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spyguyyoda wrote:

This is way too rigid. If he then plays 5 points down, you're now changing your agreement in YOUR favor.

Not at all. It's a point LIMIT. You are always free to go under it.

You don't get arrested for driving 5 miles under the speed limit do you? You don't around here. Might get you shot at though.

To give an example, I've been writing lists up tonight for a game at my flgs on saturday. It's a 600 point limit. My current 'ideal' list is 601. I can drop a venom upgrade to bring me to 596, that's no an issue as it's largely useless anyway (chain flails), though i was trying to guage the response of how much difference that 1 point would make - ie,1/10th of a wych. That's like... a foot.

I completely understand the difference as pointed out by Steelmage99 regarding searchlights, though at that point you'd argue that you already have a 600 point list, taking that extra searchlight is illegal as you're not taking it to make up your points allocation, you're taking it for in game advantage.

The difference, in my mind, is that the 1 point in this occurence has come about as part of a desire to get myself closer to where my opponent will be pointswise, and not to add that cheeky little extra and hope that no-one notices.

Hope I'm explaining that well enough

Its so easy to just drop/swap a special or a heavy weapon, or a squad member. There just no reason to ever be over the limit.

AlexHolker wrote:Zero points. If you want a 5 point buffer, just admit up front that you're playing a 1,705 point game.

Then, to trot out the same response I give in these kinds of threads...

So, now you're playing a 1705pt game and your opponent wishes to go 5pts over again, because you agreed to a 5pt leeway remember? So now you're playing 1710pts and so on and so on. Where does it end? It's called a points LIMIT for a reason.

LazzurusMan wrote:If I'm over or an apponent is over, we just add x amount onto our own list.

Usually evens everything out.

My concern with this is it that I feel it is basically saying "I spent a lot of time building a list and either didn't quite do it it right or needed an extra 5 points for some sort of supercool combo I can't live without. So I'll spot you five points, which since you are delaying actually playing the game to spend, will likely be spent non-optimally on something of minimal value. But I got what I want. So there."

Or to equate to the real world, my bank gets real annoyed when I spend more than my limit.

For friendly games 1-3 points over is fine by me. In most cases that is less than the cost of a single core infantry so I don't mind as it isn't an extra model on the table.
At 4 points, your Hero can lose the shield and you will be within points.

At tourneys, it is never ok to be over. If you have to be 5 points under, so be it.

I myself don't write lists that are ever over the amount I'm going for. In some cases this means running odd sizes in units like 11 archers or something where the last model was filler points that couldn't be spent elsewhere without going over.

It's called a limit for a reason, and the same arguments that apply to 'what's the big deal about being just a little bit over?' apply to it being just a little bit under. I'm always at the limit or less, and I prefer my opponents do the same.

If I could quote all the amazing responses I agree with, I'd fill up this entire page.

A limit is a limit, and a hard one at that. Don't put your opponent in an awkward situation by bringing a list over the agreed limit. Drop something to bring it under if you have to, but never go over the limit. Force yourself to build lists that don't go over, not even by 1 point. I'd much rather show up with a 1495pts list than a 1505pts list in a 1500pts game.

For games with your bestest of best friends in a beerhammer match, sure, go nuts. But in nearly every other conceivable game scenario, be the good guy and don't break the limit.

I wouldnt worry about it.

Personally I would let my opponents go over or under the points limit by a few hundred points if they were fun to play against.

People who take 40K so seriously that they worry about 15 points over are the kinds of people I generally would avoid playing with. 40K simply is not that good of a game mechanically to get wound up about.

[edit] and judging by the responses I am reading in this thread, I am reminded of exactly why I no longer play 40K. For game where grown men push dollies around a playground and in scary dollie houses, those very same people take it just waaaaay to seriously to glean any fun from the game.

You know how GW designers make the points for units? If you guessed some magical rubric, then you guessed wrong.

They have admitted numerous times that the points "that feel right" are given to units.

Of course in tournaments you want to remain at or under the point spread, but playing this game in tournaments is a whole other topic of discussion I wont go into.

Hellfury wrote:[edit] and judging by the responses I am reading in this thread, I am reminded of exactly why I no longer play 40K. For game where grown men push dollies around a playground and in scary dollie houses, those very same people take it just waaaaay to seriously to glean any fun from the game.

Which comes back to the same argument that gets presented every time this comes up: If the points matter so little, why is it such a big deal to just drop those extra points?

The state of the game and it's lack of overall balance is ultimately completely secondary to the issue. If you agree to play a game at a certain points limit, then that is the points limit for that game.

That's got nothing to do with 'taking the game too seriously'... it's to do with playing the game you agreed to play.


We play SkipBo a lot at home. We don't take it seriously... We make up house rules, we spend a lot of time laughing about it all... but we would still object if someone just randomly decided that they were entitled to draw an extra card. However players decide to alter the game to suit themselves, and however well-written (or not) the game is, everybody has to be playing by the same rules.

Last time I went over the point limit, I was 13. I haven't since. No list is impossible to get it under. If you've gotta make sacrifices to get that 1-2 points to go away, then do it. Your opponent most likely had to do the same thing himself.

I personally don't mind up to 5 points over the limit. We're a friendly group and I'd rather my friends get the chance to test out their list ideas without sweating every single point.

During tournaments, of course, the limit is ironclad.

During tournies, no points over; if you're over, I call the judge and suggest that *I* decide what you lose to get under the legal limit. During friendly games, I don't mind as long as its within 1% (so 20pts in a 2000pt game) as long as the opponent tells me. Half the time I'll won't change anything, half the time I'll just add an extra Meltabomb to my HQs to make up some of the difference.

Part of the game is building the list. Sure, everyone would like to take everything they want. But most games are about making the players make interesting (~challenging) decisions.

It's easier to write a haiku if you give yourself some extra syllables to play with... Or a poem if you didn't have to worry about rhyme or meter. But then, you're really taking a cop out rather than embracing the challenge.

You want that "x" which'll put you five points over? Figure out how to make it fit.

All that said, I probably wouldn't say "no" to a game if someone is over, but I'd never do it in one of my lists and I'd be asking myself if someone who's "willingly" over is someone I want to play against again. They may be and that certainly wouldn't be the deciding factor, but for me that'd be a mental strike against.

Valete,

JohnS

If my opponent is over by more than 2 points, I try to squeeze something in my list to make it even.

You've agreed to a certain point limit and you're over points. What are you supposed to do?

It's quite simple. You either talk to the other person and say, "Is it okay to play at X points instead?" or you make a different list.

If you agreed to play at 2000 points, why is 2000 magically important compared to 2003 or 2005 or 2010 points? The exact point limit is a magical number because it is the number of points that you agreed to. And it remains a magically important number until you agree to change it.

Eh, if it is a 2000 point game I give a 5 point leeway. If you are 5 points over I won't say anything, if you are five points under, I won't gripe.

any more points over or under and I will issue concern.

I don't need to cheat to win, and I won't tolerate
my self or anybody else having an unfair advantage.

Grimtuff wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:Zero points. If you want a 5 point buffer, just admit up front that you're playing a 1,705 point game.

Then, to trot out the same response I give in these kinds of threads...

So, now you're playing a 1705pt game and your opponent wishes to go 5pts over again, because you agreed to a 5pt leeway remember? So now you're playing 1710pts and so on and so on. Where does it end? It's called a points LIMIT for a reason.

You misread my post. We're on the same side: I'm saying there should be absolutely no leeway, but that does not require that the hard points limit be a multiple of 100. If you want to play a 1,699 point game, that's your prerogative, but you have to stick to that point limit.

poontangler wrote:any more points over or under and I will issue concern.

Why is it a concern if they are under...?

Point LIMIT. You go over, you need to rework your list.

Now there are exceptions, a friendly game where you might be trying a new army, a point or two is OK. As long as your opponent knows and is given the ability to match with a piece of war gear or something.

insaniak wrote:

poontangler wrote:any more points over or under and I will issue concern.

Why is it a concern if they are under...?

If your opponent is under, it may give you an advantage. Or that's how I read it.

It depends.

Friendly games against folks I've known for years are often opened with 'oh, I'm over by 3 pts' which is expected and never quibbled over.

If I were playing a recent acquaintance or stranger or participating in a tourney, then no points over.

treadhead1944 wrote:If your opponent is under, it may give you an advantage. Or that's how I read it.

That's their problem, really. Unless you're also going to start analysing their army list choices before the game to make sure their list is optimal...

insaniak wrote:

treadhead1944 wrote:If your opponent is under, it may give you an advantage. Or that's how I read it.

That's their problem, really. Unless you're also going to start analysing their army list choices before the game to make sure their list is optimal...

I got nothing.

You question is flawed. It's never acceptable to pass a limit. That's why it's a limit.

IE is it acceptable to catch more fish than your limit or drive past the speed limit?...No.

Why bother setting a limit if you're just going to surpass it?

If it's a really special circumstance like teaching someone to play, or have a sorta scenario event, then that's fine.

Friendly game at the local store? Fine, just re-jig the list afterwards so long as you don't have a cheap upgrade that you can drop to make the points back, such as meltabombs - It's first come, first served for tables, and i'd prefer to get a game in than have to forfeit the table to somebody else and potentially not get a game in at all due to a minor error in calculating.

Friendly Tournament? If you haven't seen my list yet, then drop something. If you have, then i'm going to have to inform the TO (because some people won't be above tailoring by removing an upgrade that's useless against me in favour of something that's useful).

Competative Tournament? Zero-tolerance; I'm going to have to inform the TO - You should've checked it long before you came, and any errors should've been caught if the lists were run past the TO. I didn't just pay through the nose to attend a tournament and potentially be knocked out or beaten out of a placing position by an illegal list.

Avatar 720 wrote: It's first come, first served for tables, and i'd prefer to get a game in than have to forfeit the table to somebody else and potentially not get a game in at all due to a minor error in calculating.

That actually leads to a different issue that's always puzzled me... Most venues have a few 'standard' points values that tend to be played. And yet a surprising number of people will show up to play without a pre-prepared army list.

Boggles the mind. If I'm going to have to sit around for half an hour waiting for you to write your list, I'm just going to go play someone else.

Task and Purpose wrote:You question is flawed. It's never acceptable to pass a limit. That's why it's a limit.

IE is it acceptable to catch more fish than your limit or drive past the speed limit?...No.

Cops usually allow you to go 10 over and wont pull you over, atleast where im from... just saying

Not many people turn up without an army list to our GW nights or the FLGS; in fact, I don't think anyone does. At least, Vet's night at my GW runs a pre-written list policy AFAIK, but points issues could still arise, like someone who created a prototype list in store on that day, but before he opted to play a game; i've certainly had times where i've come to a list I wrote a night or two before and realised that it doesn't add up right when i'm checking it through.