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liturgies of blood wrote:I may be wrong, I am willing to admit that but the brb requres a roll for perils. Even if the power auto passes that doesn't negate the perils, to ask a very Irish question are you an auto pass on a two or an auto pass on something else.

Actually it doesn't require a roll for perils, it requires a successful psychic test for a power to activate. There is no "roll for perils" there is a psychic test that results in a perils of the warp. If you pass the psychic test automatically, you do not have to roll. By removing the roll for the psychic power from the equation, you also remove the potential for a perils of the warp result on said psychic test. It's like fearless; in that if someone tells you to roll a leadership test you still have to roll that as you only pass morale and pinning tests. If you bypass rolling, you bypass the bad juju from perils.

liturgies, just so I understand your position,
If there is an additional effect from a roll due to rolling "X", you MUST make the roll even if you automatically pass or fail it.

yakface wrote:

liturgies of blood wrote:I may be wrong, I am willing to admit that but the brb requres a roll for perils. Even if the power auto passes that doesn't negate the perils, to ask a very Irish question are you an auto pass on a two or an auto pass on something else.

I see this sort of thing as similar to the plasma cannon rolling a seperate dice for it gets hot.

No. There is no roll for perils. This is where you seem to be getting crossed up.

Perils can occur if a psychic test roll results in double ones or sixes. So you keep saying that the rules require that there be a chance for perils to happen when the rules don't say that!

They just say that if double ones or sixes occur when taking a psychic test THEN perils occurs. If you don't need to roll a psychic test (because its automatically passed) then you have no chance of rolling double ones or sixes and therefore no way of causing a perils of the warp attack in that way.

The problem is though, you're equating automatically passing with not needing to roll.

In the case of fearless, that's alright, because there's literally no reason to (but you can if you want, technically it's RAW to roll).

In the case of psychic checks, it's not ok, because even a passed psychic check can have effects depending on the roll.

Again, in both cases, there is no permission to break the normal rule requiring the unit / psyker to roll against their Leadership. There's just a rule saying that the test is passed regardless of the result.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

yakface wrote:

liturgies of blood wrote:I may be wrong, I am willing to admit that but the brb requres a roll for perils. Even if the power auto passes that doesn't negate the perils, to ask a very Irish question are you an auto pass on a two or an auto pass on something else.

I see this sort of thing as similar to the plasma cannon rolling a seperate dice for it gets hot.

No. There is no roll for perils. This is where you seem to be getting crossed up.

Perils can occur if a psychic test roll results in double ones or sixes. So you keep saying that the rules require that there be a chance for perils to happen when the rules don't say that!

They just say that if double ones or sixes occur when taking a psychic test THEN perils occurs. If you don't need to roll a psychic test (because its automatically passed) then you have no chance of rolling double ones or sixes and therefore no way of causing a perils of the warp attack in that way.

The problem is though, you're equating automatically passing with not needing to roll.

In the case of fearless, that's alright, because there's literally no reason to (but you can if you want, technically it's RAW to roll).

In the case of psychic checks, it's not ok, because even a passed psychic check can have effects depending on the roll.

Again, in both cases, there is no permission to break the normal rule requiring the unit / psyker to roll against their Leadership. There's just a rule saying that the test is passed regardless of the result.

Where. Where does it say that it is technical RAW to roll. You are drawing that from nowhere. I'd say its RAW that you do NOT roll. And the rule doesn't say that 'the test is past regardless of the result [of the roll]. The rule says that the test is automatically passed. Meaning that you don't have to roll.

Unit1126PLL wrote:The problem is though, you're equating automatically passing with not needing to roll.

Thats because if you roll and get a score higher than your LD you have not auto passed the test.

Therefore no roll.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

The problem is though, you're equating automatically passing with not needing to roll.

In the case of fearless, that's alright, because there's literally no reason to (but you can if you want, technically it's RAW to roll).

In the case of psychic checks, it's not ok, because even a passed psychic check can have effects depending on the roll.

Again, in both cases, there is no permission to break the normal rule requiring the unit / psyker to roll against their Leadership. There's just a rule saying that the test is passed regardless of the result.

If it actually said that the test was passed regardless of the result rolled, then you'd be correct.

But it does not say that, it says the test is automatically passed. The 'test' is actually rolling 2D6 and comparing the result to the required Ld. Manually taking the test in this case therefore means rolling the dice. That is what 'manual' means since the actual process of testing is rolling the dice, comparing the score, etc.

Since this test is passed automatically that means you pass the test without needing to take the test (i.e. roll the dice).


I mean, seriously, put this basic equation in front of a hundred people and 98% will understand what is being said.

motyak wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
The problem is though, you're equating automatically passing with not needing to roll.

In the case of fearless, that's alright, because there's literally no reason to (but you can if you want, technically it's RAW to roll).

In the case of psychic checks, it's not ok, because even a passed psychic check can have effects depending on the roll.

Again, in both cases, there is no permission to break the normal rule requiring the unit / psyker to roll against their Leadership. There's just a rule saying that the test is passed regardless of the result.

Where. Where does it say that it is technical RAW to roll. You are drawing that from nowhere. I'd say its RAW that you do NOT roll. And the rule doesn't say that 'the test is past regardless of the result [of the roll]. The rule says that the test is automatically passed. Meaning that you don't have to roll.

RAW from the normal rules says you must roll leadership to cast a psychic power. You are not given permission by the Brotherhood Banner to skip this step - you are just told that it passes.

DeathReaper wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:The problem is though, you're equating automatically passing with not needing to roll.

Thats because if you roll and get a score higher than your LD you have not auto passed the test.

Therefore no roll.

Except that you have passed the test, because Brotherhood Banner overrides the normal rules for psychic checks - that is to say, Brotherhood Banner allows you to pass where you would otherwise fail. It does not give you permission to skip the roll.

yakface wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

The problem is though, you're equating automatically passing with not needing to roll.

In the case of fearless, that's alright, because there's literally no reason to (but you can if you want, technically it's RAW to roll).

In the case of psychic checks, it's not ok, because even a passed psychic check can have effects depending on the roll.

Again, in both cases, there is no permission to break the normal rule requiring the unit / psyker to roll against their Leadership. There's just a rule saying that the test is passed regardless of the result.

If it actually said that the test was passed regardless of the result rolled, then you'd be correct.

But it does not say that, it says the test is automatically passed. The 'test' is actually rolling 2D6 and comparing the result to the required Ld. Manually taking the test in this case therefore means rolling the dice. That is what 'manual' means since the actual process of testing is rolling the dice, comparing the score, etc.

Since this test is passed automatically that means you pass the test without needing to take the test (i.e. roll the dice).


I mean, seriously, put this basic equation in front of a hundred people and 98% will understand what is being said.

I don't get the same connotation from "automatically" as you, even after looking it up again. I understand "the test is automatically passed" to mean "regardless of external factors, the test is passed."

That doesn't imply that the external factors (rolling and perilsing) do not exist, however.

Also appeal to the majority isn't a great debating style.

Can you cite any rules which say that someone who passes a test automatically must still roll for it? No. There is no rule which involves that. It is silly to suggest that you have to roll for the Psychic Test and even if you fail, you pass. That is just as silly as rolling for leadership when you are fearless and then failing, but passing because you automatically pass. There is no rule support for your argument. If, as yakface said, the rule said 'regardless of the result rolled', then you'd be golden and we'd be wrong. But it doesn't. It says automatically, therefore no roll. You don't have to roll. Before you can even roll, it is passed. The instant you open your mouth to say 'Nemesis Force Weapons' you have passed. It never gets to the rolling stage.

DeathReaper wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:The problem is though, you're equating automatically passing with not needing to roll.

Thats because if you roll and get a score higher than your LD you have not auto passed the test.

Therefore no roll.

Except that you have passed the test, because Brotherhood Banner overrides the normal rules for psychic checks - that is to say, Brotherhood Banner allows you to pass where you would otherwise fail. It does not give you permission to skip the roll.

motyak wrote:Can you cite any rules which say that someone who passes a test automatically must still roll for it? No. There is no rule which involves that. It is silly to suggest that you have to roll for the Psychic Test and even if you fail, you pass. That is just as silly as rolling for leadership when you are fearless and then failing, but passing because you automatically pass. There is no rule support for your argument. If, as yakface said, the rule said 'regardless of the result rolled', then you'd be golden and we'd be wrong. But it doesn't. It says automatically, therefore no roll. You don't have to roll. Before you can even roll, it is passed. The instant you open your mouth to say 'Nemesis Force Weapons' you have passed. It never gets to the rolling stage.

Can you cite a rule that says they don't have to roll? Because by normal RAW everyone has to roll.

motyak wrote:
No it doesn't. Where does Brotherhood Banner say 'you pass the rest where you would otherwise fail'. It doesn't. It simply says 'automatically'.

The rule saying that you don't have to roll is the word automatically in the BB rule. If something is automatic then you don't have to do it. You don't have to roll the dice, because they count as having been already rolled and succeeding.

motyak wrote:The rule saying that you don't have to roll is the word automatically in the BB rule. If something is automatic then you don't have to do it. You don't have to roll the dice, because they count as having been already rolled and succeeding.

Then ultimately this boils down to our differing views on the definition of automatic, which is a greater scope than this rule. For my part, I prefer the first definition: "acting or operating in a manner essentially independent of external thought or control." This means that I interpret the rule to say "Independently of the result of the roll (or anything else), the test is passed." I don't actually see any permissions there.

Again, though, it comes down to the definition of automatic.

Which means we can't really solve this argument. Bummer. I hate when the arguments differ in this way. Ah well. At least we'll never have this issue on the table.

Yeah; normally I actually like the way Matt Ward writes rules. But this GK codex is a bit wonky at times. Oh well. Cheers, mate!

If a unit with Get's Hot! or Rending weapons suddenly manage to hit/wound/penetrate automatically, would you still roll? Their special effects trigger on a certain result of the roll, just as Perils trigger on the roll for a Psychic Test. And Get's Hot actually specifies that you're forced to roll for it even if the target is out of range or you're using a Blast weapon.

Personally I'd expect the Banner to tell us we still need to roll for Perils if that was required. Otherwise "pass" is one of the four possible results of the roll.

An equivalent example would be as such;

A plasma gun is used in a "Death or Glory" attempt against an Ork truck.

You automatically hit, do you still need to roll for "Get's Hot"?

If you say no or yes to both, thumbs up. If you say no to only one or the other, reevaluation of argument may be needed.

Wow well done culsandar. I looked for most of the morning (to procrastinate study) and didn't think of death or glory. I was looking through special rules in the codexes (codii?) on hand, didn't think of that. Brava. I'm gonna exalt that for success.

Unit1126PLL wrote:RAW from the normal rules says you must roll leadership to cast a psychic power. You are not given permission by the Brotherhood Banner to skip this step - you are just told that it passes.

Nowhere do the rules say you must roll leadership to cast a psychic power. The rules only say you must pass a psychic test, to use a power. They then go on to say that a psychic test is a leadership test that uses the models leadership.
Since Brotherhood Banner says that I pass the psychic test automatically, I do not need to make a psychic test, therefore I do not need to roll 2D6 and compare it to my Leadership.

@culsander, I asked a similar question and never got an answer. additionally I tried to verify the opposing stance in regards to anything that has a side effect from rolling "X" and never got verification.

Well culsander, imho, you do roll the dice but I may be in the minority. I do say yes to both.

Motyak, codices should be the right plural in latin but it sometimes goes a little bit wrong since English is a living language.

Spetulhu wrote:If a unit with Get's Hot! or Rending weapons suddenly manage to hit/wound/penetrate automatically, would you still roll? Their special effects trigger on a certain result of the roll, just as Perils trigger on the roll for a Psychic Test. And Get's Hot actually specifies that you're forced to roll for it even if the target is out of range or you're using a Blast weapon.

Personally I'd expect the Banner to tell us we still need to roll for Perils if that was required. Otherwise "pass" is one of the four possible results of the roll.

That's a good example actually.
I would say that a Death or Glory attempt did not require a roll to hit since it's automatic - you can't get perils. Not sure about rending, I can't think of a circumstance where a wound is automatic.

I would say that yes, a plasma gun must roll to overheat. After all, I can imagine the trooper melting himself even as his wobbly plasma bolt melted the treads of the on-rushing rhino...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:
Since Brotherhood Banner says that I pass the psychic test automatically, = I do not need to make a psychic test, therefore I do not need to roll 2D6 and compare it to my Leadership.

I put an equals sign where you commit an unsubstantiated leap of logic. Automatically does not imply that you do not take the test.

Unit1126PLL wrote:I would say that yes, a plasma gun must roll to overheat. After all, I can imagine the trooper melting himself even as his wobbly plasma bolt melted the treads of the on-rushing rhino...

What if it's a Plasma Cannon? Blast weapons that Get's Hot! don't fire... and I have a hard time seeing how the trooper can both automatically hit and not shoot.

Spetulhu wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:I would say that yes, a plasma gun must roll to overheat. After all, I can imagine the trooper melting himself even as his wobbly plasma bolt melted the treads of the on-rushing rhino...

What if it's a Plasma Cannon? Blast weapons that Get's Hot! don't fire... and I have a hard time seeing how the trooper can both automatically hit and not shoot.

Exactly. The roll of a specifically means that the weapon missed with a PC (and even with a plasma pistol or plasma gun) and then the additional effect is that it Gets Hot! - preventing you from firing.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. If the trooper fails his Gets Hot! roll, he has not fired and then cannot resolve the automatic hit on the vehicle. Therefore you cannot make the roll without potentially breaking the rules.

I would say that in a Death or Glory the model doesn't need to roll for Gets Hot! and, by the same logic, neither would the roll be required for PoTW with the Brotherhood Banner.

DoW

You don't roll. It is autopass, and no roll is needed. Part of the value of the banner is not having to worry about perils.

That is how I will be playing it, friendly and tournament, until GW says otherwise in a FAQ.

Spetulhu wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:I would say that yes, a plasma gun must roll to overheat. After all, I can imagine the trooper melting himself even as his wobbly plasma bolt melted the treads of the on-rushing rhino...

What if it's a Plasma Cannon? Blast weapons that Get's Hot! don't fire... and I have a hard time seeing how the trooper can both automatically hit and not shoot.

DogOfWar wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:I would say that yes, a plasma gun must roll to overheat. After all, I can imagine the trooper melting himself even as his wobbly plasma bolt melted the treads of the on-rushing rhino...

What if it's a Plasma Cannon? Blast weapons that Get's Hot! don't fire... and I have a hard time seeing how the trooper can both automatically hit and not shoot.

Exactly. The roll of a specifically means that the weapon missed with a PC (and even with a plasma pistol or plasma gun) and then the additional effect is that it Gets Hot! - preventing you from firing.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. If the trooper fails his Gets Hot! roll, he has not fired and then cannot resolve the automatic hit on the vehicle. Therefore you cannot make the roll without potentially breaking the rules.

I would say that in a Death or Glory the model doesn't need to roll for Gets Hot! and, by the same logic, neither would the roll be required for PoTW with the Brotherhood Banner.

DoW

In this case you must then ask which rule is more specific, the auto-hitting during a Tank Shock or the "Get's Hot! doesn't fire if you roll a 1 but only if it's a blast weapon" rule.

I think it is the latter, in which case, a Plasma Cannon standing against a Tank-Shock that over heats does not inflict a hit on the vehicle, as the more general rule (auto-hitting during a tank-shock) is overridden by the more specific (gun does not fire if it is a blast weapon with Gets Hot! that rolls a 1).

again, the gun has rolled to hit, it was automatic, since no dice are rolled, it cannot overheat

to put it an easier way, you declare death or glory, the shot is fired and auto hits, because it auto hits you are not allowed to roll a dice and thus no gets hot can occur, this is the same as a brotherhood banner

Formosa wrote:again, the gun has rolled to hit, it was automatic, since no dice are rolled, it cannot overheat

to put it an easier way, you declare death or glory, the shot is fired and auto hits, because it auto hits = you are not allowed to roll a dice and thus no gets hot can occur, this is the same as a brotherhood banner

I put a red equals sign where you have made an unsubstantiated leap of logic.

Where does the idea that "automatic" means "no dice are rolled" come from?

Unit1126PLL wrote:In this case you must then ask which rule is more specific, the auto-hitting during a Tank Shock or the "Get's Hot! doesn't fire if you roll a 1 but only if it's a blast weapon" rule.

I think it is the latter, in which case, a Plasma Cannon standing against a Tank-Shock that over heats does not inflict a hit on the vehicle, as the more general rule (auto-hitting during a tank-shock) is overridden by the more specific (gun does not fire if it is a blast weapon with Gets Hot! that rolls a 1).

True.

But you also cannot break the rules.

A) Auto hit for DoG with Plasma Cannon, Roll to penetrate, roll for damage, determine if model is destroyed/removed by tank-shocking vehicle.
B) Auto hit for DoG with Plasma Cannon, Roll for Gets Hot!, Roll save (if necessary), remove model (if necessary), roll to penetrate, roll for damage, determine if model is destroyed/removed by tank-shocking vehicle.

In situation B, if you roll for Gets Hot! and get a then you cannot fire. If you cannot fire, you cannot auto-hit, which means you have essentially created Schroedinger's Plasma Cannon and the game breaks.

Not only that, but if the model takes a wound from Gets Hot! and is removed, then you can't resolve the DoG properly because if the shot fails to stop the vehicle, then you are required to remove the model as a casualty. AFAIK there are no rules for removing a single model as a casualty twice unless it has a special rule like WBB.

One can argue that the 'automatic' hit can override the necessity for rolling Gets Hot! but it's pretty hard to argue how you can then be missing and hitting at the same time if you do.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:In this case you must then ask which rule is more specific, the auto-hitting during a Tank Shock or the "Get's Hot! doesn't fire if you roll a 1 but only if it's a blast weapon" rule.

I think it is the latter, in which case, a Plasma Cannon standing against a Tank-Shock that over heats does not inflict a hit on the vehicle, as the more general rule (auto-hitting during a tank-shock) is overridden by the more specific (gun does not fire if it is a blast weapon with Gets Hot! that rolls a 1).

True.

But you also cannot break the rules.

A) Auto hit for DoG with Plasma Cannon, Roll to penetrate, roll for damage, determine if model is destroyed/removed by tank-shocking vehicle.
B) Auto hit for DoG with Plasma Cannon, Roll for Gets Hot!, Roll save (if necessary), remove model (if necessary), roll to penetrate, roll for damage, determine if model is destroyed/removed by tank-shocking vehicle.

In situation B, if you roll for Gets Hot! and get a then you cannot fire. If you cannot fire, you cannot auto-hit, which means you have essentially created Schroedinger's Plasma Cannon and the game breaks.

Not only that, but if the model takes a wound from Gets Hot! and is removed, then you can't resolve the DoG properly because if the shot fails to stop the vehicle, then you are required to remove the model as a casualty. AFAIK there are no rules for removing a single model as a casualty twice unless it has a special rule like WBB.

One can argue that the 'automatic' hit can override the necessity for rolling Gets Hot! but it's pretty hard to argue how you can then be missing and hitting at the same time if you do.

DoW

It doesn't break the game - in the event of a rules conflict, the more specific one takes precedence. How this would work:

The model stands before a tank shock. Rolling a 1 for its Plasma Cannon, it overheats and the automatic hit is resolved no further. Having not stopped the tank, then the model is removed before he gets a chance to roll against the wound from the overheating plasma cannon. Game goes on.

So in the case of the plasma cannon auto hitting I take it you still roll for scatter then? as with all blast weapons? because as you say, automatically hitting does not mean you do not roll the scatter dice. Right?

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Formosa wrote:again, the gun has rolled to hit, it was automatic, since no dice are rolled, it cannot overheat

to put it an easier way, you declare death or glory, the shot is fired and auto hits, because it auto hits = you are not allowed to roll a dice and thus no gets hot can occur, this is the same as a brotherhood banner

I put a red equals sign where you have made an unsubstantiated leap of logic.

Where does the idea that "automatic" means "no dice are rolled" come from?

its simple, if something is automatic, you cannot roll the dice for it, even if you choose to, as it has happened already.

it breaks down like this, DoG=roll to hit=autohit so you cannot infact roll the dice as there is no opertunity to do so, and if you cannot roll the dice, then it is impossible to roll a 1 for gets hot