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Unit1126PLL wrote:

I don't get the same connotation from "automatically" as you, even after looking it up again. I understand "the test is automatically passed" to mean "regardless of external factors, the test is passed."

That doesn't imply that the external factors (rolling and perilsing) do not exist, however.

Also appeal to the majority isn't a great debating style.

When your entire argument hinges upon your ability to interpret the term automatic differently from the majority, then yes it does actually matter. That's the problem with language it is imprecise and two people can have entirely different interpretations of what a word means in any given instance.

However, if a vast majority of people believe the terminology used to mean one thing then it makes no difference how 'right' the people in the minority think they may be, they will still effectively be wrong simply by being in the minority. Or in simpler terms if the world is made up of 100 people and 95 of them see object X as being a car while the other 5 see object X as being a coach, guess what object X actually is? Its obviously a car and not a coach simply because of mass public perception. Over time if those 5 people have lots kids and eventually a sizable percentage of the populace now sees object X as being a 'coach' then eventually that term will become equally accepted as being the definition of object 'X' as well.


In these game situations, rolling dice is not just done for the heck of it, they are actually the means for producing a result. You roll 'to hit' dice to determine if a shot is a hit or miss. That means of producing the result is the manual nature of the test...the result is not automatic, there is a choice that can randomly occur based on the result of the roll. Instead, if a result is automatic, that means there is no chance for the alternate result, there is no basis for manually determining a result. You do not roll the dice because the results of the dice ARE results. If those results are pre-determined automatically by a special rule, then there is no roll because rolls = results.

Just because some of these rolls have additional effects added to them does not change the basic essence of what an automatic result means. If you hit a vehicle with a Destroyer weapon you get an automatic penetration result...and here the wording is more specific (but still completely congruent with my argument):

"If a destroyer weapon hits a vehicle...there is no need to roll for armor penetration -- it automatically scores a penetrating hit."

And the same with a D weapon on a non-vehicle model, it again specifies that there is no need to roll the 'to wound' roll because an automatic wound has been scored.


While you may believe that this wording is more specific and therefore changes the nature of the argument, I strongly disagree. The wording used indicates that there is no reed for a roll because the wound/penetration is automatic.


So yes, I believe if you want to keep arguing this point forever then it would serve us well to put up a poll asking people simply if they think an automatic result supersedes the need to roll the dice to determine said result. Because I think you'll find yourself in a very small minority that believes the word automatic still means that you're supposed to roll the dice.

Unit1126PLL wrote:It doesn't break the game - in the event of a rules conflict, the more specific one takes precedence. How this would work:

The model stands before a tank shock. Rolling a 1 for its Plasma Cannon, it overheats and the automatic hit is resolved no further. Having not stopped the tank, then the model is removed before he gets a chance to roll against the wound from the overheating plasma cannon. Game goes on.

Wait... what?

How can an 'automatic hit' be resolved no further? I can understand creating the paradox by having the model both fire and not fire, but deciding that the automatic hit does nothing isn't "letting a more specific rule take precedence" it's breaking the rules.

There are quite a few things that can be argued about this particular situation, but whether the model hits or not is not one of them. If a model automatically hits, the vehicle takes a hit and must resolve the damage.

DoW

Alright, I'll concede in this one partly because Yakface's post was TLDR for me.

As for the definition of automatic, though, the first one is "operating in a manner essentially independent of external influence or control."

Nowhere in there does it imply that dice should not be rolled in an automatic situation. But again, I will concede this argument, since at least in person I can bring the dictionary with me.

EDIT: As far as rolling to hit in DoG (or rolling to pen with D weapons), if it matters (for example, plasma cannons), you should still roll. But, as with the definition above, the result of a miss has no effect (except in the situations where the rule is overridden by a more specific one) since it is an external factor.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Alright, I'll concede in this one partly because Yakface's post was TLDR for me.

In this case TL;DR means "Too Logical; Don't Respond".

yakface wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

I don't get the same connotation from "automatically" as you, even after looking it up again. I understand "the test is automatically passed" to mean "regardless of external factors, the test is passed."

That doesn't imply that the external factors (rolling and perilsing) do not exist, however.

Also appeal to the majority isn't a great debating style.

When your entire argument hinges upon your ability to interpret the term automatic differently from the majority, then yes it does actually matter. That's the problem with language it is imprecise and two people can have entirely different interpretations of what a word means in any given instance.

However, if a vast majority of people believe the terminology used to mean one thing then it makes no difference how 'right' the people in the minority think they may be, they will still effectively be wrong simply by being in the minority. Or in simpler terms if the world is made up of 100 people and 95 of them see object X as being a car while the other 5 see object X as being a coach, guess what object X actually is? Its obviously a car and not a coach simply because of mass public perception. Over time if those 5 people have lots kids and eventually a sizable percentage of the populace now sees object X as being a 'coach' then eventually that term will become equally accepted as being the definition of object 'X' as well.


In these game situations, rolling dice is not just done for the heck of it, they are actually the means for producing a result. You roll 'to hit' dice to determine if a shot is a hit or miss. That means of producing the result is the manual nature of the test...the result is not automatic, there is a choice that can randomly occur based on the result of the roll. Instead, if a result is automatic, that means there is no chance for the alternate result, there is no basis for manually determining a result. You do not roll the dice because the results of the dice ARE results. If those results are pre-determined automatically by a special rule, then there is no roll because rolls = results.

Just because some of these rolls have additional effects added to them does not change the basic essence of what an automatic result means. If you hit a vehicle with a Destroyer weapon you get an automatic penetration result...and here the wording is more specific (but still completely congruent with my argument):

"If a destroyer weapon hits a vehicle...there is no need to roll for armor penetration -- it automatically scores a penetrating hit."

And the same with a D weapon on a non-vehicle model, it again specifies that there is no need to roll the 'to wound' roll because an automatic wound has been scored.


While you may believe that this wording is more specific and therefore changes the nature of the argument, I strongly disagree. The wording used indicates that there is no reed for a roll because the wound/penetration is automatic.


So yes, I believe if you want to keep arguing this point forever then it would serve us well to put up a poll asking people simply if they think an automatic result supersedes the need to roll the dice to determine said result. Because I think you'll find yourself in a very small minority that believes the word automatic still means that you're supposed to roll the dice.

Lordhat wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Alright, I'll concede in this one partly because Yakface's post was TLDR for me.

In this case TL;DR means "Too Logical; Don't Respond".

Only because Lordhat provoked me:

1) As far as definitions go, according to my dictionary, mine is right. And we're supposed to use dictionaries to find out what words mean more precisely than the colloquial norm. This means, in fact, that the colloquial norm is not always right; i.e. if 95 say it is a coach, 5 say it is a car, and the dictionary says it is a horse, then it is a horse. At least if you subscribe to the modern understanding of language.

2) The result that happens "automatically" in almost every case is one out of two options, in which case you would be correct. However, in the case of psychic checks (for example) or plasma guns, there are other effects to the roll that do not involve passing / failing the test. For example, it is possible to pass a psychic test and still suffer perils.

This means that "automatically passing" is not one of two mutually exclusive outcomes, but one of four overlapping outcomes. Rolling is required to find out if one of the other, possibly simultaneous outcomes occurs.

3) The D-weapon example is, as you say, more specific. Also, it is again one of two possible and mutually exclusive outcomes, at which point rolling really is unnecessary. This is not at all like psychic tests. Incidentally, the fact that they specified, in this case, not to roll a dice, but in all other cases do not could be construed as support for my position.

4) The majority is not always right - I have an english dictionary open in front of me to ensure that I was not mistaken in my understanding of "automatic"

Unit1126PLL wrote:Alright, I'll concede in this one partly because Yakface's post was TLDR for me.

As for the definition of automatic, though, the first one is "operating in a manner essentially independent of external influence or control."

Nowhere in there does it imply that dice should not be rolled in an automatic situation. But again, I will concede this argument, since at least in person I can bring the dictionary with me.

EDIT: As far as rolling to hit in DoG (or rolling to pen with D weapons), if it matters (for example, plasma cannons), you should still roll. But, as with the definition above, the result of a miss has no effect (except in the situations where the rule is overridden by a more specific one) since it is an external factor.

i can use a dictionary too

a. Acting or done without volition or conscious control; involuntary: .

see by that meaning (on the same site i guess you used) its clear no dice are rolled, as its (as stated before) involuntary, you dont get the choice to roll a dice.
again to be clear, the dice HAS been rolled, however it hit automatically, no 1 was rolled or double 6 or double 1, so no perils/gets hot occured.

the only way to perils or gets hot is to roll dice, both the rules mentioned forbid rolling dice (as there is nothing you can roll for)

Formosa wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Alright, I'll concede in this one partly because Yakface's post was TLDR for me.

As for the definition of automatic, though, the first one is "operating in a manner essentially independent of external influence or control."

Nowhere in there does it imply that dice should not be rolled in an automatic situation. But again, I will concede this argument, since at least in person I can bring the dictionary with me.

EDIT: As far as rolling to hit in DoG (or rolling to pen with D weapons), if it matters (for example, plasma cannons), you should still roll. But, as with the definition above, the result of a miss has no effect (except in the situations where the rule is overridden by a more specific one) since it is an external factor.

i can use a dictionary too

a. Acting or done without volition or conscious control; involuntary: .

see by that meaning (on the same site i guess you used) its clear no dice are rolled, as its (as stated before) involuntary, you dont get the choice to roll a dice.
again to be clear, the dice HAS been rolled, however it hit automatically, no 1 was rolled or double 6 or double 1, so no perils/gets hot occured.

the only way to perils or gets hot is to roll dice, both the rules mentioned forbid rolling dice (as there is nothing you can roll for)

RED = where is it so clear?

Dark red = Rolling dice is never a choice - the rulebook says you must always roll a psychic check to cast a psychic power.

Green = no, you just said it hasn't - no dice have been rolled.

Yellow = where does it forbid it?

cyan = you can roll to see if you perils.

Unit1126PLL wrote:4) The majority is not always right - I have an english dictionary open in front of me to ensure that I was not mistaken in my understanding of "automatic"

Quite a lot of the English in your dictionary is right because that's how the majority uses it. Once a usage becomes common enough it's added to dictionaries, possibly with a note about being vulgar, slang or otherwise not quite approved by teachers. In fact, a lot of it is made-up words invented by Shakespear that are now accepted since hey, he couldn't have been wrong now could he?

As for the topic, I don't see how passing is any different for actions that have two, three or more possible outcomes. Rolling to hit you either pass or fail, true. If it Get's Hot! you might also fail and take a wound, but that only happens on a roll of one which is never a hit. Psychic Tests have four possible outcomes - pass+perils, pass, fail and fail+perils. "Pass" is a perfectly valid result for a Psychic Test, no matter if you rolled the dice or was told it automatically passed.

So why complicate things by demanding rolls for actions that already have a set result?

Spetulhu wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:4) The majority is not always right - I have an english dictionary open in front of me to ensure that I was not mistaken in my understanding of "automatic"

Quite a lot of the English in your dictionary is right because that's how the majority uses it. Once a usage becomes common enough it's added to dictionaries, possibly with a note about being vulgar, slang or otherwise not quite approved by teachers. In fact, a lot of it is made-up words invented by Shakespear that are now accepted since hey, he couldn't have been wrong now could he?

As for the topic, I don't see how passing is any different for actions that have two, three or more possible outcomes. Rolling to hit you either pass or fail, true. If it Get's Hot! you might also fail and take a wound, but that only happens on a roll of one which is never a hit. Psychic Tests have four possible outcomes - pass+perils, pass, fail and fail+perils. "Pass" is a perfectly valid result for a Psychic Test, no matter if you rolled the dice or was told it automatically passed.

So why complicate things by demanding rolls for actions that already have a set result?

It's true, but this dictionary is (relatively) current - within the last decade or so.

Yes, pass is a valid result - and you need to still roll, because there are two possible pass results and the rules do not tell you which one takes precedence. You have no permission to decide whether "pass-perils" or "pass-safely" occurs, so you must find out, and the only way to do that is roll a psychic check. All you are told is that, regardless of the result of the check, the power is activated ("the test is passed").

EDIT: Think of it this way - if a special rule exists that says "plasma weapons fired at [insert model here] automatically miss" and then you fired a plasma gun at him, you should still roll to hit, because you might explode and die.

Unit1126PLL wrote:3) The D-weapon example is, as you say, more specific. Also, it is again one of two possible and mutually exclusive outcomes, at which point rolling really is unnecessary. This is not at all like psychic tests. Incidentally, the fact that they specified, in this case, not to roll a dice, but in all other cases do not could be construed as support for my position.

The D-Weapon wording is more specific, but it does not alter the meaning of an automatic result. Please read again:

"If a destroyer weapon hits a vehicle...there is no need to roll for armor penetration -- it automatically scores a penetrating hit."


So why is there no need to an armor penetration roll exactly? That part of the sentence is not a directive, it is an explanation. The only command in the rule is that it automatically scores a penetrating hit. The clarification of that being that therefore there is no need to roll for armor penetration.

1) As far as definitions go, according to my dictionary, mine is right. And we're supposed to use dictionaries to find out what words mean more precisely than the colloquial norm. This means, in fact, that the colloquial norm is not always right; i.e. if 95 say it is a coach, 5 say it is a car, and the dictionary says it is a horse, then it is a horse. At least if you subscribe to the modern understanding of language.

4) The majority is not always right - I have an english dictionary open in front of me to ensure that I was not mistaken in my understanding of "automatic"

Your interpretation of the definition is not 'correct'. There isn't even really a definition of automatic that appropriately fits this particular situation without its own set of interpretations.

While you've read the definition to mean that the result is independent of the dice roll, most other people understand it to mean that the result is independent of the need to even make the roll in the first place.

And guess what? Dictionary definitions are changed or added because of the usage of the word. If people start referring to a word to mean one thing that it didn't before then over enough time and with enough people using the word that way the definition gets changed to match.

2) The result that happens "automatically" in almost every case is one out of two options, in which case you would be correct. However, in the case of psychic checks (for example) or plasma guns, there are other effects to the roll that do not involve passing / failing the test. For example, it is possible to pass a psychic test and still suffer perils.

This means that "automatically passing" is not one of two mutually exclusive outcomes, but one of four overlapping outcomes. Rolling is required to find out if one of the other, possibly simultaneous outcomes occurs.

This is totally incorrect. The required dice rolls are ONLY to find the pass/fail result, which are not needed because the result is automatically determined in this case.

Any side benefits that stem out of such rolls are not part of the requirement. 'Passing' a psychic test means one thing and one thing only. Whether or not you perils while passing the test is irrelevant to whether the test is passed or failed. Similarly, rolls 'to hit' either produce a hit or they do not. Any side effects (such as 'gets hot') are completely irrelevant to whether a roll to hit succeeds or fails.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Formosa wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Alright, I'll concede in this one partly because Yakface's post was TLDR for me.

As for the definition of automatic, though, the first one is "operating in a manner essentially independent of external influence or control."

Nowhere in there does it imply that dice should not be rolled in an automatic situation. But again, I will concede this argument, since at least in person I can bring the dictionary with me.

EDIT: As far as rolling to hit in DoG (or rolling to pen with D weapons), if it matters (for example, plasma cannons), you should still roll. But, as with the definition above, the result of a miss has no effect (except in the situations where the rule is overridden by a more specific one) since it is an external factor.

i can use a dictionary too

a. Acting or done without volition or conscious control; involuntary: .

see by that meaning (on the same site i guess you used) its clear no dice are rolled, as its (as stated before) involuntary, you dont get the choice to roll a dice.
again to be clear, the dice HAS been rolled, however it hit automatically, no 1 was rolled or double 6 or double 1, so no perils/gets hot occured.

the only way to perils or gets hot is to roll dice, both the rules mentioned forbid rolling dice (as there is nothing you can roll for)

RED = where is it so clear?

Dark red = Rolling dice is never a choice - the rulebook says you must always roll a psychic check to cast a psychic power.

Green = no, you just said it hasn't - no dice have been rolled.

Yellow = where does it forbid it?

cyan = you can roll to see if you perils.

Red: its clear simply because you cannot pick up non existent dice and roll them, the test has been automatically passed, it was done for you
dark red: there is always a choice, you can choose not to shoot, and psy powers are also a choice, you can choose not to use the power, but in this case im refering to the fact that you cant roll a dice that you cannot pick up, they have been rolled for us, and the result was pre-determined
Green: to clarify that point, no physical dice have been rolled, the result has been pre-determined and thus you cannot pick up those dice and test for a perils, however techncally a dice has been rolled (as a test was made)
Yellow: care to explain to me how you can roll a test that passed automatically?

Im guessing your being purposfully arguementative here

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Formosa wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Alright, I'll concede in this one partly because Yakface's post was TLDR for me.

As for the definition of automatic, though, the first one is "operating in a manner essentially independent of external influence or control."

Nowhere in there does it imply that dice should not be rolled in an automatic situation. But again, I will concede this argument, since at least in person I can bring the dictionary with me.

EDIT: As far as rolling to hit in DoG (or rolling to pen with D weapons), if it matters (for example, plasma cannons), you should still roll. But, as with the definition above, the result of a miss has no effect (except in the situations where the rule is overridden by a more specific one) since it is an external factor.

i can use a dictionary too

a. Acting or done without volition or conscious control; involuntary: .

see by that meaning (on the same site i guess you used) its clear no dice are rolled, as its (as stated before) involuntary, you dont get the choice to roll a dice.
again to be clear, the dice HAS been rolled, however it hit automatically, no 1 was rolled or double 6 or double 1, so no perils/gets hot occured.

the only way to perils or gets hot is to roll dice, both the rules mentioned forbid rolling dice (as there is nothing you can roll for)

RED = where is it so clear?

Dark red = Rolling dice is never a choice - the rulebook says you must always roll a psychic check to cast a psychic power.

Green = no, you just said it hasn't - no dice have been rolled.

Yellow = where does it forbid it?

cyan = you can roll to see if you perils.

Please show an actual rule that you must always roll a psychic check to cast a psychic power.
The only rule to use a psychic power is to pass a psychic test (page 50, left column, second paragraph, second sentence).
The rules then go on to explain that this is a normal Leadership test, and clarifies it must be on the Psykers Leadership.

If a model is Fearless, it automatically passes Morale and Pinning tests. Do you still insist your opponent rolls to see if they would fail the test?
I know your stance on DoG and Destroyer weapons, so I won't ask about those.
What about other rules that allow you to automatically pass or fail a test. Do you insist your opponent rolls those?
Do you insist models that are not affected by Difficult Terrain still roll to see how far they would have been able to move?

If you are tank shocking a unit of Pathfinders/Rangers, and one chooses to DoG, you score an automatic hit on the front armor. The Rangers gain AP1 if they hit on a 6, but they will never gain this benefit gainst a tank shock, as there is no roll to hit. They hit automatically.

I'm not sure here. Do all fearless units have ATSKNF? Or do we count the 3" movement after passing the test something that lies outside the den of "restrictions"?

If we are talking about specific>general isn't the auto hit in DoG more specific than roll to hit? Therefore since the more specific rule>general rule it implies that the Auto trumps the roll to hit and thus no roll is made.

That is our point, optimus. If something happens automatically, there is no dice roll and you will not suffer any of the "Bad Stuff".

Plasma weapons don't roll get's hot vs Tank Shock do they?

No, they don't. Generally anything that would have to make you time travel is not a good precedent for the game.

By time travel I mean of course...

Player one declares tank shock and his path contacts unit X
Player two declares Death or glory with one model out of unit X, this model happens to have a plasma weapon.

By declaring DoG, the model with the plasma gun has automatically hit. That is the effect of declaring DoG.

If the model were still forced to roll to hit just to see if it got hot, he could in effect, now miss.

But he already hit, part of DoG is that you hit automatically. It has happened, any roll that could make this not happen is not only unneeded, but illegal.