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A regular opponent of mine insists that not only are there no guidelines as to how the template is placed in regards to the unit you are shooting at, but goes as far as to insist that heavy incinerators do not in fact target anything at all, and you can place the template anywhere you like period.

His point of view: As long as the narrow end is within 24" and the large end is further than the short, all good. This means he can do the following, according to him:

A) shoot one unit, behind him even, and assault something else in front of him - after all, he didn't shoot AT anyone, he just placed a template.

B) shoot into close combat - he does not declare a target, he just lays the template down

C) barely graze several different units, getting full strength hits on all vehicles so much as grazed by the template.


While it's true any vehicle touched takes a full strength hit, I see it this way:

You DO have to select a target, because it's a ranged weapon and that's how ranged weapons are fired.

Due to the above, you cannot fire into close combat and while your template may hit several units, the target is the only one you can charge, if you charge.

While the heavy incinerator has an extended range, the rule about covering as many models in the target unit as possible, and if the target is a vehicle covering as much of the vehicle as possible with the template still apply. He insists that part is replaced by the placement instructions on the heavy incinerator, while I feel they are in addition to it, and the only thing "replaced" is the "put the narrow end so it touches the firing model's base".

Which is it?

It follows all the normal rules for firing a template except that you don't have to place the narrow end touching the barrel. So you cannot shoot it into close combat, you cannot use to hit a completely different unit if you fire the other weapons, you can theoretically hit multiple units with it, but you must cover as many models as possible (within placement rules) of hte target unit.

Edit to add:
"To fire, place the template so that the narrow end is within X" of the weapon and the large end is no closer than the narrow end. The heavy incinerator is then treated like any other template weapon."

A: No, he must assault one of the units touched by the template.

B: No, as with any other weapon he may not fire into CC.

C: No, as you must cover as many models as possible with the template.

Introduce him to the hardcover rulebook.

Repeatedly.

Valkyrie wrote:B: No, as with any other weapon he may not fire into CC.

He cannot target a unit in Close Combat, however it is possible for the Template to touch enemy models in close combat and thus damage them, they simply can't be the target unit, note that if it also touched friendly models in close combat it would be an invalid position to have the template, as a template can never be over a friendly unit.

C: No, as you must cover as many models as possible with the template.

It's also possible to do this if you play it right, basically you have to nominate the start point of the template such that a second unit is between the start point and the target unit, OR alternatively, use friendly models to deflect the flamer, but it is true that it still follows the normal rules once the point has been nominated that it must cover as much of the target unit as possible.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:B: No, as with any other weapon he may not fire into CC.

He cannot target a unit in Close Combat, however it is possible for the Template to touch enemy models in close combat and thus damage them, they simply can't be the target unit, note that if it also touched friendly models in close combat it would be an invalid position to have the template, as a template can never be over a friendly unit.

Templates may never be placed on part of a unit that's in close combat, page 40 BRB.

Joey wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:B: No, as with any other weapon he may not fire into CC.

He cannot target a unit in Close Combat, however it is possible for the Template to touch enemy models in close combat and thus damage them, they simply can't be the target unit, note that if it also touched friendly models in close combat it would be an invalid position to have the template, as a template can never be over a friendly unit.

Templates may never be placed on part of a unit that's in close combat, page 40 BRB.

Oh, silly me, I forgot Templates get a mention there since most of the rule is clearly written with Blast Markers in mind. Thanks for pointing this out.

That was my argument as well. He seemed to think that the only part of the template rules it used were the part about what models got hit by it, and everything else could be ignored, including the basic rules for shooting weapons at enemy units.

I bolded, underlined, and italicised the important part. The only difference between the heavy incinerator (and similar weapons) is that the narrow end does not have to be touching the gun.

You're only given permission to fire weapons as part of the shooting sequence, so he must select a target, check LOS and place the template so that it covers as many models in the target unit as possible. He's not given permission to fire the weapon outside of the normal shooting sequence, so must use it to target a specific unit.

Have to charge a unit you hit with it, and it follows the normal rules after placing the initial point. You can still do a lot of tricks with initial placement to hit a lot more of the non-target unit, but the model is targeting someone.

I did play this wrong with Hellhounds for most of 5e, but I'm a dirty cheater, so what would anyone expect?

Do you still have to cover as much of the target unit as possible, though?

I have no problem with it hitting multiple units - but grazing the target so it can hit 4 vehicles is wrong, I think.

If you place the initial spot well, you can graze a whole lot of stuff. Remember that the angle of the template is constricted by the "narrow end has to be closest" rule, which takes precedence over the general "cover the most of the target" rule. (specific > general).

ahh that's what I'm getting at. I understand specific outweighs general, but why are they mutually exclusive? Normal flamers are placed with two conditions: that the narrow end touches the firer's base AND cover as many models in the target as possible. I can't shoot a termagaunt unit, then angle it so it hits only one termagaunt and seven neighboring hormagaunts if there's more termagaunts I could hit, just to enable me to charge the weaker unit while damaging the close combat unit.

Narrow closer than wider only replaces, I feel, the narrow end touching the base (specific > general) but doesn't change the fact that you have to cover as many models in the target unit as possible. Without that, again you could say "I'll shoot this landraider I want to charge". Then you'll place the template so the very tip of the narrow end touches the back of the landraider, and the rest totally roasts some unit 4" away from the landraider on the other side out of LOS. With the "cover as much as possible" rule in place, you'd have to lay the whole template over the landraider. It makes a significant difference and I believe it's still in effect.

Spellbound wrote:ahh that's what I'm getting at. I understand specific outweighs general, but why are they mutually exclusive? Normal flamers are placed with two conditions: that the narrow end touches the firer's base AND cover as many models in the target as possible. I can't shoot a termagaunt unit, then angle it so it hits only one termagaunt and seven neighboring hormagaunts if there's more termagaunts I could hit, just to enable me to charge the weaker unit while damaging the close combat unit.

Narrow closer than wider only replaces, I feel, the narrow end touching the base (specific > general) but doesn't change the fact that you have to cover as many models in the target unit as possible. Without that, again you could say "I'll shoot this landraider I want to charge". Then you'll place the template so the very tip of the narrow end touches the back of the landraider, and the rest totally roasts some unit 4" away from the landraider on the other side out of LOS. With the "cover as much as possible" rule in place, you'd have to lay the whole template over the landraider. It makes a significant difference and I believe it's still in effect.

Like this

|------|
|------| <--- truk
|------| ob ob ob
*FLAMER TEMPLATE)ob ob ob
| |__| ob ob ob ob ob ob
| ob ob ob ob Nob
|
|
(Dread Knight)
* narrow end of template
Because you placed the narrow end of the template, where you did, you where able to cover the truck, as well as a few ork boys in the unit you where firing at. The way the template rule here is worded, you would treat the area you place the narrow end, the same way you would treat a firing models base, going on from there iiuc.

"you must place narrow closer" must override some of the placement rules, otherwise the two could potentially contradict each other - if there were 5 models direclty in front, in a perfect end-of-flamer-circle, with no room to put the template narrow end closer to you than them, then the requierement to cover sa many models as possible would force you to flip the template around so the fat end is closest.

Place the narrow end closer. BUT, in so doing, cover as many models as possible.

I just don't think you should be able to fire at a cluster of space marines that you want to charge, but only hit ONE of them and totally roast the scout unit that's 7" behind them. If you happen to hit both, fine, but you should have to hit as many as possible in the unit you're firing at.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

Spellbound wrote:ahh that's what I'm getting at. I understand specific outweighs general, but why are they mutually exclusive? Normal flamers are placed with two conditions: that the narrow end touches the firer's base AND cover as many models in the target as possible. I can't shoot a termagaunt unit, then angle it so it hits only one termagaunt and seven neighboring hormagaunts if there's more termagaunts I could hit, just to enable me to charge the weaker unit while damaging the close combat unit.

Narrow closer than wider only replaces, I feel, the narrow end touching the base (specific > general) but doesn't change the fact that you have to cover as many models in the target unit as possible. Without that, again you could say "I'll shoot this landraider I want to charge". Then you'll place the template so the very tip of the narrow end touches the back of the landraider, and the rest totally roasts some unit 4" away from the landraider on the other side out of LOS. With the "cover as much as possible" rule in place, you'd have to lay the whole template over the landraider. It makes a significant difference and I believe it's still in effect.

Like this

|------|
|------| <--- truk
|------| ob ob ob
*FLAMER TEMPLATE)ob ob ob
| |__| ob ob ob ob ob ob
| ob ob ob ob Nob
|
|
(Dread Knight)
* narrow end of template
Because you placed the narrow end of the template, where you did, you where able to cover the truck, as well as a few ork boys in the unit you where firing at. The way the template rule here is worded, you would treat the area you place the narrow end, the same way you would treat a firing models base, going on from there iiuc.

But that isn't following the main rule book rules of covering the most possible of the target unit. If you target the truck you place it so it covers as much of the truck as possible
The rulebook doesn't say "as long as you touch your target unit" it says "cover as much of the target unit as possible."

Spellbound wrote:Place the narrow end closer. BUT, in so doing, cover as many models as possible.

I just don't think you should be able to fire at a cluster of space marines that you want to charge, but only hit ONE of them and totally roast the scout unit that's 7" behind them. If you happen to hit both, fine, but you should have to hit as many as possible in the unit you're firing at.

Except the Heavy Incinerator (and Hellhound, which fires the same way) have a specific order of operations. So first you place the narrow end so that it is closer to the nozzle than the fat end. Then you rotate it to maintain the small end closest and hit the most models of the target unit. So if the Marines were in charge range you could pretty easily place the template to hit one of them and fry a lot of scouts behind them, following the rules exactly.

Spellbound wrote:Place the narrow end closer. BUT, in so doing, cover as many models as possible.

I just don't think you should be able to fire at a cluster of space marines that you want to charge, but only hit ONE of them and totally roast the scout unit that's 7" behind them. If you happen to hit both, fine, but you should have to hit as many as possible in the unit you're firing at.

First bit should be AND - you have to satisfy both, simultaneously

Entirely possible - place yourself almost side on to the marines, so the only way to meet the first part (narrow closer) is to have it parallel (or nearly so) along your base with the fat end over the scouts.

With careful placement this is reasonably easy to pull off.

I have no problem with it hitting lots of scouts, if that's how they are situated on the board.

So long as, if there's 7 marines in a line in front of you that you're able to hit, you're hitting 7 marines.

Regular flamers are the SAME WAY. Place the template so it touches your base. Then cover as many/much as possible.

Heavy incinerator only changes the first part, where the template comes from. It still must hit as many as possible.

If you're saying you decide where to put the narrow end, THEN try to hit as many as possible given where it is, you're basically saying it doesn't matter at all.

"Ok I'm going to shoot these space marines, so I can charge them"

"ok"

"Ok I'll place the narrow end here, behind them."

"a...alright..."

"Now I have to hit as many as possible, but I can't have the larger end closer than the smaller end, so it looks like I can't hit any at all since I put it behind them."

"uh-huh...looks right...."

"So I'm going to put it over this unit of scouts, and annihilate them all."

"odd... guess I shouldn't have put them so close, I thought they were ok being 6 inches behind that line of marines"

"Nope. Alright now I'm charging the marines"

"Wait you can't, you shot the scouts"

"No, I targeted the marines. I just wasn't able to hit any because of where I placed the narrow end, and it hit a bunch of nearby scouts instead"


According to your sequence of events, that's a perfectly legal move. You HAVE to keep BOTH rules in mind while firing, not place the narrow end wherever and then check for covering as many as possible. It's place the narrow end closer than the bigger end, SO THAT you cover as many models in the target unit (or as much of the target vehicle) as possible, otherwise we end up with the situation I roleplayed out above.

Nope, your target is the marines - if you cannot hit any marines, then your shot automatically misses, same as normal.

It is entirely possible for you to only be able to legally catch a marine but all the scouts, depending on position

I can imagine a situation like that, where the marines are about 20" away, so placing the narrow end of the template at the maximum 12" away and the other end barely touches 1 marine, with some scouts in between that get hit. Yes, I can see that happening.

But if the marines are right in front of you in a cluster, you can't position it to hit one, and toast all the scouts behind them. You may be able to toast both, sure, if they're clustered together and near each other. But deliberately placing the template to hit ONE model of the target unit, or barely graze the target vehicle so that it mostly toasts a non-target unit? No.

Spellbound wrote:I can imagine a situation like that, where the marines are about 20" away, so placing the narrow end of the template at the maximum 12" away and the other end barely touches 1 marine, with some scouts in between that get hit. Yes, I can see that happening.

But if the marines are right in front of you in a cluster, you can't position it to hit one, and toast all the scouts behind them. You may be able to toast both, sure, if they're clustered together and near each other. But deliberately placing the template to hit ONE model of the target unit, or barely graze the target vehicle so that it mostly toasts a non-target unit? No.

You could easily do it. Since there's no requirement on where to place the small end, it is possible to place it where no matter which way you point the template you only cover one or two models., but can hit a unit beyond where you placed the small end.

If you still don't get it I'll try and post a pic tonight.

no I GET it. I'm saying that is cheating, because you have to satisfy both requirements: Place the small closer than the large SO THAT you hit the most models possible.

I'm saying you're not allowed to place the template so that you can't turn the template to hit more models, just like you can't angle a regular flamer to hit only one model from your target unit and many more from a different one. It's the SAME concept, the heavy incinerator is simply a "ranged flamer", so to speak.

Except it's not cheating. The requirement to cover the most models doesn't come into play until after you've placed the small end.

So I don't actually have to even touch my target, I can declare I'm shooting the marines in front of me, place the template behind me, hit a completely different unit or two or three, and charge what's in front?

Are you serious?

"Well, the unit in front was my TARGET, so I'm still able to charge them even though my template hit four units behind me"

Spellbound wrote:So I don't actually have to even touch my target, I can declare I'm shooting the marines in front of me, place the template behind me, hit a completely different unit or two or three, and charge what's in front?

Are you serious?

"Well, the unit in front was my TARGET, so I'm still able to charge them even though my template hit four units behind me"

No, that's incorrect.
If you do that, you miss - as the template is not hitting your target.

Your proposed situation is not a logical extension of my statement. Please don't straw man - it just makes the discussion harder.
Also, remember that facing for an Infantry model (or MC) doesn't really matter, so front/behind is irrelevant.

I get that facing is irrelevant, it was just to illustrate how absurd the situation is. Positioning it so it touches ONE model from the target unit, or barely grazes a "target" vehicle, is pretty much the exact same thing.

How is this not blatant abuse of the rules?

Spellbound wrote:I get that facing is irrelevant, it was just to illustrate how absurd the situation is. Positioning it so it touches ONE model from the target unit, or barely grazes a "target" vehicle, is pretty much the exact same thing.

There's a difference between strategic placement of the small end of the template and outright cheating.

How is this not blatant abuse of the rules?

You can abuse the RAW and still not break them.

Is this intended? No idea.
It doesn't seem overly game breaking to me, so I'd play it as my opponent wants to.
Note: I play Nids, not GK.