesser extent the Welsh and the Irish. But the Scots take the biscuit, I think the Irish are positively over friendly in comparison!

I mean, I suppose I can understand it with the history, but feth me.. its been literally hundreds of years since a war! I know its pretty childish, but I'm not Jesus, I'm not strong enough to turn the other cheek.. hatred raises my morale!

Henners91 wrote:

Joey wrote:Only in America is it regarded as an issue worthy of debate.
If you can seceed from a nation state then it's fething pointless having one in the first place.
Hey i don't want to pay taxes, I'll secede.
My neighbour doesn't want to pay taxes, he'll secede as well.
Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy

You're calling it irrelevant when Scottish secession by referendum is a very real possibility?

It applies just as much here as over there.

Scotland is a country with its own cultural identity and language.
What we're talking about here is Lincolnshire leaving England because of the Westminister government's smoking ban, or something similar.
Similarly the arguments for a Native American succession have some credibility to them, but not winging malcontents who don't like paying taxes.


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mattyrm wrote: I have plenty of Scottish mates as they make up about 5% of the RM, but if we are ignoring individuals and drawing blanket statements about nations as a whole, then I dislike the Scots, and I think that the English have got so tired of the unending hatred and bigotry on the part of the Scots that if they did leave nobody would give two feths.

I don't know a single person who cares, and after being based up in Scotland and seeing that a sizeable percentage of them raise their children to hate, frankly I like them about as much as the Iraqis.

I also claim the moral high ground, because my granddad was a Scot, so I read Oor Wullie when I was a kid and supported Scotland in the football, it was only upon reaching adulthood and seeing that the Scots actively encourage hatred for their neighbours that I decided to play them at their own game and repay the hatred in kind. The English simply do not reciprocate the hatred and breed it into their kids the way that the Scots do, and too a much lesser extent the Welsh and the Irish. But the Scots take the biscuit, I think the Irish are positively over friendly in comparison!

I mean, I suppose I can understand it with the history, but feth me.. its been literally hundreds of years since a war! I know its pretty childish, but I'm not Jesus, I'm not strong enough to turn the other cheek.. hatred raises my morale!

What's your basis for this hatred of the English? The Scots are still outright opposed to independance. Furthermore all Scottish people I've met have been civilised and decent people. The Scots in general have a reputation for being polite.

Joey wrote:What's your basis for this hatred of the English? The Scots are still outright opposed to independance. Furthermore all Scottish people I've met have been civilised and decent people. The Scots in general have a reputation for being polite.

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If we want an English example; what about London? Something like 80% of Britain's GDP is made there... there's an argument that they might want to secede for their own benefit... And, to be honest, it could be argued that many groups are 'dead weight'.

Why should the English pay to subsidise, say, the Welsh? All that ties us together is a shared flag; it's much like richer Eurozone countries bailing out Greece and the like; raises a right hoo-hah.

mattyrm wrote: I have plenty of Scottish mates as they make up about 5% of the RM, but if we are ignoring individuals and drawing blanket statements about nations as a whole, then I dislike the Scots, and I think that the English have got so tired of the unending hatred and bigotry on the part of the Scots that if they did leave nobody would give two feths.

I don't know a single person who cares, and after being based up in Scotland and seeing that a sizeable percentage of them raise their children to hate, frankly I like them about as much as the Iraqis.

I also claim the moral high ground, because my granddad was a Scot, so I read Oor Wullie when I was a kid and supported Scotland in the football, it was only upon reaching adulthood and seeing that the Scots actively encourage hatred for their neighbours that I decided to play them at their own game and repay the hatred in kind. The English simply do not reciprocate the hatred and breed it into their kids the way that the Scots do, and too a much lesser extent the Welsh and the Irish. But the Scots take the biscuit, I think the Irish are positively over friendly in comparison!

I mean, I suppose I can understand it with the history, but feth me.. its been literally hundreds of years since a war! I know its pretty childish, but I'm not Jesus, I'm not strong enough to turn the other cheek.. hatred raises my morale!

I live in Inverness and attitudes towards the English are mostly friendly here, I've encountered anti-English sentiment but it isn't well received. Perhaps it's because there is a good number of English folk living in these parts, or it could be because living conditions in the Highland capital are generally good, less tribalism and small mindedness compared to the sprawl of the central belt.

I for one will be voting no in the referendum. Brits from all the home nations are a different breed from those who lived before the Union, and since then we've been through two world wars together and intermingled. I don't see any point in Scotland turning back the clock - it's just swapping a British union for a European one where we will have even less say in things; I want my nation to move forward with our neighbors. I can understand why the English would want rid of us - it's just a shame that the noisy bigots here are noticed over the decent folk who don't hate others because they were born south of a line on a map.

Henners91 wrote:

Joey wrote:What's your basis for this hatred of the English? The Scots are still outright opposed to independance. Furthermore all Scottish people I've met have been civilised and decent people. The Scots in general have a reputation for being polite.

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If we want an English example; what about London? Something like 80% of Britain's GDP is made there

More like a quarter but do go on

Henners91 wrote:.... there's an argument that they might want to secede for their own benefit... And, to be honest, it could be argued that many groups are 'dead weight'.

More like the rest of England is a city state of London. We have to have the same rules for Canary Wharf as we do for gakky ex-mining towns like where I live. It's no surprise that the government favours London more than the rest of the country given how economically productive it is.

Henners91 wrote:
Why should the English pay to subsidise, say, the Welsh? All that ties us together is a shared flag; it's much like richer Eurozone countries bailing out Greece and the like; raises a right hoo-hah.

Welsh coal built a lot of English industry in the 19th Century just FYI.
If Wales is "subsidised" then it's not by much. But any area of the country that's not London is "subsidised" so it's a pretty silly thing to say.

deathholydeath wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I think the real question is, If Scotland breaks off will they attempt to physically sever Scotland from England to create a new island?

And what will England do without Bagpipes?

Cry. For about two seconds. Then they'll shrug it off with a stiff upper lip.

Actually, the opposite. I think it's a bloody awful sound, people forget the thing was originally made as a weapon of war..

Regarding Scotland, if they do separate there is talk about them forming closer ties with parts of Scandinavia (at least economically). TBH they would need to do something, because the vast majority of the GDP in the UK comes from South of the border.

hotsauceman1 wrote:What aabout Kilts?

We'll be taking thoase back. They're an English invention.

Texas joined the Union on the caveat that the decision was reversible. If the state assembly votes to leave the US the Consitution for the State of Texas will allow secession.

Orlanth wrote:Texas joined the Union on the caveat that the decision was reversible. If the state assembly votes to leave the US the Constitution for the State of Texas will allow secession.

It's Texas, they have no need to leave in any foreseeable future...

For the US the south supposedly thought this from the Declaration of Independence... " That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government," as states rights were under attack (for good or bad). The South wanted independence - the north imposed their will and subjugated the rebel states back to the Union.

Technically I guess you could still make the case that the US govt now is becoming destructive to our life, liberty and pursuit of happiness in more than one way.

While it may not be "legal" for a state to leave the USA. If you are leaving, who cares about the laws of the place you want no part of?

On the other hand, I think there needs to be a mechanism for throwing states out of the Union.

Orlanth wrote:Texas joined the Union on the caveat that the decision was reversible. If the state assembly votes to leave the US the Consitution for the State of Texas will allow secession.

This is an urban legend that is repeated even by those that truly should know better.



No, I'm serious. You may read about it here or here.


So, to answer the OP: No, the US constitution does not allow secession, and no, the US Constitution should not allow secession.

Ouze wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Texas joined the Union on the caveat that the decision was reversible. If the state assembly votes to leave the US the Consitution for the State of Texas will allow secession.

This is an urban legend that is repeated even by those that truly should know better.



No, I'm serious. You may read about it here or here.


So, to answer the OP: No, the US constitution does not allow secession, and no, the US Constitution should not allow secession.

No, its not actually. WE also had the option originally of splitting into five states. The original Republic was larger than curren texas and incorporated parts of current New Mexico as well.