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Diezel wrote:Cops usually allow you to go 10 over and wont pull you over, atleast where im from... just saying

Tht doesn't make it any less illegal to go over

I used to give a 5 point allowance for either side but since getting back in I feel this is unnecessary there should be no points over if I am I can drop a boy from a squad or something along those lines. There is really no reason to be over.

Ummmm... zero.

This isn't like a speed limit sign, where you are given a grace zone for a malfunctioning speedometer. If you are playing 1750, make sure it all adds up. This is a budgeting system, make you army work within its budget...

Quite a lot of great responses here. I'll parrot most users and say that the limit is the limit. You have what is essentially an unlimited amount of time to create your list, so if you decide to go 1 point over, all I see is a lazy player. I won't play against a lazy player.

Sure, if you and your friends decide to have an impromptu game night and you all make lists on the spot, go 5-10 points over. No one likes waiting around so that someone can make the 'perfect' list if all you want to do is have a quick, casual game. The fact is, that in that particular situation you did not come into the game with a list pre-prepared to be 1 point over.

Now in any other situation, why couldn't you just make a list that fit under the limit? Its not hard, everyone else is doing it. What makes you so special that you can come into a store and play with a list (that I mention again, you had ample time to create) that is unlike everyone else's?

We've had some pretty good analogies pop up in this thread, so I'll go ahead and propose another:
Lets say you have a jar and bag of 20 jolly ranchers. You intrust both to your friend. You say, "Hey man, I'm gonna leave this jar with you. I just want you to fill it with exactly 20 jolly ranchers. When I get back, we can split them. All I want you to do is fill the thing. You have a week". You come back a week later, and you find 19 jolly ranchers in the jar. Of course whether or not 1 jolly rancher is missing is no big deal. The big deal is you gave your friend ONE job. One simple job. And he fethed it up. He had a whole week. Its not like filling up the damn jar was rocket science. So why couldn't he complete that one elementary task? It's incompetence. Pure and simple.

And honestly, there's no reason to excuse willful incompetence.

In a tournament i would not say not at all. Otherwise i guess i dont care.

One point is too many.

In a friendly game, I allow others a 5 point gap and myself usually zero points over. Of course, thats a friendly game, with people I enjoy. In serious competition, 0 points over and I allow myself 0 points over.

I disagree with a lot of the statements here. If you haven't got the models to fill out a set amount of points and model/squad X is 5 points too high, but you have them there....Surely thats better than proxying.

It dosent matter if the game is friendly or a tourny or whatever, if you agree to play 2k that means 2000 or less points.

So essentially if you don't have units to make up 2k points you are playing with 100+ points LESS than your opponent, rather than 5 more. I'm not advocating 50 points+, but in a friendly game, I am assuming that if you declared *I am 5 points over* and getting the nod would be alright. Rather than making the game less fun for both your opponent and yourself.

Tournament lists are more competitive and usually nit-picked to the last detail (actually my LOTR force was 10 points under and still won 3rd prize)

Doctadeth wrote: I'm not advocating 50 points+, but in a friendly game, I am assuming that if you declared *I am 5 points over* and getting the nod would be alright.

Everything depends on your reaction if you do not get the nod.

Doctadeth wrote:So essentially if you don't have units to make up 2k points

... don't try to play 2000 point games...

I'm not really seeing a situation where what you are describing would really be an issue though.

Just to put some perspective in place though... objecting to an opponent being 5 points over isn't dow to those 5 points making a big difference to the game. It's simply due to there having to be a limit, or there would be no reason to have points in the first place. And the best place to impose that limit is at the agreed upon limit.

If yoou need 3 points, drop a 5 point option to fit it in.
Or, you could drop a 15 point model from a unit, buy a 12 point model for another unit, and you're good.

There's never a need to buy something that cheap.
Any more than a couple of points needs a rethink.

Doctadeth wrote:So essentially if you don't have units to make up 2k points you are playing with 100+ points LESS than your opponent, rather than 5 more.

That seems unlikely. Most armies can drop a single trooper or piece of wargear to go from a few points over to a few points under.

(actually my LOTR force was 10 points under and still won 3rd prize)

A lot of people seem to think that we oppose being 5 points over because it's a big deal, or because 5 points is a significant part of an army. In fact, it's just the opposite - it's annoying to have your opponent go over the limit simply because it's so petty and unimportant. It's like someone cutting you off in traffic or butting in front of you in a long queue.

As stated before by quite a few posters, 0.

While I can see how a few points might be ok, and with a few of my close friends I would consider it. Over all it keeps me and (hopefully) my opponent honest as well.

The points limit, is the limit in my eyes. If you think that a few points over is not a big deal, then you can play a few points under and its still not a big deal then right?

I have had quite a few tournment experiences where people have showed up with 1852 lists, or 2002, and they couldn't comprehend why opponents were upset. Similarly, in 1 off games if you want to be over points put it out there in the open and allow your opponent to be so also.

However, typically a points limit, is just that, a limit for an agreed upon game. Someone reference the space marine example where if you can have a 10 man squad you get free special weapons options. That's my thoughts as well. I'm sure my Deffkoptas would really like to have free big bombs, but they don't.

njpc wrote:The points limit, is the limit in my eyes. If you think that a few points over is not a big deal, then you can play a few points under and its still not a big deal then right?

I have had quite a few tournment experiences where people have showed up with 1852 lists, or 2002, and they couldn't comprehend why opponents were upset. Similarly, in 1 off games if you want to be over points put it out there in the open and allow your opponent to be so also.

However, typically a points limit, is just that, a limit for an agreed upon game. Someone reference the space marine example where if you can have a 10 man squad you get free special weapons options. That's my thoughts as well. I'm sure my Deffkoptas would really like to have free big bombs, but they don't.

Agreed on all points.

insaniak wrote:We play SkipBo a lot at home. We don't take it seriously... We make up house rules, we spend a lot of time laughing about it all... but we would still object if someone just randomly decided that they were entitled to draw an extra card. However players decide to alter the game to suit themselves, and however well-written (or not) the game is, everybody has to be playing by the same rules.

This is a great way to put it! The 'fun house rules' that everyone agrees on are very different from 'surprise secret rules' than one person decides to isnert... And a sudden change in the point limits is the latter.

In actual play, if someone went over by 2 or 5 or even 10-50 points and asked politely I'd probably say yes as long as it wasn't a tournament-style situation. However, they'd have to ask every time, and I'd have an easy 'out' if they bragged about winning in this situation.


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Cryonicleech wrote:If my opponent is over by more than 2 points, I try to squeeze something in my list to make it even.

Like a Land Raider/Monolith/Titan? I think if someone habitually did this and was annoying about it, that's what I'd do: make sure the only extra model I had with me was something obnoxious and pull that out to even things up.

My goal is to always be within -5 points of he limit, but I will not go over. I will proxy instead if I need to in order to nerf a weapon to meet the points if I need to.

The points limit is the points limit. When list building there's a lot of times when you could take a bit more optimal unit with your last 150-200 points if you simply had 10 points or 5 points extra. You don't so you have to find some other way to design your list. I'm one of the guys who always has to have every army list at exactly 1500 or 1850 or 2000 points so that I feel I've used all my allowance. Some people prefer to take the units they want and if they're 4 or 3 points under they just leave it at that.

I have had quite a few tournment experiences where people have showed up with 1852 lists, or 2002

I don't really care if it's a friendly game or a tournament game if a list is over in points it has to be disqualified and not allowed for play. I don't even understand why anyone would ever want to field a list that is illegal. For example, I don't understand the argument that in friendly games it's not that important. Why would any of my friends want to play with an illegal list? Is this a cultural thing, like in some cultures it's okay to damage your car in traffic just a little bit so it's not that serious and nothing to get upset about? In non-competitive games I would of course allow the opponent to fix his list by removing a gun option or a model from some of his squads so that he's back under. In competitive games if the game was already over I'd ask for an automatic massacre victory from the referees.

At our club the points limit is exactly that.... a limit. Most codex will enable you to tweak your points by one or two points for small items. I developed an excell spreadsheet to calc my lists and allows me to quickly write a list and tweak it to the limit. See attached GK and Ork spreadsheets feel free to use them

I only think you should go over points if you and youre opponent are play testing certain combinations/mechanics. Prevents you from having to play two games to playtest a 5-25pt adjustment, when in honestly the game is just a test bed.

the limit is the limit. But if you do havge to go over let your opponent know so they can match if necessary

I will graciously allow my opponent to be over the points limit by 0.5

I only play friendly games with friends so im easy as long as they tell me first so i can add something to mine as well to adjust accordingly.
If it was competative however i would not allow anything over !

If you look at games such as Reapers' Warlord, you are forced to take a negative impact artifact of -3 pts if you are over the limit. So, there is simply no excuse for any player to go over.

Zero tolarance, even in friendly games, except when it's just to try some specific combo and that just won't work otherwise (though even then there should usually be a way to reduce something else).

The points limit is just that: the limit. It won't be too hard for anyone to come up with a list that fits in it.

kitch102 wrote:I always seem to go just over the points limit whilst list building, sometimes by as little as 5 points, sometimes by as much as 30. I always try to bring it down as much as possible ofcourse, I don't want to be seen as a cheat, though I couldn't help but wonder how much my fellow dakkanauts consider is too much? Has your opponent ever said "I've gone xx points over" and how have you reacted?

Random unknown people? 1 point is too many.

Friends I play with on a consistant basis? As long as they ask, I'll handwave upwards of 10pts. I might even do more, but at that point you can cut a full model out of somewhere.

Polonius wrote:Asking "how many points can I be over my list" is a litlte bit like asking "how much intimate contact counts as infidelity?"

The answer is always "zero, unless you're explicitly allowed more by an individual."

Likewise, saying, "well, you can add a few extra points to your list now" is kind of like telling your girlfriend "well, you can make out with one of my siblings."

This.

If I allow my opponent to go over, it's because I'm in a hurry, and they are very new or very incompetent. The subtext is "This is clearly not a real game, as you have chosen not to follow the rules, but I don't mind giving you an advantage because it's not going to change the end result.'

0 points over is my limit. I work out different combinations in my lists and if I'm 1 point over I recalculate everything. There are enough unit and upgrade choices in every Codex/Army Book to easily make a list at almost any point limit.

Another thing is if my opponent shows up with a list over the point limit, what other rules is he going to break and try to get away with?

"Oh, I'm 6.5" away from your Leman Russ. Can you spot me an extra 0.5" so I can roll 2D6 with my Meltagun for armour penetration?"

"My dice fell on the floor, but I rolled a 5 so I hit with my Power Fist. Look on the floor and see - it's a 5!"

Making an army list is one of the fundamental rules of the game. If you can't make one properly, what other parts of the game won't you be able to do?

Points limits are " as close as you can WITHOUT going over", Price is Right style.