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So when they shoot your carnifex, barely touching the back end of it with the narrow end so he can roast your genestealers, just so he can charge the fex and instakill it with his nemesis doomfists, that's fine?

Spellbound wrote:So when they shoot your carnifex, barely touching the back end of it with the narrow end so he can roast your genestealers, just so he can charge the fex and instakill it with his nemesis doomfists, that's fine?

Yes. Assuming of course you've put your genestealers in exact position where this can be done.
Rules are clear cut in this case, large end being no closer than narrow end takes precedence and other template placement rules are applied with that limit in place.

Hellhounds have been able to do this for very long time.

Hellhounds can't assault with force weapons and leap 30", either. And I've NEVER seen a hellhound shoot this way. I'd have definitely said something if someone tried it.

I maintain that both conditions must be satisfied. Seems clear to me.

Spellbound wrote:Hellhounds can't assault with force weapons and leap 30", either. And I've NEVER seen a hellhound shoot this way. I'd have definitely said something if someone tried it.

I maintain that both conditions must be satisfied. Seems clear to me.

What do you mean both?

That you have to place the small end to maximize hits?
You realize that this may require picking up and moving the lpoint after you've placed it once, which the rules do not allow, right?
There's more abuses there IMO.

Spellbound wrote:I maintain that both conditions must be satisfied. Seems clear to me.

Yes, both conditions must obviously be satisfied at same time. So the real placement rule in this case is: "While making sure that large end of the template is not closer to the weapon than the short end, place the template so that it covers as many models from the target unit without touching any friendly models".

For example, where T is model from Target unit, O is model from other unit, S is starting point and D is DK. Template cannot be placed so that it points towards DK, even though it would cover more models of the target unit that way. Following all placement rules it is therefore possible for GK player to cause more hits to the other unit than the Target unit.

O
O
T
S
T
T
T

D

He would have to place the narrow end down lower on your diagram, so it hit more of T.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I'm not saying it has to hit more T's than O's, mind. If the target unit was two models standing in front of 15 packed in unfortunates, then so be it. But it would have to be placed to hit both the models in the target unit.

Spellbound wrote:He would have to place the narrow end down lower on your diagram, so it hit more of T.

Doing that would be breaking the rules.
"To fire the heavy incinerator, place the template so that the narrow end is within 12" of the weapon and the large end is no closer to the weapon than the narrow end. The heavy incinerator is then treated like any other template weapon".
Heavy incinerator is treated as normal template weapon only AFTER the narrow end has been placed.

Spellbound wrote:A regular opponent of mine insists that not only are there no guidelines as to how the template is placed in regards to the unit you are shooting at, but goes as far as to insist that heavy incinerators do not in fact target anything at all, and you can place the template anywhere you like period.

This has been a pretty discussed to death topic, at least in respect to the hellhound. Most of the consensus back then was "technically it's not covered", which really doesn't help you much.

A) shoot one unit, behind him even, and assault something else in front of him - after all, he didn't shoot AT anyone, he just placed a template.

B) shoot into close combat - he does not declare a target, he just lays the template down

Those two are nuts. You're still firing a weapon, and must target a unit to do so.

C) barely graze several different units, getting full strength hits on all vehicles so much as grazed by the template.

This is the one that's iffy. On one hand, you're being told to place the template, but on the other hand, template weapons normally have rules.

At any rate, I (hypothetically) can place the short end of the template in the center of a vehicle, meaning that I can have the template extend in any direction and it hits as much of the vehicle from that position as is possible.

While it's true any vehicle touched takes a full strength hit, I see it this way:

You DO have to select a target, because it's a ranged weapon and that's how ranged weapons are fired.

Due to the above, you cannot fire into close combat and while your template may hit several units, the target is the only one you can charge, if you charge.

While the heavy incinerator has an extended range, the rule about covering as many models in the target unit as possible, and if the target is a vehicle covering as much of the vehicle as possible with the template still apply. He insists that part is replaced by the placement instructions on the heavy incinerator, while I feel they are in addition to it, and the only thing "replaced" is the "put the narrow end so it touches the firing model's base".

Which is it?

Check this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/370927.page

rigeld2 wrote:Except it's not cheating. The requirement to cover the most models doesn't come into play until after you've placed the small end.

Really? The rule doesn't say that you select a point for the small end and then pivot from there to find a legal placement (which appears to be your interpretation). It says "place the template".

After the template is placed then you follow the normal template rules.

"To fire, place the template so that the narrow end is within X" of the weapon and the large end is no closer than the narrow end. The heavy incinerator is then treated like any other template weapon."

The problem with that is, as yak said about the Hellhound, it leads to unplayable and/or outrageous situations.

yakface wrote:
Upon further inspection I have to agree that the rules do seem to suggest that the Inferno Cannon template is placed without restrictions before being treated like a template weapon.

Of course that interpretation also means the weapon completely ignore line of sight (can be fired right through a solid wall), into close combat and even be put over friendly troops. And the Hellhound can select a target for its Heavy Bolter and then fire the Inferno cannon at a completely different target. And it can't be fired at all at units in ruins, because with template weapons you have to declare what floor you're firing at, and this weapon supposedly isn't treated like a template weapon until after the template is placed.


Which of course is all nonsense. There is a way to interpret the Inferno Cannon rule that doesn't totally break all the normal mechanics of the game and then there's the other version which makes no sense and is unplayable in some situations.

So regardless I believe there is only one way to actually PLAY this weapon, regardless of what the rules seem to suggest.

So basically yakface is saying NOT to apply RAW, and don't try to "place, then cover as many as possible" because it could lead to lots of awful situations that are obviously against the spirit of the rules.

Spellbound wrote:So basically yakface is saying NOT to apply RAW, and don't try to "place, then cover as many as possible" because it could lead to lots of awful situations that are obviously against the spirit of the rules.

Pretty much. Not that yak (or anyone other than you guys) are the end-all be-all governing body on how you should play your games, but he's usually pretty insightful on this stuff.

I mean, as fun as it is to bandy RAW about, the game isn't playable by RAW. We've had threads making fun of this. To play RAW is to accept that flamers can't fire from most vehicles and 33% of the time you can't actually start playing the game. This isn't the first and only compromise to RAW you're probably making. The others you might not even realize.

To be fair, even with these restrictions, weapons like these can still hit multiple vehicles, and are still crazy powerful.

Here's how I play it:

1. Declare what I'm firing at.
2. Pick point within 12" for the small end of the template to originate from, as if it was a models base from which the template was firing from at that exact location
3. Arrange template per the rules in the BRB, with the caveat that the large end cannot be closer to the Dreadknight than the smaller end.
4. Get on with life.

It follows the most rules while breaking the least.

I disagree.

1. Choose a target
2. Place the template according to the template rules so that the narrow end is within 12" and the wide end isn't closer.
3. Get on with life.

That follows the most rules without breaking any. It also alleviates choosing a position for the small end that leads to template angles very much not in the spirit of the template rules.

Err, yes. What you said.

And as long as they aren't trying to graze the "target unit" and mostly cover some OTHER unit instead, I'm fine with that.

But people are very liberal with that placement, it seems, going as far as to nearly miss the "target" unit entirely

Precisely. The template rules are very clear about this - you must attempt to cover as much of the target unit as possible. Given the added freedom of placement with the heavy incinerator, this should be an even stronger factor.

Either that, or we ignore those rules completely and place the template wherever.

Except for that whole thing where the Heavy Incinerator has a placement rule that must be followed BEFORE we treat it like a normal template, sure.

First follow the within 12", small end closer than large end. Then place the template to cover the most of the target unit, without breaking the first rule.

There could be a case for doing step 1 and then ignoring it when you go to step 2, but that would mean that step 1 would be better stated as "place the small end within 12" and not adding "so that the small end is closer than the large end," since that qualifier is added, it seems like it matters.

The most confusing part about this is that there is a confusing part about this.

Hitting more models is sort of the point of this weapon, right?

editing to add:
Also a Tyranid player on the template end of these shots here.

jwolf wrote:Except for that whole thing where the Heavy Incinerator has a placement rule that must be followed BEFORE we treat it like a normal template, sure.

First follow the within 12", small end closer than large end. Then place the template to cover the most of the target unit, without breaking the first rule.

How can you place the template within 12" and then place to cover most of the target unit? When it's placed it's placed - it's not "place and then adjust", there's no rules basis for that at all.

Either it get's placed within 12" and small end closer following the template rules (max coverage of target unit) or it gets placed anywhere within 12" and small end closer.

There is no place and then adjust.

Um, I do that all the time with my normal flamers and my Hellhound flamer. I place the small end against the base and adjust it so that the flamer hits the most models in the target unit (without hitting a prohibited unit), because I can't be sure that when I lay it out to begin with that hits the most models in the target unit, so I twist it around a bit to follow the rules. The Heavy Incinerator does the same exact thing; leave the small end in place and rotate the template in such a way as to follow constraint #1 (smallest end closest and within 12", but we already measured 12" and we're not moving the small end) and then apply constraint #2 (hitting the most models in the target unit).
I do it this way because that's what the rules tell us to do and they tell us to do it in that order. First place, then treat as a normal template.

That's how many people read it but it's not what it says. It also allows you a huge amount of control over where the template goes by selecting the short end position and keeping it fixed when trying to follow the template rules. There is no basis for this in the current rules.

The template is placed. Full stop.

Either it's placed in accordance with the template rules (not pick a spot for the small end and then try and follow them) or it's placed ignoring them.

Scott-S6 wrote:That's how many people read it but it's not what it says. It also allows you a huge amount of control over where the template goes by selecting the short end position and keeping it fixed when trying to follow the template rules. There is no basis for this in the current rules.

The template is placed. Full stop.

Either it's placed in accordance with the template rules (not pick a spot for the small end and then try and follow them) or it's placed ignoring them.

Then, according to RAW, it's placed ignoring the normal restrictions. As the short end is placed first and only after the spot is picked it follows normal rules for templates.

Yep, that seems to be what the rules say. However, that leads to some ludicrous placements.

Placing, following the template rules seems to be the best way of adhering to the spirit of the template rules.

This whole "pick a point for the small end and then adjust to try and follow the template rules" is whole new rule though.