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The Space Wolves have a prophecy that heralds the return of the All Father. The Salamanders have their equivalent, as do the Dark Angels.

To say that the Primarchs are actually still alive (which raises a heap of questions as to what they've been doing dicking around all this time) is about as true as saying King Arthur is still alive.

Dark Apostle Thirst wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote: 4) Where is the evidence that the Lion is anymore alive than the other missing Primarchs? So far we only have conjecture, rumours and prophecy, which is about the same as what the Space Wolves have.

Actually, that's more. Prophecies have a nasty habit of coming true. All the Space Wolves have is the primarch who thought Magnus was in the wrong but his rune priests were all good promising to come back. Tell me, which one do you trust more in the 40k universe?

I'm going with Space Knights over Space Vikings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hazardous Harry wrote:The Space Wolves have a prophecy that heralds the return of the All Father. The Salamanders have their equivalent, as do the Dark Angels.

To say that the Primarchs are actually still alive (which raises a heap of questions as to what they've been doing dicking around all this time) is about as true as saying King Arthur is still alive.

Don't forget the general trend of 40k - prophecies DO come true here.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

1) If the Emperor is taking such an active role why is Lion taking the reins?

He does not. He let's the High Lords govern and the Inner Circle oversee. But if He needs to, He commands the Inner Circle to make it so, or manifests through 'avatars' and saints. I may sound like a Thorian (if I were an Inquisitor, I'd be a Thorian), but it fits.

2) Why is Lion considered the heir? If the Horus Heresy taught us anything it is that Primarchs are fine commanders of super-human troops but terrible leaders for the rest of mankind.

Guilliman didn't do so bad. And Lion doesn't need to be Emperor. He can be Lord Commander of the Imperium, like Guilliman.

3) The Custodes intervened at the height of Vandire Heresy, and there is little evidence of their meddling elsewhere. You can't say that the Emperor would even known about the move to silence to unstable factor that is Lion, let alone oppose it.

He knows - they meet in His palace, how could He not know?

I do. I never really understood why people hate Lion and his legion. They were noble warriors, and they still are, even if they're a somewhat sinister lot.

There's a fair bit of evidence (by way of novels only) that the Lion was nowhere near as loyal to Emperor as you suggest. He was, after all, raised in complete isolation from humanity for the majority of his childhood.

Tadashi wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:The Space Wolves have a prophecy that heralds the return of the All Father. The Salamanders have their equivalent, as do the Dark Angels.

To say that the Primarchs are actually still alive (which raises a heap of questions as to what they've been doing dicking around all this time) is about as true as saying King Arthur is still alive.

Don't forget the general trend of 40k - prophecies DO come true here.

This means nothing. For every prophecy in 40k that is mentioned to have come true (which would include the more ambiguous ones) there are likely 1000 that are forgotten and proven wrong or never fulfilled.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

1) If the Emperor is taking such an active role why is Lion taking the reins?

He does not. He let's the High Lords govern and the Inner Circle oversee. But if He needs to, He commands the Inner Circle to make it so, or manifests through 'avatars' and saints. I may sound like a Thorian (if I were an Inquisitor, I'd be a Thorian), but it fits.

The Emperor certainly doesn't command the High Lords at all. He doesn't even communicate with them. The Custodes bringing the Brides of the Emperor to the Throne Room during the Vandire Heresy was extremely out of the ordinary. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest whether or not the Emperor is even capable of making his wishes known to the council let alone that he does so (whatever they may claim).

2) Why is Lion considered the heir? If the Horus Heresy taught us anything it is that Primarchs are fine commanders of super-human troops but terrible leaders for the rest of mankind.

Guilliman didn't do so bad. And Lion doesn't need to be Emperor. He can be Lord Commander of the Imperium, like Guilliman.

Guilliman did the best he could, which was a fine job, given that it was in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy. However he did so with the express intention of no one short of the Emperor being invested with such power ever again. The Imperium doesn't need a Lord Commander now, if anything it will only lead to chaos and insurrection, especially if the Lion were to make his views of the Ecclessiarchy known.

3) The Custodes intervened at the height of Vandire Heresy, and there is little evidence of their meddling elsewhere. You can't say that the Emperor would even known about the move to silence to unstable factor that is Lion, let alone oppose it.

He knows - they meet in His palace, how could He not know?

"He knows - Horus is His first and favoured Primarch, how could He not know?"

The Emperor is not omnipresent, far from it, especially in his current state. The Emperor is, at times, able to express his will through suitable vessels (if you buy into the Thorian view, which I personally find appealing). But he does not communicate with those in the Palace of Terra willy-nilly, frequently or even rarely. There is only one recorded instance of the Emperor directly conversing with personnel within the palace (the Vandire Heresy) and even then we don't know if the Emperor even spoke at all. We don't even if the Emperor even spoke or did anything, it could have been that just seeing his form brought the leaders of the Brides of the Emperor to their senses.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:The Space Wolves have a prophecy that heralds the return of the All Father. The Salamanders have their equivalent, as do the Dark Angels.

To say that the Primarchs are actually still alive (which raises a heap of questions as to what they've been doing dicking around all this time) is about as true as saying King Arthur is still alive.

Don't forget the general trend of 40k - prophecies DO come true here.

This means nothing. For every prophecy in 40k that is mentioned to have come true (which would include the more ambiguous ones) there are likely 1000 that are forgotten and proven wrong or never fulfilled.

Fair enough - but as with many other things, let us not set our minds in stone.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

1) If the Emperor is taking such an active role why is Lion taking the reins?

He does not. He let's the High Lords govern and the Inner Circle oversee. But if He needs to, He commands the Inner Circle to make it so, or manifests through 'avatars' and saints. I may sound like a Thorian (if I were an Inquisitor, I'd be a Thorian), but it fits.

The Emperor certainly doesn't command the High Lords at all. He doesn't even communicate with them. The Custodes bringing the Brides of the Emperor to the Throne Room during the Vandire Heresy was extremely out of the ordinary. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest whether or not the Emperor is even capable of making his wishes known to the council let alone that he does so (whatever they may claim).

You keep suggesting that the Emperor is somehow communicating, or at least capable of communicating, with the High Lords of Terra. There simply isn't any evidence of that in the slightest. In fact there is evidence that the he is incapable of doing so, otherwise an individual so unstable as Goge Vandire would never have been able to seize power in the first place, and go on unchallenged.

Actually if you read the DA codex it says an I quote The emperor created 20 primarcs IMMORTAL Superbiengs

Hazardous Harry wrote:You keep suggesting that the Emperor is somehow communicating, or at least capable of communicating, with the High Lords of Terra. There simply isn't any evidence of that in the slightest. In fact there is evidence that the he is incapable of doing so, otherwise an individual so unstable as Goge Vandire would never have been able to seize power in the first place, and go on unchallenged.

He was busy elsewhere - like containing the Warp Storms popping up around the galaxy like daisies at the time. And technically speaking, the Inner Circle's job isn't to oversee the Imperium itself, but the fight against Chaos. As long as someone like Horus isn't on Terra, they probably wouldn't care less if a madman was presiding over the Council. And the old man was probably planning for Thor 'bout this time.

zigzagboom wrote:Actually if you read the DA codex it says an I quote The emperor created 20 primarcs IMMORTAL Superbiengs

Of course Imperial sources are going to claim that the Emperor and his Archangels are immortal. You'd probably be executed for thinking otherwise. We're talking about whether they factually are, not what Imperial sources believe.

Tadashi wrote:

He was busy elsewhere - like containing the Warp Storms popping up around the galaxy like daisies at the time.

Really? That's kind of claim is going to need evidence.

And technically speaking, the Inner Circle's job isn't to oversee the Imperium itself, but the fight against Chaos. As long as someone like Horus isn't on Terra, they probably wouldn't care less if a madman was presiding over the Council. And the old man was probably planning for Thor 'bout this time.

Of course they bloody well would. Why on earth wouldn't they?

Hazardous Harry wrote:

zigzagboom wrote:Actually if you read the DA codex it says an I quote The emperor created 20 primarcs IMMORTAL Superbiengs

Of course Imperial sources are going to claim that the Emperor and his Archangels are immortal. You'd probably be executed for thinking otherwise. We're talking about whether they factually are, not what Imperial sources believe.

Tadashi wrote:

He was busy elsewhere - like containing the Warp Storms popping up around the galaxy like daisies at the time.

Really? That's kind of claim is going to need evidence.

What do you think He's been doing since He was enthroned?
1) Keeping Astronomican functioning
2) Periodically soul-binds Astropaths
3) Protects non-Chaos worshiping Human souls after death
4) Making sure Chaos can't directly manifest on a general basis

And technically speaking, the Inner Circle's job isn't to oversee the Imperium itself, but the fight against Chaos. As long as someone like Horus isn't on Terra, they probably wouldn't care less if a madman was presiding over the Council. And the old man was probably planning for Thor 'bout this time.

Of course they bloody well would. Why on earth wouldn't they?

Tadashi wrote:
What do you think He's been doing since He was enthroned?
1) Keeping Astronomican functioning
2) Periodically soul-binds Astropaths
3) Protects non-Chaos worshiping Human souls after death
4) Making sure Chaos can't directly manifest on a general basis

None of which is evidence that the Emperor is capable of communicating with those present in his Throne room. If he was capable of that he could basically run the Imperium from his Throne, and it's clear that this isn't the case.

Because it's not their job. How many Inquisitors are there? How many of them could be trusted to be granted the Right of Audience that marks a member of the Inner Circle? And how big is the galaxy? They have their hands full containing the Great Enemy - so long as the Imperium functions well enough, they're fine with it.

What exactly is their purpose? I would imagine that it is to operate in a manner that will benefit Mankind. Opposing the Ruinous Powers is clearly a sure way of going about this, but they would certainly care if someone is destroying the Imperium behind their back while they do so. But this is irrelevant, I'm wondering why you think the Emperor himself wouldn't care that a madman was put in charge of the Imperium.

As a Military General of the US my job might be to plan, conduct and oversee military operations. But that doesn't mean I would not be concerned if a complete madman was put into the office of President, and his decisions threatened the continued existence of the United States and its citizens.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
What do you think He's been doing since He was enthroned?
1) Keeping Astronomican functioning
2) Periodically soul-binds Astropaths
3) Protects non-Chaos worshiping Human souls after death
4) Making sure Chaos can't directly manifest on a general basis

None of which is evidence that the Emperor is capable of communicating with those present in his Throne room. If he was capable of that he could basically run the Imperium from his Throne, and it's clear that this isn't the case.

Look up Inquisitor Draco, if you please. And the reason the Council of Terra and their successors - the High Lords - were formed was to govern the Imperium while the old man was busy with other matters.

Because it's not their job. How many Inquisitors are there? How many of them could be trusted to be granted the Right of Audience that marks a member of the Inner Circle? And how big is the galaxy? They have their hands full containing the Great Enemy - so long as the Imperium functions well enough, they're fine with it.

What exactly is their purpose? I would imagine that it is to operate in a manner that will benefit Mankind. Opposing the Ruinous Powers is clearly a sure way of going about this, but they would certainly care if someone is destroying the Imperium behind their back while they do so. But this is irrelevant, I'm wondering why you think the Emperor himself wouldn't care that a madman was put in charge of the Imperium.

The fluff is vague on them, only that they have Right of Audience. And why do you think Thor appeared in the first place.

As a Military General of the US my job might be to plan, conduct and oversee military operations. But that doesn't mean I would not be concerned if a complete madman was put into the office of President, and his decisions threatened the continued existence of the United States and its citizens.

Macarthur felt that way about Truman. But I'd rather not start a civil war until I'm sure I'm in the right - like when Thor appeared and the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath showed the old man had had enough.

Of course some prophecies are forgotten and what not. But those dealing with the bigger players tend not to lose that power.

Also, Vulkan actually left a trail for the Salamanders to follow somewhere...

Tadashi wrote:

Look up Inquisitor Draco, if you please. And the reason the Council of Terra and their successors - the High Lords - were formed was to govern the Imperium while the old man was busy with other matters.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Jaq_Draco#.T8OmxNXOz7I
I only have this to go on, which doesn't offer much information.

The fluff is vague on them, only that they have Right of Audience. And why do you think Thor appeared in the first place.

Thor's existence is only further evidence that the Emperor is incapable of directly communicating with whoever he chooses. He has to find a suitable host to make his will known, one which was in this case several sectors away.

Macarthur felt that way about Truman. But I'd rather not start a civil war until I'm sure I'm in the right - like when Thor appeared and the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath showed the old man had had enough.

If the President had his entire cabinet, including the opposition and everyone in the senate, murdered I might be considering it.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Look up Inquisitor Draco, if you please. And the reason the Council of Terra and their successors - the High Lords - were formed was to govern the Imperium while the old man was busy with other matters.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Jaq_Draco#.T8OmxNXOz7I
I only have this to go on, which doesn't offer much information.

Inquisitor Draco had an audience with the Emperor and tried to warn Him about the Illuminati and the Ordo Hydra - thing is, the old man already knew. That same audience revealed that the Emperor is busy coordinating plans across reality and (implied) time - the Emperor even stopped time so Draco could approach the Throne without the Custodes interfering, as Draco did not have Right of Audience.

Macarthur felt that way about Truman. But I'd rather not start a civil war until I'm sure I'm in the right - like when Thor appeared and the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath showed the old man had had enough.

If the President had his entire cabinet, including the opposition and everyone in the senate, murdered I might be considering it.

Tadashi wrote:

Inquisitor Draco had an audience with the Emperor and tried to warn Him about the Illuminati and the Ordo Hydra - thing is, the old man already knew. That same audience revealed that the Emperor is busy coordinating plans across reality and (implied) time - the Emperor even stopped time so Draco could approach the Throne without the Custodes interfering, as Draco did not have Right of Audience.

Which contradicts a lot of official GW fluff, hence why I'm of the opinion it should be discarded. If this were the case he could simply have instructed the High Lords to remove Vandire when they had the chance.

Fair enough, but Vandire just replaced them with yes-men and puppets - a semblance of government. I'm not starting a civil war over that - not until I have definite proof I'm in the right.

He had every single cardinal of the Ecclessiarchy beheaded. People knew that he was insane. It's not treachery to act in the best interests of the Imperium, if that is ultimately where your loyalities lie.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Inquisitor Draco had an audience with the Emperor and tried to warn Him about the Illuminati and the Ordo Hydra - thing is, the old man already knew. That same audience revealed that the Emperor is busy coordinating plans across reality and (implied) time - the Emperor even stopped time so Draco could approach the Throne without the Custodes interfering, as Draco did not have Right of Audience.

Which contradicts a lot of official GW fluff, hence why I'm of the opinion it should be discarded. If this were the case he could simply have instructed the High Lords to remove Vandire when they had the chance.

You haven't read the novel, but one of the important points in their conversation was that the Emperor could barely spare His attentions on an audience. He's as powerful as all four Powers combined, but between keeping them back, focusing the Astronomican, and guiding multiple plans across time and space, He can't exactly concentrate on the day-to-day running of the Imperium. The Council of Terra/High Lords of Terra were formed to govern the Imperium because the Emperor is busy with other matters. Even then, the Emperor would prefer to indirectly intervene because He wanted Humans to solve their own problems as much as possible.

Fair enough, but Vandire just replaced them with yes-men and puppets - a semblance of government. I'm not starting a civil war over that - not until I have definite proof I'm in the right.

He had every single cardinal of the Ecclessiarchy beheaded. People knew that he was insane. It's not treachery to act in the best interests of the Imperium, if that is ultimately where your loyalities lie.

Tadashi wrote:
You haven't read the novel, but one of the important points in their conversation was that the Emperor could barely spare His attentions on an audience. He's as powerful as all four Powers combined, but between keeping them back, focusing the Astronomican, and guiding multiple plans across time and space, He can't exactly concentrate on the day-to-day running of the Imperium. The Council of Terra/High Lords of Terra were formed to govern the Imperium because the Emperor is busy with other matters. Even then, the Emperor would prefer to indirectly intervene because He wanted Humans to solve their own problems as much as possible.

Which is why I don't particularly like this piece of canon, because it clashes with the official GW canon that suggests otherwise.

You should know by now that Space Marines and the Adeptus Mechanicus, who were ultimately the ones who revolted, care little about the Ecclesiarchy. And these guys prefer to be certain before they do anything drastic.

Actually, they held back until the last minute, only joining in when Sebastian Thor had really gotten the ball rolling.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
You haven't read the novel, but one of the important points in their conversation was that the Emperor could barely spare His attentions on an audience. He's as powerful as all four Powers combined, but between keeping them back, focusing the Astronomican, and guiding multiple plans across time and space, He can't exactly concentrate on the day-to-day running of the Imperium. The Council of Terra/High Lords of Terra were formed to govern the Imperium because the Emperor is busy with other matters. Even then, the Emperor would prefer to indirectly intervene because He wanted Humans to solve their own problems as much as possible.

Which is why I don't particularly like this piece of canon, because it clashes with the official GW canon that suggests otherwise.

Actually, we should note that the Illuminati and everything related to them were simply 'unmentioned'. Unlike the squats, they were never explicitly written out of the fluff.

You should know by now that Space Marines and the Adeptus Mechanicus, who were ultimately the ones who revolted, care little about the Ecclesiarchy. And these guys prefer to be certain before they do anything drastic.

Actually, they held back until the last minute, only joining in when Sebastian Thor had really gotten the ball rolling.

I kinda like Lion and the Dark Angels. He just didn't know Perturabo was a traitor, and the reason he didn't go to Terra at first was because of Warp interference and the rather persistent efforts of the Night Lords. By the time they broke through, it was too late.

That's if you believe that he really was delayed, and not just holding back to see who was coming out on top.

Lifespan is all relative within 40k. Ships have entered the warp and been spat out a hundred years later, with only a fraction of that time passing on the ship. I seem to remember some old fluff about some even appearing before they set off...

Tadashi wrote:

Actually, we should note that the Illuminati and everything related to them were simply 'unmentioned'. Unlike the squats, they were never explicitly written out of the fluff.

Wasn't there some mention that the Illuminati and Sensai (or whatever they were called) were actually part of a cult being manipulated by Tzeench?

You should know by now that Space Marines and the Adeptus Mechanicus, who were ultimately the ones who revolted, care little about the Ecclesiarchy. And these guys prefer to be certain before they do anything drastic.

Actually, they held back until the last minute, only joining in when Sebastian Thor had really gotten the ball rolling.

Precisely.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Actually, we should note that the Illuminati and everything related to them were simply 'unmentioned'. Unlike the squats, they were never explicitly written out of the fluff.

Wasn't there some mention that the Illuminati and Sensai (or whatever they were called) were actually part of a cult being manipulated by Tzeench?

The purge was implied to be a cover-up by Illuminati members of the Ordo Malleus.

You should know by now that Space Marines and the Adeptus Mechanicus, who were ultimately the ones who revolted, care little about the Ecclesiarchy. And these guys prefer to be certain before they do anything drastic.

Actually, they held back until the last minute, only joining in when Sebastian Thor had really gotten the ball rolling.

Precisely.

What? They waited until the better half of the Imperium was up in arms against the Goge Vandire, not because they were indecisive but because they simply wouldn't be able to take on the combined might of the rest of the Imperium.

Both, IMO. And also because the Astartes and the Mechanicus don't concern themselves with the Administratum and the Ecclesiarchy unless necessary.

Tadashi wrote:
The purge was implied to be a cover-up by Illuminati members of the Ordo Malleus.

Isn't that exactly the kind of thing that a follower of Tzeench would come up with?

Both, IMO. And also because the Astartes and the Mechanicus don't concern themselves with the Administratum and the Ecclesiarchy unless necessary.

But it wasn't just the Administratum and Ecclesiarchy, we're talking about the Imperium as a whole. If the FBI is burning down Washington DC you don't say, "Well the military doesn't concern itself with the FBI so our hands are tied."

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
The purge was implied to be a cover-up by Illuminati members of the Ordo Malleus.

Isn't that exactly the kind of thing that a follower of Tzeench would come up with?

Both, IMO. And also because the Astartes and the Mechanicus don't concern themselves with the Administratum and the Ecclesiarchy unless necessary.

But it wasn't just the Administratum and Ecclesiarchy, we're talking about the Imperium as a whole. If the FBI is burning down Washington DC you don't say, "Well the military doesn't concern itself with the FBI so our hands are tied."

3 points:

1. The Space marines that led the charge back in were trapped at the edges of the galaxy by warp storms, and charged in once they learned what was happening.

2. The All Father was stated to be alive, but seperated from the thirteenth company in the Space Wolf omnibus.

3. In the HH novel, Luna Wolves, Two marines have a discussion on their fates after the Great Crusade, and one mentions that marines were blessed and cursed. Blessed with Immunity to Aging and disease, but cursed to die in battle.

Back on topic:

Bjorn is known to have been old when he was put into the dreadnought body, and is still alive. He also fought in active status for 500 years after becoming a dreadnought, before allowing them to put him in stasis for any length of time.

Admittedly, dreadnoughts spend most of the time in hibernation, but even a full life support system cannot keep a non-immortal body cooking forever. The body itself will age and wear out until there is nothing for the machines to support.

Really, for any practical purpose, they are immortal. Normal humans can reach 2-300 years old with augmetics and rejuvenat treatments. So a Marine, with the Emperors DNA and genetic tampering, and with the same augmetics and treatments, thousands of years old becomes reachable. Its just that whole 'dying in battle' thing that gets in the way.

Tadashi wrote:
That would be treason. And in any case, as I've said before and will say again, the Space Marines and the Mechanicum were unwilling to do anything about the matter until they were sure they were in the right.

"The Adeptus Astartes held aloof and looked to their own councils, unsure what course history would take. Even the Tech-Priests turned away from the High Lords." - The Age of Apostasy Warhammer 40,000 Wargear 2nd Editiion

This only indicates that they were powerless, not that they were unsure that they were in the right.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
That would be treason. And in any case, as I've said before and will say again, the Space Marines and the Mechanicum were unwilling to do anything about the matter until they were sure they were in the right.

"The Adeptus Astartes held aloof and looked to their own councils, unsure what course history would take. Even the Tech-Priests turned away from the High Lords." - The Age of Apostasy Warhammer 40,000 Wargear 2nd Editiion

This only indicates that they were powerless, not that they were unsure that they were in the right.

Yeah, and in the end, IIRC, an army laid siege to the Ecclesiarchal Palace was composed of Space Marines and Mechanicum troops. Powerless? They just didn't choose to act. Even before Thor appeared, the Space Marines and the Mechanicum were keeping Vandire's goons out of their Homeworlds and Forge Worlds.

Tadashi wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
That would be treason. And in any case, as I've said before and will say again, the Space Marines and the Mechanicum were unwilling to do anything about the matter until they were sure they were in the right.

"The Adeptus Astartes held aloof and looked to their own councils, unsure what course history would take. Even the Tech-Priests turned away from the High Lords." - The Age of Apostasy Warhammer 40,000 Wargear 2nd Editiion

This only indicates that they were powerless, not that they were unsure that they were in the right.

Yeah, and in the end, IIRC, an army laid siege to the Ecclesiarchal Palace was composed of Space Marines and Mechanicum troops. Powerless? They just didn't choose to act. Even before Thor appeared, the Space Marines and the Mechanicum were keeping Vandire's goons out of their Homeworlds and Forge Worlds.

They only joined in when Sebastian Thor arrived, at the head of the better part of a Segmentum fleet.

The Astartes may have decided to join in and even spearhead the assault once things were looking up, but they were small fries compared to the force Thor was leading.

Space Marines live forever or die trying.