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Bobthehero wrote:Was playing Republic Commando the other day, so here goes.

Clone Commando

4 man squad, can be bumped to 8 men.

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv

4 4 3 3 1 3 2 7 4+ 5++ (Shields)

Wargear: DC 17 Interchangeable Blaster, Dc 15 pistol, wrist mounted punch blade, Katarn class armor, bacta, low light visor

DC 17 Blaster Str 5 4 24'' Rapid Fire 2

Once per game can use the AT grenade launcher, with the following profile:

Str 8 AP 1 range 6''

Twice per game can use the sniper mode of their blaster, using the following profile:

Str 6 AP 3 range 72''

Rules: Feel no pain, granted by the bacta.

Ignore view obscuring rules thanks to their low light visors.



Whaddya think?

I wouldn't put them at WS4. WS3 maybe since they receive significantly more training in melee than your average trooper, but the things you punch to death with the vibro-knuckles tend to not have any melee equipment at all. I doubt they'd be as skilled as a space marine in that theatre. Also, it'd be better to use the existing sniper rifle rules, as the rules you're using would mean that their gun has double the range of pretty much every other sniper around, including the vindicaire Exitus rifle. And the DC-17 definitely does not have more stopping power than a bolter. I'd give it the old hellgun stats but that would be *exceedingly* generous.

An S3 AP6 Assault 3 weapon would be more fitting. The DC-17 is a carbine, it explicitly has less power, range, and ammo than the much larger DC-15 (which is INCREDIBLY long for a standard infantry rifle by modern standards.) The DC-17 is a commando's weapon, small, portable, easy to manoeuvred and has enough versatility to deal with most targets, in an infiltration mission or any other task where I could expect to be in a lot of close ranged firefights in cramped quarters, I'd pick the DC-17. But in an open battlefield, the DC-15 is far, far better with it's much greater range and firepower.

And honestly, can you say a weapon that takes multiple hits to down a battle droid, a strong contender for the most fragile fighter in all of star wars, is stronger than a 0.75 caliber rocket that in the fluff is repeatedly mentioned as blowing apart torsos or even entire upper bodies? That's crazy talk.

I see at gameplay over fluffiness, there's absolutely no reason to give your elite trooper a carbine that can't blast out a combat droid in 1 shot.

Bobthehero wrote:I see at gameplay over fluffiness, there's absolutely no reason to give your elite trooper a carbine that can't blast out a combat droid in 1 shot.

It's still ridiculous to give them a weapon with the stopping power of a heavy bolter and pulse rifle with the possibility of firing more shots than the former.

True true...

I'll switch the weapons around, however after seeing the squad take out Trandoshians berzerkers in melee, I am sticking with WS 4

A DC Blaster has a ridiculous range of something like 8km ;P

Henners91 wrote:A DC Blaster has a ridiculous range of something like 8km ;P

That's the ridiculously long DC-15, the DC-17 is a much smaller carbine. The DC-15 would probably be the absolute worst rifle in all of star wars to bring to a city fight because it's so fracking long for an assault rifle.

Bobthehero wrote:True true...

I'll switch the weapons around, however after seeing the squad take out Trandoshians berzerkers in melee, I am sticking with WS 4

I really have to go against WS 4, yes they may be good, but even Imperial (warhammer not star wars) storm troopers and IG veterans only have WS 3 (TBH STs should have WS 4), and the former are the best in the imperium, while the latter have survived years, maybe even decades of war.

DC-15 do have a long range, and as they are standard troop choices, should i make them long range? i was thinking something like this

S/3 AP/4 Range: 32"

I would then put the clones WS down to three, but i really like the idea that clones are a mix between SM and IG, with BS 4 and I 4, and a 5+ SV with T/3 and S/3. plus, they rarely miss. Also, i was thinking Jedi knights to be really powerful with their force abilities and can block attacks and deflect them to other units ( like those shields the necron elites have). I want a really diverse, fun to play army. Since, after all this is to introduce my 8 year old (soon to be 9 year old) brother to the game.

Also a page from the codex, (I don't own anything, full credit to wookiepedia for pics and text)

DAWARBOSS wrote:DC-15 do have a long range, and as they are standard troop choices, should i make them long range? i was thinking something like this

S/3 AP/4 Range: 32"

I would then put the clones WS down to three, but i really like the idea that clones are a mix between SM and IG, with BS 4 and I 4, and a 5+ SV with T/3 and S/3. plus, they rarely miss. Also, i was thinking Jedi knights to be really powerful with their force abilities and can block attacks and deflect them to other units ( like those shields the necron elites have). I want a really diverse, fun to play army. Since, after all this is to introduce my 8 year old (soon to be 9 year old) brother to the game.

Also a page from the codex, (I don't own anything, full credit to wookiepedia for pics and text)

The Republic probably should play like the Tau with walkers instead of battlesuits with the obvious exception of the Jedi differentiating them from the Tau. The Republic should also likely sit in a comfortable spot between the Tau's mobility and precision, and the IG's slow but steady sledgehammer. They definitely should get their faces wrecked if they try to engage in an all out contest of firepower with the IG or in maneuver warfare with the Tau (I'm using the IG and the Tau as they're the most diametrically opposed shooty armies, one being the Hammer and the other being the Sword, at least in theme) but should wreck face if they make use of the fact that they're better at the other end of the spectrum, I.E outmaneuvering the I.G or bringing out more mass firepower than the Tau.

The Jedi should give them a good standing in psychic warfare with other factions, but I'd say that the Grey Knights and the Eldar should probably still be better, as very few Jedi have the amount of experience a Grey Knight has, and pretty much none would have the experience of a Farseer or Warlock who's likely to be centuries or millenia old. Also, wookiepedia can give you a massive list of units to stat out for this fandex. Personally though, I'd say that AT-TEs and AT-HEs should be superheavies due to their size. SPHA-Ts also would have no business outside of apocalypse due to their sheer scale.

I can envision LAAT/i gunships as being like valkyries and vendettas, but to compensate for the sheer number of guns they have, they should be rather fragile. While the SPMA (The SPHA series' kid brother) wasn't introduced until the GE took over, if you are willing to look over a bit of fluff you can bring them in so the Clone's have some heavy artillery, though they definitely should not be able to surpass or even equal the imperial guard in that regard.

To get back on WS4, all Krieg troopers, even the regulars, have WS4, granted that's their specialty, but in the books one Commando breaks the arm of his training sargeant, during training, gives you an idea of what they can do, fully trained and actually fighting.

Em...as a fan of the Star Wars universe, I must say, I find Jedi Knights to be substantially good enough for HQ status, and Jedi Masters worthy of rules that would put them in the 250 pnt range.
I honestly stand by the belief that five Jedi Masters can take on a small army of whatever the 40k verse has to throw at them at the same point level.
Even though you could only field two as per HQ rules.
So, without giving any details, I think they are underpowered.
Please remember that Jedi Master is a term that is rarely handed out no matter how often people are called 'Master' in the cartoon/TV show. That is simply a name of affection. The great Obi-Wan, my personal favorite, is only a Knight during the Clone Wars.
Of course he's a special case, but the council, those guys, and very few others, are masters.
The ones not on the council, who are Masters, are old and usually pass because their age has slowed them or their wounds are many.
A Jedi also has a much longer life span than an average human. Which is only further expanded depending on the race of the Jedi.
At T 3 and a 4+ invulnerable save, you would see the entire fluff of a Jedi Master be completely destroyed in the 40k universe.
Yes, a Jedi Master should be on par with the Eldar, even though there is an age difference, because like warfare, the skills of the Jedi are passed down from master to padawan, and the new leigion of Jedi is always grasping and mastering the powers of their masters at a much younger age.
Meaning that each new set of 'Masters' would be more prominent with the force than the last, until that is, Darth Sidius went and showed them all what a powerful, clever, and patient Sith Lord can do to an entire galaxy.
Also, from whence they are Padawans, they are not merely training, they are going on missions. Missions to several different worlds in a massive Verse. Fighting several different monstrous creatures and villains. Facing peril from tons of different technology and fighting styles as well as variations of their own techniques and ways.
A Jedi endures more trials and unique battles in a lifetime than any 40k inhabitant. They do not have a rest period either, there is no vacation. There is meditation, training, and constant missions, even when there is no war.
Masters are constant instructors when not needed in the field and as an instructor myself I can assure you it is just as grueling as training and you work harder than the trainee often because whilst they may have one lesson you have several.
So, confused as to how the fact a Jedi can destroy tanks and take on armadas single-handedly, or for that matter kill a rankor, (how is that spelled.) I posted this. Hope it's not to rant-full.
*inserts apologies if this came off as more than me being very partial to Jedi's*

I'm thinking of making force powers not psycic, the jedi do not call upon thew warp to help them, and the attacks never fail. *Runna, thinking of making them more powerfull, but i want to leave some gaps were i can make more powerful jedi characters (Yoda, Obi-wan, Anikan)

Runna wrote:Em...as a fan of the Star Wars universe, I must say, I find Jedi Knights to be substantially good enough for HQ status, and Jedi Masters worthy of rules that would put them in the 250 pnt range.
I honestly stand by the belief that five Jedi Masters can take on a small army of whatever the 40k verse has to throw at them at the same point level.
Even though you could only field two as per HQ rules.
So, without giving any details, I think they are underpowered.
Please remember that Jedi Master is a term that is rarely handed out no matter how often people are called 'Master' in the cartoon/TV show. That is simply a name of affection. The great Obi-Wan, my personal favorite, is only a Knight during the Clone Wars.
Of course he's a special case, but the council, those guys, and very few others, are masters.
The ones not on the council, who are Masters, are old and usually pass because their age has slowed them or their wounds are many.
A Jedi also has a much longer life span than an average human. Which is only further expanded depending on the race of the Jedi.
At T 3 and a 4+ invulnerable save, you would see the entire fluff of a Jedi Master be completely destroyed in the 40k universe.
Yes, a Jedi Master should be on par with the Eldar, even though there is an age difference, because like warfare, the skills of the Jedi are passed down from master to padawan, and the new leigion of Jedi is always grasping and mastering the powers of their masters at a much younger age.
Meaning that each new set of 'Masters' would be more prominent with the force than the last, until that is, Darth Sidius went and showed them all what a powerful, clever, and patient Sith Lord can do to an entire galaxy.
Also, from whence they are Padawans, they are not merely training, they are going on missions. Missions to several different worlds in a massive Verse. Fighting several different monstrous creatures and villains. Facing peril from tons of different technology and fighting styles as well as variations of their own techniques and ways.
A Jedi endures more trials and unique battles in a lifetime than any 40k inhabitant. They do not have a rest period either, there is no vacation. There is meditation, training, and constant missions, even when there is no war.
Masters are constant instructors when not needed in the field and as an instructor myself I can assure you it is just as grueling as training and you work harder than the trainee often because whilst they may have one lesson you have several.
So, confused as to how the fact a Jedi can destroy tanks and take on armadas single-handedly, or for that matter kill a rankor, (how is that spelled.) I posted this. Hope it's not to rant-full.
*inserts apologies if this came off as more than me being very partial to Jedi's*

Most Jedi are not anywhere close to an Alpha level psyker, who can break cities with their minds. Indeed, if they were all that powerful they wouldn't need lightsabers. And against someone like Abaddon or the Swarmlord, a C'tan Shard, Draigo, Skarbrand, Gazghkull, or Eldrad most Jedi would get slaughtered. Hell, General Grievous slaughtered several Jedi masters without any fancy powers, just better reflexes, fighting skills, and a tireless mechanical body.

Also, a single space marine with a power sword is probably going to be faster, stronger, more pain resistant, and more willing to kill than a Jedi Knight. A Tyranid warrior with boneswords would overmatch most Jedi in lethality and speed, with two it'd be easy as "Parry lightsaber and hold it down with one psychic bonesword, slice him apart with the other." I would rate your average no name Jedi master at about a Librarian's level. Also, a human Jedi master who lived for two or three centuries was incredibly decrepit and haggard, to a space marine, two or three centuries is average, and almost all of that will be spent fighting. An Eldar or Chaos space marine would consider two or three centuries chump change.

And in a match up between bloodletters and Jedi Knights, I'm not betting on the Jedi. The Bloodletter swords can parry the lightsabres as both would work like power weapons, and the Bloodletter's mere presence would devastate the Jedi's mind, they've never experienced something as reality breaking as Daemons. And of course, bloodletters are enormously strong and impossibly savage, feral, fast, and bloodthirsty but match that with matchless martial skill.

As for Jedi not having to worry about Perils of the Warp, that'd be a bit unbalanced if there wasn't some drawback. Psychic powers are some of the most powerful things an infantry model can throw out, so they're balanced by the chance of heads exploding. I'd say that in the 40k galaxy, Daemons and the likes could attack force users just as how they can attack psykers. If anything, a Jedi's lack of training to deal with something as openly malevolent and tangilable as a daemon would make them *more* vulnerable.

I would very much like a finished codex if you could make it public.


HQ

Rex 190
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 5 4 3 2 5 4 10 3+

Special Rules
Charge-For one assualt all units in the squad get 1d6 more attacks

Gear

Phase II armor
Thermal Detonators, CC S8 AP 2
Bacta-All units in 12" gain +2 toughness for two turns
Dual Pistols-S3 AP 6 12" range
CC Power knife- S6 AP 4 as long as one or more wound is delt with this weapon the unit must take a leadership at -2

Make Captain Fordo and the Muunilist 10 from the Clone wars miniseries. Those guys were badass.

DAWARBOSS wrote:I'm thinking of making force powers not psycic, the jedi do not call upon thew warp to help them, and the attacks never fail. *Runna, thinking of making them more powerfull, but i want to leave some gaps were i can make more powerful jedi characters (Yoda, Obi-wan, Anikan)

Nids don't use the warp either. Their psychic powers is due to being in close contact (synaptically speaking) with the Hive Mind. Should we change the Nid codex so their psychic powers are no longer psychic? Think of a jedi failing a perils of the warp as using the force to exert himself beyond what his body can actually handle.

Bobthehero wrote:To get back on WS4, all Krieg troopers, even the regulars, have WS4.

Krieg is weird nuff said.

Also, you thinking of stats and stuff for special characters? Perhaps a few well known Jedi at the time (Mace Windu, Yoda, Obi Wan), some respectable clone commanders (Commander Cody), perhaps and ARC trooper or commando leader (Captain Fordo was a badass in the first animated series).

I remember a something like this but it was "Star war vs warhammer 40" and we learned that with logic 40k wins but fanboys never give up so keep things reasonable like BS 3 ect....

BS 3? They're elite troopers for feth sake -.- and they fight pretty darn well in melee as well.

Kain wrote:

Spoiler:

Runna wrote:Em...as a fan of the Star Wars universe, I must say, I find Jedi Knights to be substantially good enough for HQ status, and Jedi Masters worthy of rules that would put them in the 250 pnt range.
I honestly stand by the belief that five Jedi Masters can take on a small army of whatever the 40k verse has to throw at them at the same point level.
Even though you could only field two as per HQ rules.
So, without giving any details, I think they are underpowered.
Please remember that Jedi Master is a term that is rarely handed out no matter how often people are called 'Master' in the cartoon/TV show. That is simply a name of affection. The great Obi-Wan, my personal favorite, is only a Knight during the Clone Wars.
Of course he's a special case, but the council, those guys, and very few others, are masters.
The ones not on the council, who are Masters, are old and usually pass because their age has slowed them or their wounds are many.
A Jedi also has a much longer life span than an average human. Which is only further expanded depending on the race of the Jedi.
At T 3 and a 4+ invulnerable save, you would see the entire fluff of a Jedi Master be completely destroyed in the 40k universe.
Yes, a Jedi Master should be on par with the Eldar, even though there is an age difference, because like warfare, the skills of the Jedi are passed down from master to padawan, and the new leigion of Jedi is always grasping and mastering the powers of their masters at a much younger age.
Meaning that each new set of 'Masters' would be more prominent with the force than the last, until that is, Darth Sidius went and showed them all what a powerful, clever, and patient Sith Lord can do to an entire galaxy.
Also, from whence they are Padawans, they are not merely training, they are going on missions. Missions to several different worlds in a massive Verse. Fighting several different monstrous creatures and villains. Facing peril from tons of different technology and fighting styles as well as variations of their own techniques and ways.
A Jedi endures more trials and unique battles in a lifetime than any 40k inhabitant. They do not have a rest period either, there is no vacation. There is meditation, training, and constant missions, even when there is no war.
Masters are constant instructors when not needed in the field and as an instructor myself I can assure you it is just as grueling as training and you work harder than the trainee often because whilst they may have one lesson you have several.
So, confused as to how the fact a Jedi can destroy tanks and take on armadas single-handedly, or for that matter kill a rankor, (how is that spelled.) I posted this. Hope it's not to rant-full.
*inserts apologies if this came off as more than me being very partial to Jedi's*

Most Jedi are not anywhere close to an Alpha level psyker, who can break cities with their minds. Indeed, if they were all that powerful they wouldn't need lightsabers. And against someone like Abaddon or the Swarmlord, a C'tan Shard, Draigo, Skarbrand, Gazghkull, or Eldrad most Jedi would get slaughtered. Hell, General Grievous slaughtered several Jedi masters without any fancy powers, just better reflexes, fighting skills, and a tireless mechanical body.

Also, a single space marine with a power sword is probably going to be faster, stronger, more pain resistant, and more willing to kill than a Jedi Knight. A Tyranid warrior with boneswords would overmatch most Jedi in lethality and speed, with two it'd be easy as "Parry lightsaber and hold it down with one psychic bonesword, slice him apart with the other." I would rate your average no name Jedi master at about a Librarian's level. Also, a human Jedi master who lived for two or three centuries was incredibly decrepit and haggard, to a space marine, two or three centuries is average, and almost all of that will be spent fighting. An Eldar or Chaos space marine would consider two or three centuries chump change.

And in a match up between bloodletters and Jedi Knights, I'm not betting on the Jedi. The Bloodletter swords can parry the lightsabres as both would work like power weapons, and the Bloodletter's mere presence would devastate the Jedi's mind, they've never experienced something as reality breaking as Daemons. And of course, bloodletters are enormously strong and impossibly savage, feral, fast, and bloodthirsty but match that with matchless martial skill.

As for Jedi not having to worry about Perils of the Warp, that'd be a bit unbalanced if there wasn't some drawback. Psychic powers are some of the most powerful things an infantry model can throw out, so they're balanced by the chance of heads exploding. I'd say that in the 40k galaxy, Daemons and the likes could attack force users just as how they can attack psykers. If anything, a Jedi's lack of training to deal with something as openly malevolent and tangilable as a daemon would make them *more* vulnerable.

To be fair, as it is fiction, it falls under opinion of detail and description of context. Your naming of special characters is unfair, I love orks, I like Ghaz, I think Yoda would kill him, though it would take a long time and Ghaz may win if he can fight off the several wounds he would recieve long enough to ware down the liitle green master. There are Jedi with the power to acces Battle meditation, (as per KOTOR). Which inspires strength, morale, and a clearer sense of battle to their entire armada. That is an insanely high army-wide boost that you may want to take into account as far as what they are capable of with force powers beyond just attacks.
I pit a Librarian on par with Jed Knights. Personal opinion and deciphiring of the level of threats from the given text in each written story and Universe.
A daemon is taken more seriously of a threat by you than a sith lord, I can see why...but I disagree, I see much similarity as far as a threat is concerned. So if a sith lord can kill a Jedi Master, I would say a Daemon Prince should be able to kill a Jedi Master.
Special characters you listed being able to go toe to toe with Jedi masters? Yes, again, I agree. Even slay them.
Would your average HQ in a faction be able to kill a Jedi Master, I don't agree. Would they be able to take on a Jedi Knight, yes.
General Grievous had four mechanical, highpowered, able to rip thick steel doors open; arms. He was a master warrior who was trained to resist the force and also trained by a sith lord long after he had taken up, (which would require an incredible amount of pain tolerence,) his cybornetic body and though he is portrayed lightly in the current series he is one of the most deadly warriors in a galaxy that has been in and out of war for millenia. So, if he can kill a Jedi Master, which he, again, has never done fairly, (Though Ghaz probably could kill him...) I imagine it is possible by some of the more older and veteran warriors of the 40k Verse as well.
As far as Space Marines are concerned, stronger, yes, more pain resistant?? Why? Because Jedi aren't put through living hell in real time scenario's since they are padawan's, (pre-teens). There are not a lot of Padawans that even survive to become Knights which is hardly touched in the shows or even on wikipedia, nor many Knights who survive to be Masters but with a few exceptions. (If you say because of drugs or the 'special' way they are raised I must humbly agree under that circumstance, yet point to there T 4 and say Jedi are respectively T 3 except for special characters.) But they are not faster, Jedi don't need to acces the force unless they are pushing it out as an assault. When utilizing the force in their own body, it is done without need for meditation or hesitation. Jedi speed and their leaps come as instantly and as freely as swinging a sword. As could a powerful swing when they need to fight creatures larger than them with their ligthsabers. (Without the saber they would have plenty of problems. Few exceptions, I admit this.)
As far as more ready to kill, it would be ahrd to press against this subject. But in battle, Jedi do not hesitate to kill, as it is known. They only focus on the outcome of it, and their troops, and victory. In the terms of not killing, a Jedi is only against striking down an unarmed individual. In battle, there is nor has there ever been hesitation on their part.
As far as reality-breaking is concerned, a Jedi would not be a Jedi if they did not have an unbreakable resolve, they would become Sith. So no, no reality-breaking event should move them, if you are familiar with what it takes to be considered a Master, you would have to remember that it is not just a principal they follow but one they must adhere to or they become strayed from the force and usually (with exceptions) become Sith.
Powerful HQ's and named characters, yes, they are on par with Masters and in cases greater than Masters.
Troops, Elites, even common MC's, a Jedi Master should be able to cut down.
Then again, it is really just the way one views the text, the level of threat detailed in each Universe, the level of training and the belief of which training is more severe and results in the better warrior.
I feel in this sense we are on opposite ends in most cases...
I can meet you in the middle on this subject, but I cannot come all the way over.
There have been Jedi strong enough with the force to rip a star ship from the sky. I do not believe a Jedi Master is merely able to do that, no, and nor would I say every Eldar psyker that walks on the board can level a city.
As far as bloodletters go, I say it would be an interesting fight to watch, and we'd obviously have our money on different players in the match.

Happyjew wrote:

DAWARBOSS wrote:I'm thinking of making force powers not psycic, the jedi do not call upon thew warp to help them, and the attacks never fail. *Runna, thinking of making them more powerfull, but i want to leave some gaps were i can make more powerful jedi characters (Yoda, Obi-wan, Anikan)

Nids don't use the warp either. Their psychic powers is due to being in close contact (synaptically speaking) with the Hive Mind. Should we change the Nid codex so their psychic powers are no longer psychic? Think of a jedi failing a perils of the warp as using the force to exert himself beyond what his body can actually handle.

Urgh, this is a personal pet peeve of mine. The Tyranids do draw from the warp, but it's indirect. Think of the warp as the Internet, most of the others would access it normally through an ISP (in this analogy a psyker), with perils being viruses and psychic protection gear being security programs. The Tyranid hive mind would be a gigantic gestalt proxy server that still accesses the Internet, but it's users would only get the power after it's passed through this proxy.

Bobthehero wrote:BS 3? They're elite troopers for feth sake -.- and they fight pretty darn well in melee as well.

I think he's referring to basic clone troopers. ARC troopers are noted to be superhuman, being given special enhancements that push them above what normal humans can accomplish. Commandos get similar levels of training to ARC troopers, but lack that abhuman edge (A normal clone trooper would never be able to utilize a quadruple chest strapped quad blaster cannon on foot like that one ARC trooper could). Of course, many of the Imperium's stormtroopers get genetic enhancements that would put them beyond what a normal unaugmented human can do but it's still not a big enough improvement to be represented statwise.

I'd say ARC troopers should get some boosts to represent how they're above normal humans, like fleet of foot for example, as well as being able to use larger weapons without the need for a heavy weapons team like system. ARC troopers would probably get WS4 as they're trained for all forms of combat.

Runna wrote:

To be fair, as it is fiction, it falls under opinion of detail and description of context. Your naming of special characters is unfair, I love orks, I like Ghaz, I think Yoda would kill him, though it would take a long time and Ghaz may win if he can fight off the several wounds he would recieve long enough to ware down the liitle green master. There are Jedi with the power to acces Battle meditation, (as per KOTOR). Which inspires strength, morale, and a clearer sense of battle to their entire armada. That is an insanely high army-wide boost that you may want to take into account as far as what they are capable of with force powers beyond just attacks.

I pit a Librarian on par with Jed Knights. Personal opinion and deciphiring of the level of threats from the given text in each written story and Universe.

A daemon is taken more seriously of a threat by you than a sith lord, I can see why...but I disagree, I see much similarity as far as a threat is concerned. So if a sith lord can kill a Jedi Master, I would say a Daemon Prince should be able to kill a Jedi Master.
Special characters you listed being able to go toe to toe with Jedi masters? Yes, again, I agree. Even slay them.
Would your average HQ in a faction be able to kill a Jedi Master, I don't agree. Would they be able to take on a Jedi Knight, yes.

General Grievous had four mechanical, highpowered, able to rip thick steel doors open; arms. He was a master warrior who was trained to resist the force and also trained by a sith lord long after he had taken up, (which would require an incredible amount of pain tolerence,) his cybornetic body and though he is portrayed lightly in the current series he is one of the most deadly warriors in a galaxy that has been in and out of war for millenia. So, if he can kill a Jedi Master, which he, again, has never done fairly, (Though Ghaz probably could kill him...) I imagine it is possible by some of the more older and veteran warriors of the 40k Verse as well.

As far as Space Marines are concerned, stronger, yes, more pain resistant?? Why? Because Jedi aren't put through living hell in real time scenario's since they are padawan's, (pre-teens). There are not a lot of Padawans that even survive to become Knights which is hardly touched in the shows or even on wikipedia, nor many Knights who survive to be Masters but with a few exceptions. (If you say because of drugs or the 'special' way they are raised I must humbly agree under that circumstance, yet point to there T 4 and say Jedi are respectively T 3 except for special characters.) But they are not faster, Jedi don't need to acces the force unless they are pushing it out as an assault. When utilizing the force in their own body, it is done without need for meditation or hesitation. Jedi speed and their leaps come as instantly and as freely as swinging a sword. As could a powerful swing when they need to fight creatures larger than them with their ligthsabers. (Without the saber they would have plenty of problems. Few exceptions, I admit this.)

As far as more ready to kill, it would be ahrd to press against this subject. But in battle, Jedi do not hesitate to kill, as it is known. They only focus on the outcome of it, and their troops, and victory. In the terms of not killing, a Jedi is only against striking down an unarmed individual. In battle, there is nor has there ever been hesitation on their part.

As far as reality-breaking is concerned, a Jedi would not be a Jedi if they did not have an unbreakable resolve, they would become Sith. So no, no reality-breaking event should move them, if you are familiar with what it takes to be considered a Master, you would have to remember that it is not just a principal they follow but one they must adhere to or they become strayed from the force and usually (with exceptions) become Sith.
Powerful HQ's and named characters, yes, they are on par with Masters and in cases greater than Masters.

Troops, Elites, even common MC's, a Jedi Master should be able to cut down.

Then again, it is really just the way one views the text, the level of threat detailed in each Universe, the level of training and the belief of which training is more severe and results in the better warrior.

I feel in this sense we are on opposite ends in most cases...
I can meet you in the middle on this subject, but I cannot come all the way over.
There have been Jedi strong enough with the force to rip a star ship from the sky. I do not believe a Jedi Master is merely able to do that, no, and nor would I say every Eldar psyker that walks on the board can level a city.
As far as bloodletters go, I say it would be an interesting fight to watch, and we'd obviously have our money on different players in the match.

Without the power armour, a space marine probably would be slower than your average Jedi, but the thing is that it is *powered*, it enhances pretty much all physical characteristics, including speed.

Now on the subject of special characters, the only injuries short of outright death that bother orks are losing limbs or the ability to use them. Injuries that only inflict pain are in fact counterproductive as it's only going to make the Ork angrier. Yoda's small size and the shortness of his lightsaber blade means that he's not going to inflict much more than flesh wounds on the toughest member of a species so resistant to pain that they consider losing an arm more of an inconvenience than a serious threat to it's life.

Such a contest would depend on whether Gazghkull can land a blow, because if he does, Yoda would more or less explode, heck going by Gazghkull's picture, his gun's bore is bigger than yoda's entire body. And if there's any fluff aspect to Gazghkull gaining a ridiculous invulnerable save when he declares his waaagh, he can become virtually power weapon proof, even if only for a while.

Grievous is strong yes, but he'd likely be outmatched by a Necron Overlord with a phase shifter and a warscythe, it'd be stronger than him, it'd simply phase through a good number of it's attacks, and most importantly in the fluff when warscythes clash with power weapons the Warscythe will cut through the power weapon like a power weapon would with a normal blade so Grievous would be killed the moment he tried to parry, the last thing he'd see would be a crackling necrodermis blade cutting through his lightsaber blades and then through him. But to be fair, Necron Overlords and Phaerons are probably the nastiest generic HQs when kitted out with the arguable exceptions of greater daemons.

The rest I can agree with, but people who rip starships out of orbit in star wars are as rare or rarer than alpha and alpha plus level psykers are in warhammer. Probably rarer since virtually every such example of a force user with that level of power is named, has quite a bit of history, and is considered quite special, while there are likely thousands or more alpha and alpha plus psykers. Of course, virtually all of them are completely and utterly insane and/or possessed by Daemons/in cahoots with Chaos/Enslaver fodder.

As for Bloodletters, well, I know one thing, there's going to be a lot more bloodletters than Jedi.

Bobthehero wrote:BS 3? They're elite troopers for feth sake -.- and they fight pretty darn well in melee as well.

Clones aren't that elite, they die (sometimes) to droids that fight by advancing in lines and firing inaccurately and using no cover. Now, commandos and ARC troopers should be BS 4, but clone troopers are (probably) not better shots than Cadians trained from birth. Especially since clones age twice as fast so for a human from birth to service is about 18 years of training, for clones it would just be 9 years.

We should make a Galactic Empire codex and give all clone troopers a special rule "Plot Armour" that makes them fire at BS 1 if they are shooting at a special character that is not in a unit or transport.

DAWARBOSS wrote:

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:I would make the standard trooper BS3. I'm far from a Star Wars guru but I get the impression that the regular troopers aren't as good as that. Plus, making them BS3 would leave the opportunity open for a slightly more advanced unit such as Commandos, etc.

Clone Troopers are elite soldiers, BS4 makes sense.

Also, Jedi Master should be WS6.

Guardsmen are the best soldiers of the PDF, making them the best soldiers from any given world, and they are BS3. Fire warriors are trained from birth, and are BS3. Scout snipers, amazing crack shots, BS3.

Orks are S3, the same as guardmen, despite weighing several hundred pounds each and being 6'6

BS4 is a veteran crisis suit pilot, who's been waging war for more than a decade, and training since infancy, and has a targetting array built into his armour.

They are not BS4.

Nor should jedi knights be WS5, or have two wounds.

Clone troopers are trained from birth, their lives are dedicated to combat, they are clones of one of the most skilled warriors of the galaxy. They have built in targets on their blasters that relay into helmets. I'm probably going to keep them at BS4, but might pull it down to BS3.

Lets crush this shall we.

I say Jedi Masters should be WS6 since they have the force to guide their movements, Knights should be WS5 and Padawans are WS4

Now for the Troopers I say BS3 simply because if you watch ANY Star Wars movies you will notice that there is enough ammo being fired and they are hitting MAYBE 50% of the time.

Hahaha, this is so much fun! I was really hoping to make a battle droid army for my necrons before the new codex came out. It might still be doable, though I'm not sure how many people would be willing to play me!

I think your troopers are a little undercosted, and the light sabers should probably have more scaling effects, like improving an existing invulnerable save. I guess that would make it final that grey knights are space jedi.

Buttons wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:BS 3? They're elite troopers for feth sake -.- and they fight pretty darn well in melee as well.

Clones aren't that elite, they die (sometimes) to droids that fight by advancing in lines and firing inaccurately and using no cover. Now, commandos and ARC troopers should be BS 4, but clone troopers are (probably) not better shots than Cadians trained from birth. Especially since clones age twice as fast so for a human from birth to service is about 18 years of training, for clones it would just be 9 years.

We should make a Galactic Empire codex and give all clone troopers a special rule "Plot Armour" that makes them fire at BS 1 if they are shooting at a special character that is not in a unit or transport.

Was talking about Commandos.

Updated Blasters

Range/32" S/3 AP/4 assault 2, Stun mode

Stun:
The squad can decide to switch the blasters to stun mode, the squad does not have to roll to wound, but for every hit, one model in the squad is reduced to I1 and WS1 in the next assault phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about arc troopers? what stats should be included for them (thinking the same Bs and WS, but slightly stronger due to augmentation, and more powerful weapons and armor, something like this:
Arc:WS/4 BS/5 S/4 T/3 I/4 W/1 (MAYBE 2) A/2 LD/10 SV/4+ (13pts per model)
Commando: WS/4 BS/5 S/3 T/3 I/4 W/1 A/1 LD/10 SV/5+(10pts per model)

(arc troopers and commandos are trained the same way, by jengo fett, but arc troopers are augumented.)

And clone commander (supposed to be a ranged HQ)

Commander: WS/5 BS/6 S/4 T/3 I/5 A/3 LD/10 SV/4+


Also, need point costs for my current rules, if you guys can help.

Force powers so far:

Force Pull & Push
Force Pull and Push was an force power most Jedi had. With it, they could lift objects according to their concentration and move them, hovering the items in any direction.
Force pull/push may be used in the movement phase, Any unit within 10" and line of sight must take a strength test, if failed the unit is either pulled towards the jedi 6" or away 6", jedi cannot stack power.

Mind Trick - 20pts
Mind Tricks refer to a spectrum of Force powers which influenced the thoughts of sentient creatures, most commonly used to coerce into agreement by suggestion through voice manipulation, or to cause one to reveal information. It can also create powerful illusions.
Mind Trick causes any models in base contact with jedi must take a LD test, if failed, they may not make any close combat strikes that turn.

Force Lightning - 15pts
Force lightning is a powerful force ability, it is characterized by leaping bolts of electricity coming from the wielders hands. Force lightning is a Shooting Attack. Range 12” S6 AP5 Assault 2D6.

Alter Environment – 10pts
Alter Environment was a Force power that involved various techniques that allowed the user to manipulate nature, enabling the creation of phenomena such as Force whirlwinds or fog that could be used to attack or to shield the user from opponents. if a unit fires at the Jedi and his squad, the opponents squad has night fighting rules.

Tuaminis - 10pts
Tutaminis was an umbrella title used by the Jedi Order to classifyForce abilities related to energy absorption. Designated as one in a family of Control abilities, tutaminis techniques were taught to Jedi Initiates within the Jedi academy throughout the history of the Order. The Jedi counts as wielding a power fist.

Protection bubble - 25pts
A Protection Bubble was a Force Power, probably related to Force Protection. With this ability, the user could create a defensive sphere around their body. It is described as a shimmering blue globe of energy. The Protection bubble offers a 2+ save to the Jedi using it


Force Speed – 5pts
Force speed, also known as burst of speed or Force sprint, was a core Force power that allowed the user to maintain sprinting speeds for a brief time. Greater aptitude granted greater boosts to speed and/or greater duration. Used at the beginning of your assault phase. The Jedi has Initiative 10 for the duration of that assault phase.

Force Disarm
The Jedi can pull a weapon from the enemies hands with the power of the force. range 24". One non-vehicle enemy unit within line of sight must pass a Strength test or they cannot fire in their next Shooting phase (they may still run if the test is failed).

Force Cloak - 10pts
Force cloak, also known as Force camouflage and Force concealment, was a rarely seen Force talent involving the manipulation of light and sound waves to render a practitioner virtually invisible to the naked eye. The Jedi Has the Stealth Special rule

Saber Throw - 8pts
The Jedi are able to throw their lightsabers great distances, only to return to his hand before he charges into combat. Saber throw is a shooting attack with the profile R:12” S: 6 AP: 1 Assault 1


Thinking of making them not psychic, Jedi knights can choose up to 3, padawans can choose up to 2, and masters can choose up to 4, Jedi knights and padawans can only use one force power per turn, and masters can use up to two.

DAWARBOSS wrote:
Mind Trick causes any models in base contact with jedi must take a LD test, if failed, they may not make any close combat strikes that turn.

That is too much, maybe not let them make any shooting attacks, but no close combat attacks means that you can kill any unit with several crappy hand to hand units. I can see this being used in the worst way, getting a few jedi to spam this against an expensive HQ or something and then charging the expensive HQ with storm troopers while the jedi kill stuff that can fight back.

Buttons wrote:

DAWARBOSS wrote:
Mind Trick causes any models in base contact with jedi must take a LD test, if failed, they may not make any close combat strikes that turn.

That is too much, maybe not let them make any shooting attacks, but no close combat attacks means that you can kill any unit with several crappy hand to hand units. I can see this being used in the worst way, getting a few jedi to spam this against an expensive HQ or something and then charging the expensive HQ with storm troopers while the jedi kill stuff that can fight back.

Maybe, reduced to WS1? Or I1? what do you think

DAWARBOSS wrote:

Buttons wrote:

DAWARBOSS wrote:
Mind Trick causes any models in base contact with jedi must take a LD test, if failed, they may not make any close combat strikes that turn.

That is too much, maybe not let them make any shooting attacks, but no close combat attacks means that you can kill any unit with several crappy hand to hand units. I can see this being used in the worst way, getting a few jedi to spam this against an expensive HQ or something and then charging the expensive HQ with storm troopers while the jedi kill stuff that can fight back.

Maybe, reduced to WS1? Or I1? what do you think

Perhaps WS 1 to show that they aren't really trying as hard or something.

Buttons wrote:

DAWARBOSS wrote:

Buttons wrote:

DAWARBOSS wrote:
Mind Trick causes any models in base contact with jedi must take a LD test, if failed, they may not make any close combat strikes that turn.

That is too much, maybe not let them make any shooting attacks, but no close combat attacks means that you can kill any unit with several crappy hand to hand units. I can see this being used in the worst way, getting a few jedi to spam this against an expensive HQ or something and then charging the expensive HQ with storm troopers while the jedi kill stuff that can fight back.

Maybe, reduced to WS1? Or I1? what do you think

Perhaps WS 1 to show that they aren't really trying as hard or something.

Sounds good, changed the rules