Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Another aspect, is that when you are playing at a higher points level most will assume you've got a basic grasp of the game and will not really treat you like a newb. They see you as fresh meat they can practice on.

Lower point games tend to be both friendlier and faster. You dont get sucked into an hour plus snooze fest when someone hides on the back edge(which as you mentioned is what scenarios are for- but also game clocks totally stop slow playing).

Also- you havent made any mention of your own list/army. And depending on what you were fielding that may have determined how these guys perceived how 'new' they thought you were. Maybe to them you were fielding a super tuned tournament army so they responded in kind.

Unless those are the only 3 guys that play in your area- you need to find some better(more fun) opponents. Track down your local press ganger or see if theres any Journeymen leagues starting up nearby.

The only problems I have run into with these types of people is at tournaments, and then only two total.

The first time it happened was at my first larger tournament: 20-30 players (that's big for me. ) representing every faction. I was playing Cryx, and in my first round hit the only faction I had ZERO experience fighting: Cryx. He deployed in utter silence, keeping earbuds in the entire time while listening to his iPod. He returned only a noncommittal shrug when I wished him good luck, and then played in total silence. I would point to units, list abilities activated, actions taken, and he took it all in with out so much as a nod. I was offended more because his lack of response to any action sucked all the fun out of the game. I'm so used to cheering, shouting, swearing, and gak talking, that his utter lack of communication made it feel like I wasn't even there to him. At the end of the game I managed a tie, then a few minutes later while reviewing the game internally realized where I could have won. He pulled out his ear buds, shook my hand and sighed. "Whew! I didn't think you were going to do that well. That was tough." Weird as it sounds, as back handed of a compliment as it seemed, it actually redeemed the whole game. It made me think he was really just super intense (even if he was being disrespectful) and the fact that he told me the game was tough was enough to at least grudgingly acknowledge that I was capable. (I suppose it didn't hurt that I was running Skarre in a tourney and never jockeyed for the Bomb, but kept using Sac Lamb and other support spells to keep my army going: very atypical for newbie Skarre players)

The second one was a Warmahordes tourney shortly after Kreugar came out. I was playing a guy at another larger event who was bad mouthing everything: dice, the table, his drive, the weather, how broken my list was, how finely I was paying attention to facing. His wife was even there next to him, and as I began my turn I nodded my head and used a line to measure my position to his back arc. I announced a backstrike and he growled "Whatever you gotta do to win, dude." I asked if he wanted to dispute the position, and he just threw his hands up and said "Whatever, just get on with it." The worst part was: he was winning! I was busy trying to keep up and making things very difficult to reach me with the tri-fecta of Gators, Gobbers, and Grinders in a Kreugar list with two WoldWardens. At the end of it I fought him to a stand still, survived an assassination run, was unable to complete my own, and he won by a few points. After it was done he nodded his head as though to confirm his victory, packed up his army and moved to the next table without so much as eye contact.

When I was big into the game playing Warmahordes, I had a policy never to coddle new players. As someone mentioned earlier, casual isn't in the list, it's in the player. When playing a few mates that I got into the game, I played the EXACT SAME LIST every time. I explained what each unit was doing, what special abilities it was using, and before starting a combo, I would annouce I was doing so, combining it with it's well known nick name. "Okay dude, you're in the perfect spot now, I'm going to start the Skarre Bomb.) I would play the same list so I could show them that each list was not one dimensional and that it had alot of things they needed to be wary of. If they blocked one thing, I'd show them how they were open to the next. I would chat with them over After Action Reviews, suggesting ways to avoid or mitigate damage caused by army. When he was used to one thing, I would move on, but usually opponants were getting the gist of things and knew what combos to look out for and how to scan cards quickly for other combos that might crop up letting me vary things more freely. During an AAR I would explain to them why I killed what I did in their list. Was it in the way, was it a threat to me on its own, was it a part of a combo I feared, etc. That way my opponant would know how better to hide those units if he needed to, or which units to use to threaten me with.

Now as far as slow playing, I find myself doing that far more in Warmahordes than in 40k. With all the combos you may have heard about before you got to the table, and all the OTHERS you need to find on the fly when you get there, there's alot to take in offensively and defensively. (He took apart this combo, which tools do I still have to accomplish the win?) The worst part about my slow playing is that I will stand there. And fret. And plot. And double check. And measure CNTRL radius. And calculate. Then measure again. Then plot. And worry. Then I move. "Focus here, focus here, this unit moves, uses its ability. Then I activate my caster and you die." All that sitting and worrying to not only set up a flawless Assassination run, but also to cover my butt if I missed something. And the whole time, the had no way to stop me at all.

Color me sheepish.

For my own part, I have met more people of a color of TFG and WAAC in warmahordes than in any other tabletop game. I have a theory about why this is, and it's not related to pg. 5.
In a nutshell, Warmahordes appeals to card gamers, so you get a lot of cross pollination with people who never learned proper tabletop etiquette. Card games generally are about winning at all costs so, to me, that provides a good reason why those guys show up more in warmahordes.

deathholydeath wrote:For my own part, I have met more people of a color of TFG and WAAC in warmahordes than in any other tabletop game. I have a theory about why this is, and it's not related to pg. 5.
In a nutshell, Warmahordes appeals to card gamers, so you get a lot of cross pollination with people who never learned proper tabletop etiquette. Card games generally are about winning at all costs so, to me, that provides a good reason why those guys show up more in warmahordes.

Sorry, I'm going to have to call complete and utter BS on that bias.

This is what you can do:

Build the dirtiest list you can think of and utterly destroy everything and everyone thus beginning your reign on lonely man mountain.

Accept that there are people of all graces that play the game you do and sure you don't have to associate yourself with them but by all that is glory you have every right to make them wish they never picked up the game, taking their dirty tricks and sundering them into a pile of broken hopes and shattered dreams.

Establish yourself as the 'cool to play guy' where you win some of the time and afterwards talk with the player on things could have been handled better or how to counter something more effectively. How to improve your list building, etc.

Personally, I go with the last one but I make sure my opponents are mewling, crushed men by the end of the game. Speaking from a Skorne point of view and first hand experience

I've seen this thread for every game system

Being a fantasy, 40k, and Hordes player, I can tell you that from my experience it just varies person-to-person, and/or group-to-group.

You might not have hit it off with the particular warmahordes group that you started playing with, or just those individual players, but that means absolutely nothing as far as the larger "trend" goes.

One thing Warmachines and Hordes do have going for them is a tight rules set, making some of the disagreements that break out in these games different than the usual GW ones.

I say make the best of it, and maybe find out those guys aren't deserving of the labels that are getting tossed around in this thread, after all

infinite_array wrote:

deathholydeath wrote:For my own part, I have met more people of a color of TFG and WAAC in warmahordes than in any other tabletop game. I have a theory about why this is, and it's not related to pg. 5.
In a nutshell, Warmahordes appeals to card gamers, so you get a lot of cross pollination with people who never learned proper tabletop etiquette. Card games generally are about winning at all costs so, to me, that provides a good reason why those guys show up more in warmahordes.

Sorry, I'm going to have to call complete and utter BS on that bias.

You are entitled to your misguided opinion.

The only TFG I've met while playing warmachine was someone who played Legion, constantly complained about how Legion wasn't cheesy and how it was actually super weak while complaining about other factions (mostly Khadors pButcher) and when he played games, like to 'cheat' with his movement. I have no idea if it was intentional or not, but he pretty much would go a fair bit beyond what he was supposed to move. Or move his unit back (to a less far away position) and then move again, this time to be closer to another target. He also lost most of his matches despite his cheating -_-

@deathholydeath

got the facts to back up your claim? I dont think infinite_array has the misguided opinion here.

Fact of the matter is WAACs and TFGs are present anywhere in any shape form and size. I've encountered TFGs in the Cross-stitching community for crying out loud.

Which actually brings me to another point:

One has to consider that being new at a game or environment does NOT automatically mean that people will go out of their way to welcome or accomodate you.

It would be nice if they did. But do they have to? NO.

Back in the day I was heavily into Fighting Games and I would frequent the arcades I wasnt really any good but I loved playing. I would often get my ass handed to me and sometimes would not even be given a "mercy" round which was a common practice then.

Did that make the folks I played against WAACs and TFGs?

Some certainly were no doubt. But most were not.

There was no advice or encouragement given. No kind words. They were outright brutal.

They didnt cheat though. They used skill to beat me. There was no trash talking and any helplessness I had at that point could only be chalked up to my inexperience.

It took a while but eventually they guys at the arcade got a lot more familiar with me. I would offer praise and congratulate them on their wins. After one exasperating game I just broke down and exclaimed "How the hell do I win against you?!". One of the guys approached me and started talking to me about cancelling moves...and I got better from there

tl;dr Sometimes we expect for people to adjust to us and if they dont we are quick to call out TFG or WAAC and that ruins the experience for us.

We often talk about being the good player that encourages new players.

we rarely talk about being a good Newbie.

One thing about the "card player" overlap with warmachine- I've noticed that players new to warmachine / used to other wargames might consider "combos" to be WAAC. However, in card gaming I believe combos are extremely common. So, there's a different perception there on what's "OK" to do.

In warmachine, pulling a crazy trick that is legal by the rules but sounds weird is totally, 100% OK. Like shooting your own models, or attempting a failed charge on purpose just to get your control range a bit further out for a crucial charge with a beast... something extremely common, but it sounds out of place. Other wargamers might think this to be pushing the limits of a game, especially if they're new and haven't picked up that it's common in warmachine.

Personally, I like being allowed to "do whatever's legal", as otherwise the "unwritten rules" are too hard to navigate. It's these "unwritten rules", that I've found differ so much from gamer to gamer / group to group, and that makes people who are new to any game / system / group sometimes quickly pull out the WAAC label.

The more experienced the gamer in a certain system and in a certain setting, the less likely they are to apply that label, from what I've seen. This goes for players who are new to tournaments, new to warmachine, new to a gaming group, etc.

So like I said before, give it a bit more of a chance, and maybe you will feel differently . You still might prefer not to play those gamers, but might not consider them "WAAC" after a better sampling.

Bakerofish wrote:@deathholydeath
got the facts to back up your claim? I dont think infinite_array has the misguided opinion here.

My statement was predicated with "For my own part..." meaning it is an opinion born of my own experience. Also note the use of the term "theory." Infinite calls it BS based on nothing but his own opinion, and himself/herself cites no facts or reasons as contrary evidence.
My opinion is based on my experience that around 70% of the warmahordes players I know and have met came to the game from a CCG. Mostly L5R players with a smaller proportion of MTG. Since I can't upload my memories to the interwebs, that'll have to do.
Don't like it? Don't care. That's my experience and my reply to the OP.

@deathholydeath

just commenting on the irony of a guy with a (slightly offensive) theory based on nothing but experience calling someone "misguided" .

cuz you know...

yeah.

Pg 5 kinda got me into the game really, the creators actually encouraging you to go all out but not be a dick about it was a nice change. But then the creators seemed to have forgotten about their own rule when they wrote SR2012, yes I'm in the boat that character restrictions are dumb. Then there are tournament formats that promote being a D-bag like Death clock, yea its a totally brutal tourney and what not but when people just play for time outs its kinda depressing.

Bakerofish wrote:@deathholydeath

just commenting on the irony of a guy with a (slightly offensive) theory based on nothing but experience calling someone "misguided" .

cuz you know...

yeah.

Ah, yes. Heaven forbid someone should ever make a hypothesis based on mere observation. Science would be ruined!

How broad was the selection of gamers you made these observations on? You probably have a good idea of what the players near you are like, but I doubt you've bothered to take in the gaming climate in a wider region -at least not the people who play games you don't seem very interested in. While we are at it, let's not mix anecdotal observations with science.
As I have stated before, every gaming group is different. Your local area might have a rotten bunch of jerks playing warmachine or hordes, but a few towns away they could have some of the nicest guys playing the same games. The guys near you have obviously given you reason to think poorly of them if you are so motivated to come here and vent, but I assure you, there are gamers of all kinds in every game.

I only bought my Warmachine Prime last Friday, to try out something new instead of playing 40k all the time - and when I read Page 5 I thought "Oh yeah baby!", this is my game.

If you play like you've got a pair, ie if you expect your opponent to do his worst and keep in mind that your dice might roll badly the whole game (as in the poker allegory: if you play as though you had a bad hand), and if at the same time you man up (the other interpretation of having a pair) and accept that you will probably lose a lot instead of expecting to win, you will enjoy your game, even if you lose brutally - because you will know you have done your best and you can still enjoy the cineastic/fantastic aspect of the game.

If, however, you expect fair play to mean that your opponent won't exploit your mistakes or your bad luck, or if you expect them to apologize for rolling well on a turn or even a whole game,* or if you base your tactical decisions on the chance of good rolls instead of actually calculating the risks**, you are going to be frustrated more often than not.

Also, it is not gloating to enjoy your victory. If you play like you have got a pair, you will be able to enjoy your opponent's victory, too, because you won't have the feeling of having been robbed of something which you supposedly deserved that is often the reason for feeling bad about a game.

Now nothing of this actually has to do with being TFG. Sometimes, non-competitive players are the TFG because they whine about losing after trying to give their opponent a hard time for exploiting their mistakes and dice. Whether the guys are TFGs has to do with social behaviour, not playstyle of focus.

* Seriously... "Oh, I am so sorry your dice rolls were so bad...." Yeah, sure, I am totally sorry. Wait, no I am not. I am very happy each time my opponent rolls massively bad and/or I roll awesomely well. Because that's part of the fun. If I couldn't rejoice when my underdog unit kills his mainstay by a bunch of good rolls, or if my tactical mistake is made up by the dice, or if everything just simply goes according to plan, I'd play fething chess.

** There are times for taking those risks, and there are times not to. That combined with luck is what makes or breaks a massive victory.

I used to be into chess, so that kind of colors my perspective a bit.

Playing someone better than you and asking for a 'soft' list would be a bit like playing a superior rated chess player and asking they drop a piece. Sure it'll maybe even the playing field but you won't learn nearly as much and afterwards be satisfied as what you would get from playing a real game with decent after-match analysis where the master can explain to you his thought processes and how he countered your attack/ exploited the weaknesses you opened with your moves.

There is no need to be rude, there is no need to be offensive, but tying one arm behind your back isn't really what the game is about.

I like the 'there are no casual lists, only casual opponents' phrase, because it puts it into perspective. Unlike Warhammer which is hard to learn but so so easy to 'master', warmachine has a lot more depth tactically and strategically; the skill ceiling is much higher. Some of my favourite games in any system were ones I've played and lost, but taught me a great tactical or strategical lesson about the game system that will last as long as you play.

I still remember one of my first 40k games where my newbie Necrons got torn to pieces by a tournament Dark Eldar list (4th ed), but my opponent was great, we did some analysis, he showed me some counter strategy for my army, and I never forgot those lessons. Sounds cheesy I know.

My opinion would be that games which are a bit more cerebral actually breed a nicer player overall, because people really get into the depth and are all too happy to share insights and understanding with others. Exceptions abound of course.

If we want to go by pure openion of people in the area.

There are far far more TFG's and asshats in 40k/Fantasy then any game.

You take Warmahordes.. Rules actually state what they mean, no room to try to make it mean something else.

You don't have one group playing it one way, and another playing the other..

The rules are there for a reason, if its clearly written and you can do it its legal, there is no TFG or rules abuse at all.

Rules abuse is in a GW game where its a 20min argument over what grammer they meant to use and what they "Meant" the rule to be compared to what the rules is compared to what this FaQ says compared to what that one guy said on that one forum thought it meant....


If we want to compare players that come from other games

deathholydeath wrote:My opinion is based on my experience that around 70% of the warmahordes players I know and have met came to the game from a CCG.

This is a valid point, as it's from your experience. I don't see any reason this needs to be confrontational.

I've had the exact opposite experience, though. The vast majority (I'd say at least 80%, with most of the 20% being players whose background I'm just not aware of, so it could be even higher) of Warmachine / Hordes players here are converts from other miniatures games... a la 40k/fantasy

And I'm one of them

Well, here is an important question: what do you mean by WAAC? Win at All Costs?

If by WAAC, you mean the guy who brings his A-game, plays clean but fair, but brings a powerful list with strong combinations and uses his encyclopedic knowledge of the rules and various armies to win games as efficiently and quickly as possible, I've got no problem with that.

But if by WAAC you mean a D-bag who cheats, fudges distances, throws fits, whines, and does things like tailor his lists and stack terrain to beat you, that guy can just feth right off.

Now, if by whiskey. . .

RiTides wrote:

deathholydeath wrote:My opinion is based on my experience that around 70% of the warmahordes players I know and have met came to the game from a CCG.

This is a valid point, as it's from your experience. I don't see any reason this needs to be confrontational.

I've had the exact opposite experience, though. The vast majority (I'd say at least 80%, with most of the 20% being players whose background I'm just not aware of, so it could be even higher) of Warmachine / Hordes players here are converts from other miniatures games... a la 40k/fantasy

And I'm one of them

My experience is about 90% are Minis converts. I played both card games and mini games before playing WM when it was released in 2003. Interestingly, I've actually met more WAAC D-bags in mini games overall than playing card games.

In my experience neither game has claim to more arse hats than the other. It's all about luck what kind of people you have in your area or meet in your travels. I've met a few more playing 40k, but then I've played 40k for over a decade, and Warmachine for only a couple years. Any talk like this is needless pissing that tries to put the systems against each other when there is no reason to and fans of both should be able to get soon just fine.

100% agree, Aduro . And that has been my experience, as well.

The type of scenario (book or steamroller) wasn't even a topic of discussion for the Cygnar guy. He also complained about the single LOS blocking terrain piece I put in the middle of the board.

At our shop, we each grab 3 pieces of terrain and alternate placing them. If one person wants to forfeit his piece, he's welcome to do so, however, most people don't.
6 pieces of terrain and it still doesn't feel crowded. This guy was totally TFG.

Also, sorry, but bringing your tourney list against a new player is totally TFG unless that's all you have on you at the moment.

It's Warmachine. All my lists are tourney lists, unless I've taken leave of my sanity and am running Zerkova with hordes of Assault Kommandos and Kayazy for some reason.

I think that people coming from GW games have a bit of a skewed view in terms of power and what not in WM/H. There are no longfangs, melta vets or grey knights. 40k is obscenely imbalanced where as WM keeps things fairly in line. A tourney list is just optimized and synergetic with a good general behind it. It's optimized in terms of it's synergies and strategy, not in terms of broken units. If you're new, take your beating, ask questions and learn.

newbis wrote:
I wasn't exactly thrilled by the Cygnar player that refused to play a scenario, then just hunkered in the back edge of the board shooting the crap out of me, either.

Back to the OP's post, I've had a run-in with a player like this before: a close friend of mine who was my only source for games for a while. It's happened more than once, and across different gaming systems.

In Fantasy, he'd play High Elves with two 50-man blocks of SG, a battery of ballistas and a sizeable chunk of Swordsmen only to sit back every game and wait for me to come at him, backing up inches as I came at him with my Warriors of Chaos army. He'd shoot my army up and throw every bit of "cheese" magic/items at me that he could. By the time I reached him, my army was ragged and he still had ASF to throw at me. He never wanted to play scenarios that didn't favor his army. He'd lecture me about being patient and also learning the game better with some snide remarks. Needless to say, my drive to play Fantasy went down.

Then we went to WM, which I thought would cure this. We got the two-player Khador/Menoth set and he immediately made a list that favored a turtle stand of using a "bastion bunker" under a jack with two shields that covered the bastions. Shooting did nothing against them, and neither did AOE weapons. He'd keep backing up, pop Kreos' feat and then tear into me. Like WH, he never wanted to play scenarios, just straight on matches where he could make the odds in simply his favor. Again, in this game as well, he'd lecture me about being patient and also learning the game better with some snide remarks.

I play Hordes now after taking a break. It's been great since I found different players to play against. They're fun, outgoing and they do beat the utter tar out of me, however, they're nice about it., not to mention helpful. My friend isn't a bad person at all though, I think he's just a bit misguided with the objective behind the game: having fun.

It's all in perspective. To different people, a game means different things. However, respect should always be given to an opponent; you should be thankful that they gave you the oppurtunity to play, and vice versa. If an opponent can't give me that, then they're not worth playing.

Jake

redarmy , i'm surprised you played him as long as you did.
turtling is never fun no matter what format.
his lecturing and snide remarks so mark him out as TFG!
....i want to stab him in the ear repeatedly with a khador winterguard banner bearer.

Bullockist wrote:turtling is never fun no matter what format.

I once heard a story about a guy playing a game where he was playing Cygnar and had turtled in his deployment zone.
He had misread the scenario rules, and they were playing Killbox (the one where your caster dies if he ends his turn within 10" of a table edge).

So on a turn where he had already activated his caster someone pointed this out to him,
so he had to activate a warjack to throw his caster out of his deployment zone.
Hilarious, as next turn opp simply took a few shots at his KD caster..

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:

Bullockist wrote:turtling is never fun no matter what format.

I once heard a story about a guy playing a game where he was playing Cygnar and had turtled in his deployment zone.
He had misread the scenario rules, and they were playing Killbox (the one where your caster dies if he ends his turn within 10" of a table edge).

So on a turn where he had already activated his caster someone pointed this out to him,
so he had to activate a warjack to throw his caster out of his deployment zone.
Hilarious, as next turn opp simply took a few shots at his KD caster..

Hilarious!

Killbox should just become mandatory for all games.