Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Zid wrote:
Best way to put it; gives your marines a far better chance to live through and tie/win assaults, gives you a way to hurt MCs and dreads in cc, and looks cooler than a sword. I like mine for dreads personally, nades suck at taking down dreads.

-
Great summary.

When I'm playing my orks I love seeing tac marines without powerfists, makes it a no brainier to throw my nobz at em. losing the double wound model to instant death is quite annoying if i don’t' already have a few models with 1 wounds to eat the powerfist attack then i probably will have my nob bikers ride at something without instant death for them first.

When I'm playing my eldar I'm much happier for there to be no fist as it means I can just bring my war walkers in an d trap you in a never ending assault. or if playing monstrous creature eldar list then your not going to be killing my wraithguard very often and even less likely to hurt my avatar or wraithguard.

With blood angels I'm much more likely to use one of my independent characters at a tac squad without a first. I haven't played with my blood angels much but I use them more as a loaner army and advising but most the hq choices I like to use like gabriel seth or astorath the grim ... or even better dante... the nearly eternal blood angels commander who has lived more than a thousand years (per the fluff) yet doesn't have eternal warrior and is only toughness 4 so he can be insta-gibbed by a single powerfist/klaw...

As mentioned by others powerfists will also deter walkers. I love taking deffdreds with orks but I’m going to avoid powerfists cause that makes it a fair fight ... the eldar player in me hates those and my generalship relys on avoiding luck whenever possible and a powerfist really is insurance that i'm going to avoid the fight with things.

A good example of where a fist would have been good was 2 weekends ago I played my blood angels at 2500 points vs 1250 space wolves and 1250 vanilla marines those 2 vs me. I used the sanguinar (yes i now he doesn't have a fist... but more an example of a seargent without one) and should have been churning through combats like a blender dred but one of em threw an autocannon armed dred at me… and we stayed like that for the remainder of the game ineffectual as can be against eachother.

The only choices my tac sergeants get is BP/chainsword or bolter; and did I have 5 extra points for a meltabomb. If they get caught in a bad situation, they can try to combat tactics out, or hold until relieved. The only powerfists in my army are on my assault and sternguard sergeants. I feel that they are too expensive as an insurance policy.

I look at wargear upgrades in the light of "does this help the unit do its primary job better?" If the answer is no, I'm going to pass on getting it. I'd rather have more units. This hurts me in KP missions, but otherwise does OK for me.

As discussed in the other thread on this, you take PFs to pick on low-toughness MCs and ICs, and other MEQ/TEQ squads. A PF is however not a reliable way of killing dreadnoughts, and may even be counterproductive by keeping you locked in assault via shaken or stunned results instead of using combat tactics to escape combat and shoot the dread to death.

If I have 2 or 3 tac squads, I'll usually only give one of them a powerfist, maybe two depending on the army list.

I'll give the sergeant a matching combi-weapon to match the special weapon in his squad (combi-plasma to match the plasma) as my first choice. Second choice is a power weapon, because 4 PW swings on the charge at I4 doesn't suck. Third choice is a powerfist, which will run in a squad with a meltagun as the special weapon, for opening up a key transport, if I need it.

I usually combat squad my tacticals, with the heavy weapon sitting on objectives and shooting and the sergeant riding with the special weapon to shoot stuff (first objective) and assault stuff (secondary objective). I have other units that are supposed to assault, though.

I use a fist sometimes. Wanna know why? Here is how I play them. 10 men with a razorback as a dedicated vehicle: 5 men with lascannon camp on some kind of objective. 5 men with melta and the optional fist drive around in the razorback. If my assault marines get tied up in combat by a nasty close combat unit, like a dreadnought, my tacticals approach and sucker punch it with the fist.

Creeperman wrote:As discussed in the other thread on this, you take PFs to pick on low-toughness MCs and ICs, and other MEQ/TEQ squads. A PF is however not a reliable way of killing dreadnoughts, and may even be counterproductive by keeping you locked in assault via shaken or stunned results instead of using combat tactics to escape combat and shoot the dread to death.

I also like how in that thread you ignore my post right below yours.

To the OP: Because in 5th edition, troops are not under the factor of if they get charged, but when. As others have said, it's insurance. TH/SS Termies cannot be everywhere on the board, most of the time they're looking to head towards the opponent's deathstar and kick its ass. Plus, a PF is also a weapon of opportunity. I'd give examples, but I can tell you're the type of person that does silver bullet arguments (like most people on Dakka).

Dude, we're having this discussion already in this thread.

To quote from the existing discussion...

Ailaros wrote:A powerfist is the difference between being competent in close combat and not. If you never want your marines to succeed (or at least, against nothing better than MSUs), then don't bother, but if you want that squad to have a chance against monstrous creatures or vehicles or terminators, or a lot of stuff, better pack the fist.

If your marines are struggling somewhere, your opponent can ignore that part of the battle and focus on somewhere else. If your marines are bringing things to a draw, or, worse, slowly winning over time, your opponent might need to bring something else over to bail their own stuff out. With a fist, it might even change where they decide to attack in the first place. Plus, it also gives YOU options to charge in against things. The difference between that wraithlord being brought down to 1 wound by that tac squad's meltaguns and being brought down to 1 wound and then finished off by a powerfist immediately after and allowing the marines to consolidate somewhere favorable could be huge.

40k is a game where two players determine what happens, not just you. You can not guarantee that you will always face off against opponents that you wouldn't want a fist against. You can not guarantee that you will always be in situations where you can apply your preferred way of handling. You can not guarantee that your opponent will never take the initiative and "force" you to do things you'd rather not have to do.

Without the fist, you have to get things exactly your way, or your squads can easily be screwed by your opponent. With the fist, you limit your opponent's options, the total amount of damage he can do, and his ability to stop you from imposing your will on him as much.

Forget making its points back. Any upgrade that can make it so that your opponent can't just walk away with what he wanted to do, and to make it so that you're not stuck in just one way of doing things, and so have lots more options for doing things to your opponent is itself a very useful upgrade. Even if it doesn't kill a single model, if it screws up your opponent's plans and gives you a greater diversity and ability to execute your own plans, it's worth taking.

I mean, it's the same reason I spend 20 points to give my power blobs a pair of meltaguns, or the same reason anybody has ever taken a combi-weapon or a chainfist or a meltabomb or a heavy flamer, or a variety of weapons that aren't guaranteed to always kill their points back in every single game. Killing power is the most important thing in 40k, but it's not the only thing in 40k. Something that gives you both killing power AND other stuff sounds like a good idea to me.

Even if you persist in ignoring absolutely every other benefit to a power fist (including a variety of other things like the fact that it instant kills T4 baddies without eternal warrior and can handle AV10 walkers with ease), this argument still doesnt' have legs. If your opponent drives a demolisher into your stuff and your meltaguns only manage to peel its paint, but the powerfist then kills it on the charge, you're looking at 180 points that your 25 point upgrade got. If your opponent throws a winged DP on your flank and the DP gets dropped by a fist where it would have still had a wound or two, then you have not only 1/2 or 1/4 the cost of the demon prince, while you also have to add the points cost of the marines that the DP DIDN'T kill the next turn on the charge.

AresX8 wrote:I also like how in that thread you ignore my post right below yours.

And what would you like me to say? That sometimes you roll an improbable series of sixes and kill everything? Sure, I've seen that happen sometimes. I've also seen and experienced the opposite. That's what happens in any game with dice. What we're discussing here is the art of manipulating the odds in your favor by selecting the correct equipment. You don't do that by ignoring probabilities, even if sometimes the gameplay defies them.

I've actually always found Melta Bombs to be garbage. The only dangerous vehicles in CC are walkers, and those are only hit on a 6+ in combat. I've had power fists remove Dreadnoughts and other vehicles in one round of combat. When charging one can have three attacks with the power fist! A missile fires one shot per turn, and cover gives them a 50% chance to avoid it completely.

Not only that, but striking at I1 means that if your PF scored at least two wounds they can't blend the wounds will regular wounds, which is why I feel like my power weapons are always so wasted.

Besides, you're not the only one to charge, the foe can too. I've never regretted taking my fists, as they've never failed me.

Not only the points mentioned in these threads, but also the tactical squad is kind've a multipurpose unit. Adding a power fist gives even more variety to what the squad can do. Plus I would rather have a power fist for penetration than waste the whole squad's time letting 1 guy shoot with little chance of a guaranteed kill. Vs dreads it is certainly easier, needing 6's to hit is a waste of time.

Remember that vs normal vehicles hand to hand troops only have to go against the rear armor. Due to that the missile launcher doesn't even compare (to be honest I don't even consider it a weapon to take out real tanks at all).

Then there is the benefit of striking at a different initiative. Sometimes it's good to see what the other gibronis have done first instead of having to decide it all at once.

Know what will really get people mad? I have a vanguard (non sgt), a scout sgt, a captain, and maybe more in my BA army that carry 2 power fists each. So ha.

A couple points here.

1. If you take a 10 man squad then you already get a ML. There is no "I take a fist so I can't take a ML"

2. Melta Bombs are greatly cheaper, and for a reason. They are not near as effective as Fist. They only work on Armour, you only get 1 attack, never get bonus from FC or other things.

3. having Meltas not work on "infantry" units is why I will gladly pay an extra 20pts for a fist.

4. As others have said the Fist is there for defense. Walker charges? You can save the unit. Multiwound unit charges, or IC charges? You can instagib

5. ML's are great, but if what you are shooting at has either cover or a 2+ save, it is nothing more than a spit wod. They will still be able to close and charge you. Then your free ML is worth all you paid for it.... Nothing.

6. Saying you deploy and play so as not to get charged, is like saying "I play to win" It's nice in therory but it does not always work out like that.

Many people have posted about how the powerfist improves the combat effectiveness of the tactical squad.

This is true.

However, you fail to show by how much, and why this degree of improvement is desirable with a 25 point price tag.

I've posted the hard numbers in previous threads, but ill leave the hard math to others this time.

The math is no doubt close, the 25 points will increase the unit's offensive output in CC. However, statistically this is only significant against other MEQs, and those MEQs have to be other C:SM marines or else they are better at CC than you anyways.

Essentially a PF is not gonna save you most times against a CC unit, an MC, a Dread or anything you might want it to save you from. It might do it sometimes, but the frequency that this occurs is low. This means that you are better for planning to lose to those units, and having a plan on how to proceed after you lose that CC. Combat tactics is designed for this purpose.

If you have combat tactics, its essentially never a good idea to plan your army to use a PF. Units without combat tactics might use one as a poor form of insurance, but the only form of insurance available. For instance, a Pedro or Vulken army is a good place to put PF tactical sgts on the table since you don't have combat tactics to fall back on, and those SCs offer a good reason to want to be close enough for CC to happen more frequently.

Vanilla SMs, however, are best left planning on how to lose CC against anything tough (since you don't need a PF to beat up on GEQ).

PF just are not a reliable form of insurance, and therefore you are better off planning for the fact that you are not going to win those combats - most of the time not even with the fist. Power fists start to add up when you put them in every tactical squad, which is where you can squeeze another unit instead.

On average you would need to drop 7 Powerfist from your list to be able to take another Tact Squad. That means you are already running max squads.

While a Powerfist does not promise victory against a high Tough MC, (Wraight Lords for example), not having one insures a lost. So you are paying 25pts to give your 190pt unit decent chance to survive. Now taking my army as an example I am normally running 3-4 Fist, so dropping them means I am "saving" 100pts. Not a whole lot I can add to my army for just 100pts. Oh and I now have no combat ability for my Troops.

As a Blood Angels player, I will send in a smaller number unit into combat against a larger unit if they have no Power Weapons or Power Fist. But I will still think twice before sending a 10 man unit into a 5 man unit with a fist.

Really? So for 100 points you can have 2x MM bikes, or 1x Typhoon etc. I consider that to be "a whole lot" when compared to the marginal benefit of a powerfist in situations where you want it to perform.

The following quote is exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to PFs usage.

While a Powerfist does not promise victory against a high Tough MC, (Wraight Lords for example), not having one insures a lost. So you are paying 25pts to give your 190pt unit decent chance to survive.

This quote is founded not in reality but with impressions. Not having a powerfist does not insure a loss. It makes it more probable, but does not insure. Likewise, a "decent" chance is highly subjective and simply an impression you have. If the probability of survival goes from 10% to 25% is it really worth it? Most of the time you are still losing, so it seem better to plan (i.e. spend points/use tactics in a manner which promotes) either not get into the situation or mitigate your loses when that situation arrives. What if it goes from 1% to 15%? What is the criteria you are using to determine a "decent" chance of survival?

Almost always when players think of what to take, they go with impressions rather than hard evaluation. That's fine if that's how you want to do it. However, in a discussion of which options are objectively good, impressions need to be left at the door.

Powerfists are not as good as many people believe.

I'm not saying they are awful either, just that they have no place in tactical squads where you are improving the odds of winning from bad to slightly-less-bad-but-still-bad. This is especially important and evident when your tactical squad has the option of trying combat tactics, which is free and a better option for trying to keep the squad alive.

I think the weapons upgrades are very situational. The upgrades are depending. In my ravenguard I stick a powerfist on a scout unit which I need to say beat on an IC or my fav is meltabombs for just 5 points. I think personally I like with tac marines the following layout.. Plasma Cannon, Meltagun, Sargent: Power Weapon, Meltabombs.

.

Nevelon wrote:The only choices my tac sergeants get is BP/chainsword or bolter; and did I have 5 extra points for a meltabomb. If they get caught in a bad situation, they can try to combat tactics out, or hold until relieved. The only powerfists in my army are on my assault and sternguard sergeants. I feel that they are too expensive as an insurance policy.

I look at wargear upgrades in the light of "does this help the unit do its primary job better?" If the answer is no, I'm going to pass on getting it. I'd rather have more units. This hurts me in KP missions, but otherwise does OK for me.

Same with me.

jbunny wrote:A couple points here.

1. If you take a 10 man squad then you already get a ML. There is no "I take a fist so I can't take a ML"

2. Melta Bombs are greatly cheaper, and for a reason. They are not near as effective as Fist. They only work on Armour, you only get 1 attack, never get bonus from FC or other things.

3. having Meltas not work on "infantry" units is why I will gladly pay an extra 20pts for a fist.

4. As others have said the Fist is there for defense. Walker charges? You can save the unit. Multiwound unit charges, or IC charges? You can instagib

5. ML's are great, but if what you are shooting at has either cover or a 2+ save, it is nothing more than a spit wod. They will still be able to close and charge you. Then your free ML is worth all you paid for it.... Nothing.

6. Saying you deploy and play so as not to get charged, is like saying "I play to win" It's nice in therory but it does not always work out like that.

Very good summary of good points, thank you.

Dracos wrote:Many people have posted about how the powerfist improves the combat effectiveness of the tactical squad.

This is true.

However, you fail to show by how much, and why this degree of improvement is desirable with a 25 point price tag.

I've posted the hard numbers in previous threads, but ill leave the hard math to others this time.

The math is no doubt close, the 25 points will increase the unit's offensive output in CC. However, statistically this is only significant against other MEQs, and those MEQs have to be other C:SM marines or else they are better at CC than you anyways.

Essentially a PF is not gonna save you most times against a CC unit, an MC, a Dread or anything you might want it to save you from. It might do it sometimes, but the frequency that this occurs is low. This means that you are better for planning to lose to those units, and having a plan on how to proceed after you lose that CC. Combat tactics is designed for this purpose.

If you have combat tactics, its essentially never a good idea to plan your army to use a PF. Units without combat tactics might use one as a poor form of insurance, but the only form of insurance available. For instance, a Pedro or Vulken army is a good place to put PF tactical sgts on the table since you don't have combat tactics to fall back on, and those SCs offer a good reason to want to be close enough for CC to happen more frequently.

Vanilla SMs, however, are best left planning on how to lose CC against anything tough (since you don't need a PF to beat up on GEQ).

PF just are not a reliable form of insurance, and therefore you are better off planning for the fact that you are not going to win those combats - most of the time not even with the fist. Power fists start to add up when you put them in every tactical squad, which is where you can squeeze another unit instead.

I agree completely, and this is pretty much my exact reasons. Sure, there is always that one time when your powerfist saved you, but there are a heck of a lot more time the points were wasted and you could've done something with them that could've made a difference. But ya, if you got dedicated assault troops, powerfist em. Thanks for your input.

Dracos wrote:Really? So for 100 points you can have 2x MM bikes, or 1x Typhoon etc. I consider that to be "a whole lot" when compared to the marginal benefit of a powerfist in situations where you want it to perform.

The following quote is exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to PFs usage.

While a Powerfist does not promise victory against a high Tough MC, (Wraight Lords for example), not having one insures a lost. So you are paying 25pts to give your 190pt unit decent chance to survive.

This quote is founded not in reality but with impressions. Not having a powerfist does not insure a loss. It makes it more probable, but does not insure. Likewise, a "decent" chance is highly subjective and simply an impression you have. If the probability of survival goes from 10% to 25% is it really worth it? Most of the time you are still losing, so it seem better to plan (i.e. spend points/use tactics in a manner which promotes) either not get into the situation or mitigate your loses when that situation arrives. What if it goes from 1% to 15%? What is the criteria you are using to determine a "decent" chance of survival?

Almost always when players think of what to take, they go with impressions rather than hard evaluation. That's fine if that's how you want to do it. However, in a discussion of which options are objectively good, impressions need to be left at the door.

Powerfists are not as good as many people believe.

I'm not saying they are awful either, just that they have no place in tactical squads where you are improving the odds of winning from bad to slightly-less-bad-but-still-bad. This is especially important and evident when your tactical squad has the option of trying combat tactics, which is free and a better option for trying to keep the squad alive.

This. This is what I was thinking exactly. They don't give you a decent chance of survival, they give you a very small chance to be used at all, and not a great chance to be used effectively.

ash1986 wrote:I think the weapons upgrades are very situational. The upgrades are depending. In my ravenguard I stick a powerfist on a scout unit which I need to say beat on an IC or my fav is meltabombs for just 5 points. I think personally I like with tac marines the following layout.. Plasma Cannon, Meltagun, Sargent: Power Weapon, Meltabombs.

What you just said is exactly what I agree with. If you have troops that you are assaulting with (and you have ravenguard, so assault galore) then throw a fist on it. However, if you have troops just sloshing about the table that are not dedicated to anything, don't waist the points. There is a very small chance that your tac marines are ganna be assalted compared to everything else, there is even a smaller chance that the powerfist is going to be effective, so putting them on a tac squad is a waste.

The only reason to put a powerfist on a SGT is if they are going in a DP and landing up close and personal.

As a scoring unit SM Tact squads are best used on the def holding objectives and spamming out missle fire etc...

The issue with the PF is its cost. 25pts is ALOT of points for 1-2 hits.

Put them on a few squads and you could almost buy a Dakka Pred etc with the savings.

Most issues with army lists is the desire to field jack of all trades units that take on too much wargear and are overcosted.

@Ryan_A

We must get to the essence of shooting and close combat here to talk about that topic.

What is necessary to shoot a missile launcher?

1. You have to be in >1" and </=48" to the target unit
2. You must have been stationary in your previous movement phase
3. You must have LOS to your target
4. The target must not be locked in combat
5. You must not be locked in combat
6. It must be your turn

Then you will have one attack in your player turn, that has to get past a roll to hit and to wound and (yes we have to assume that) a cover save.

What is necessary to strike with a powerfist?

1. You have to be locked in combat with the target. Period.

Then you will have two attacks in each player turn, so you will have four attacks per game turn. You must get past roll to hit, to wound and a possible invulnerable save, which is not particularly common in contrast to cover saves.

so if I assume 6 turns and 3 of them without combat, I will have 6 shots during a game vs. 12 powerfist strikes during a game.
This assumes of course also that the Missile launcher was on the board from turn 1 on and always got LOS to the intended target and never had to move all game.

If you compare that to a meltagun, you will find it most difficult to use a meltagun as space marine without getting charged in assault. From then on, there is no meltagun. So a meltagun is a one hit wonder unless the target and all surrounding threats are dead. So if its a monstrous creature 6" ahead, you have your one meltagun, you will be eaten in return. Alternative is, bringing 6 more squads with a meltagun or, more efficiently, deal the other wounds with your powerfist. Same applies to a vehicle.

If you face a character in a squad, you will have a hard time getting to him with shooting because he can throw his companions between himself and the shots. In combat you only need one guy in contact with the character and the powerfist supporting and you get free swings on him.

A powerfist is a highly versatile tool I cannot miss in a tacticals squad unless I deny assaults, which is contrary to their function as close range units.



>

You are all welcome to join this discussion in the other thread that was already going for this topic. It even has terrible jokes about dreadnoughts receiving sexual favours

Dracos wrote:Really? So for 100 points you can have 2x MM bikes, or 1x Typhoon etc. I consider that to be "a whole lot" when compared to the marginal benefit of a powerfist in situations where you want it to perform.

The following quote is exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to PFs usage.

While a Powerfist does not promise victory against a high Tough MC, (Wraight Lords for example), not having one insures a lost. So you are paying 25pts to give your 190pt unit decent chance to survive.

This quote is founded not in reality but with impressions. Not having a powerfist does not insure a loss. It makes it more probable, but does not insure. Likewise, a "decent" chance is highly subjective and simply an impression you have. If the probability of survival goes from 10% to 25% is it really worth it? Most of the time you are still losing, so it seem better to plan (i.e. spend points/use tactics in a manner which promotes) either not get into the situation or mitigate your loses when that situation arrives. What if it goes from 1% to 15%? What is the criteria you are using to determine a "decent" chance of survival?

Almost always when players think of what to take, they go with impressions rather than hard evaluation. That's fine if that's how you want to do it. However, in a discussion of which options are objectively good, impressions need to be left at the door.

Powerfists are not as good as many people believe.

I'm not saying they are awful either, just that they have no place in tactical squads where you are improving the odds of winning from bad to slightly-less-bad-but-still-bad. This is especially important and evident when your tactical squad has the option of trying combat tactics, which is free and a better option for trying to keep the squad alive.

When I am running 3 Baal Preds, or all of my Fast Slots are full, then yes 100pts does not really add that much.

When a Str 4 model is facing a Tough 8 Model, it CAN NOT hurt it. There a ZERO chance of winning because it is impossible to hurt it. Also Against Iron Clads, and Furious Dread with Armor 13 Krak grenades can not hurt it, so again you have ZERO chance of winning.

I don't see how all these people are getting their vanilla tactical squads in fist fights with things they shouldn't be getting in fist fights with.

If a wraithlord gets into hth with your tactical squad, you are doing something very wrong.

If a single drop podding dread manages to get into hth, then you are not taking enough melta/lascannon/missiles.

You can take 3 combi-meltas and 3 melta guns for less than the cost of 2 power fists.

I barely see a wraithlord in one out of ten games I play, let alone letting a wraithlord get into hth with a tac squad.

At 2k points, 1400-1600pts of your army should be built to do nothing but kill your opponents units or contest objectives.

Milisim wrote:The only reason to put a powerfist on a SGT is if they are going in a DP and landing up close and personal.

As a scoring unit SM Tact squads are best used on the def holding objectives and spamming out missle fire etc...

The issue with the PF is its cost. 25pts is ALOT of points for 1-2 hits.

Put them on a few squads and you could almost buy a Dakka Pred etc with the savings.

Most issues with army lists is the desire to field jack of all trades units that take on too much wargear and are overcosted.

Thank you for elaborating this point.

-Nazdreg- wrote:@Ryan_A

We must get to the essence of shooting and close combat here to talk about that topic.

What is necessary to shoot a missile launcher?

1. You have to be in >1" and </=48" to the target unit
2. You must have been stationary in your previous movement phase
3. You must have LOS to your target
4. The target must not be locked in combat
5. You must not be locked in combat
6. It must be your turn

Then you will have one attack in your player turn, that has to get past a roll to hit and to wound and (yes we have to assume that) a cover save.

What is necessary to strike with a powerfist?

1. You have to be locked in combat with the target. Period.

Then you will have two attacks in each player turn, so you will have four attacks per game turn. You must get past roll to hit, to wound and a possible invulnerable save, which is not particularly common in contrast to cover saves.

so if I assume 6 turns and 3 of them without combat, I will have 6 shots during a game vs. 12 powerfist strikes during a game.
This assumes of course also that the Missile launcher was on the board from turn 1 on and always got LOS to the intended target and never had to move all game.

If you compare that to a meltagun, you will find it most difficult to use a meltagun as space marine without getting charged in assault. From then on, there is no meltagun. So a meltagun is a one hit wonder unless the target and all surrounding threats are dead. So if its a monstrous creature 6" ahead, you have your one meltagun, you will be eaten in return. Alternative is, bringing 6 more squads with a meltagun or, more efficiently, deal the other wounds with your powerfist. Same applies to a vehicle.

If you face a character in a squad, you will have a hard time getting to him with shooting because he can throw his companions between himself and the shots. In combat you only need one guy in contact with the character and the powerfist supporting and you get free swings on him.

A powerfist is a highly versatile tool I cannot miss in a tacticals squad unless I deny assaults, which is contrary to their function as close range units.



>

I am sorry, there is just SO MUCH WRONG with what you said.
"What is necessary to shoot a missile launcher?

1. You have to be in >1" and </=48" to the target unit
2. You must have been stationary in your previous movement phase
3. You must have LOS to your target
4. The target must not be locked in combat
5. You must not be locked in combat
6. It must be your turn"
1. Ya, thats a prositive, I can hit stuff from 48" away
2. Tac Squads are defensive on an objective, they DONT MOVE usually. So ya, thats not bad either.
3. Usually if you are on an objective, thats not hard.
4. Most targets that are coming to bare on you arn't.
5. This is about 90% of the time.
6. You don't understand that there is no advantage to assaults, sure you can attack on their turn, BUT THEY CAN ATTACK ON YOUR TURN TOO. So there is no advantage to assaults in that point.

"Then you will have one attack in your player turn, that has to get past a roll to hit and to wound and (yes we have to assume that) a cover save."
Yup, just the same as in assault, they can have armor saves and invul saves just as much as regular, and usually when they are coming towards an objective, they don't get cover.

"1. You have to be locked in combat with the target. Period."
Hahaha, wo there.
1. You have to be in direct contact, that is ganna happen a lot less than being within 1-48"
2. You must be stationary when in an assault.
3. You are trapped in assault
4. You must be in base contact, and thus there is a more likely chance you are ganna die.
5. You must be locked in combat
6. Your enemy gets that many more turns.

Tac units are not meant for assault, you'll get chewed up.

Your enemy gets to attack you that many more times, and your tacs are not good in close combat, and those guys who initiated it are.

"so if I assume 6 turns and 3 of them without combat, I will have 6 shots during a game vs. 12 powerfist strikes during a game."
Hahahahah! Your person is locked in combat and recieving hits, he isn't ganna last that long. And when you are sitting on an objective like your troops will be doing, you are ganna not be using thas powerfist.

I am sorry, but your tac troops are not ganna be in close combat, they are ganna be camping an objective (if you wanna cap it that is). Your troops are not assault troops, you are ganna get chewed up faster than you'll know, and that whole 1-6 vs 1 was a load.

Sorry I got upset, the 1-6 vs 1 thing kinda made me mad, it had no logical force, just because you lay out the basic principles of a heavy weapon doesn't mean they are not amazing, and you went way in depth with heavy weapon rules, and you TOTALLY GLOSSED OVER the rules for close combat and didn't include any limitations.

imweasel wrote:I don't see how all these people are getting their vanilla tactical squads in fist fights with things they shouldn't be getting in fist fights with.

If a wraithlord gets into hth with your tactical squad, you are doing something very wrong.

If a single drop podding dread manages to get into hth, then you are not taking enough melta/lascannon/missiles.

You can take 3 combi-meltas and 3 melta guns for less than the cost of 2 power fists.

I barely see a wraithlord in one out of ten games I play, let alone letting a wraithlord get into hth with a tac squad.

At 2k points, 1400-1600pts of your army should be built to do nothing but kill your opponents units or contest objectives.

THANK YOU. Ya, its a tac squad, if you are getting into hth so much, your tactics are crap. If you have tac squads that are not capping objectives, you're ganna lose. If you think your tac squad will stand a chance against a dedicated close combat squad, you're dead wrong.3 combis and 3 meltas, yes please! 2 power fists? Ya, not if you want yoru tac squad to get munched up.

Thats my general thought. Without a doubt though, most of the points that were made in the thread are valid. However they are not practical or logical enough to be used in armies or as a genaral rule. If you are lacking anti tank and are constantly getting assaulted by dreads, then you need to relocate some points.

imweasel wrote:I don't see how all these people are getting their vanilla tactical squads in fist fights with things they shouldn't be getting in fist fights with.

If a wraithlord gets into hth with your tactical squad, you are doing something very wrong.

If a single drop podding dread manages to get into hth, then you are not taking enough melta/lascannon/missiles.

You can take 3 combi-meltas and 3 melta guns for less than the cost of 2 power fists.

I barely see a wraithlord in one out of ten games I play, let alone letting a wraithlord get into hth with a tac squad.

So If i point 8 meltaguns at a single dread, 10 ML's and a pair of typhoons so 14 missiles i guess, and a flail against it and do nothing, I didn't bring enough guns?
Dice is dice. Shaking or weap destroying a dropped dread ain't stopping it from getting into CC. Your tac squad might be in a rhino when it shot its ML and melta, but the enemy can shoot an open it up. There are so many variables.
Also, not everyone plays the same way around the world, nor does everyone play this game competitively or to try to whip scrubs at the LGS.

And, as a player of assault based armies- I love this concept of "your tac squads should nevar be in CC!". Because lets face it- its gonna happen eventually. SM players who give up on a tac squad once its in melee are golden.

Ryan_A wrote:words words words words

lol "ganna", do you mean "gonna"?
Post full of too much lol to be bothered with

G00fySmiley wrote:When I'm playing my orks I love seeing tac marines without powerfists, makes it a no brainier to throw my nobz at em. losing the double wound model to instant death is quite annoying if i don’t' already have a few models with 1 wounds to eat the powerfist attack then i probably will have my nob bikers ride at something without instant death for them first.

Offhand - page 26 of the rulebook, "Units of Multi-Wound Models"

It says you're supposed to remove unwounded models in the case of allocating instant death wounds.

Ryan_A, you make way too many assumptions. Such as;
1) Tac squads are not assault worthy
There are tons of times i'd assault with a tactical squad, if you can't imagine a situation where it would work then something is wrong. Also it's because of the power fist that i'd end up charging something tough or armored.
2) Tac squads are only meant to camp objectives.
3) That every game has objectives to be taken.
I've played tons of games, rarely are they about taking control points.

Also, there is an advantage to assault, +1 attack. While it may only give the same attacks as if you rapid fired, there is plenty that could make it better that you assaulted instead.

erikwfg wrote:Ryan_A, you make way too many assumptions. Such as;
1) Tac squads are not assault worthy
There are tons of times i'd assault with a tactical squad, if you can't imagine a situation where it would work then something is wrong. Also it's because of the power fist that i'd end up charging something tough or armored.
2) Tac squads are only meant to camp objectives.
3) That every game has objectives to be taken.
I've played tons of games, rarely are they about taking control points.

Also, there is an advantage to assault, +1 attack. While it may only give the same attacks as if you rapid fired, there is plenty that could make it better that you assaulted instead.

1) they aren't assault worthy, unless the target is guard, firewarriors etc, or a tank/vehicle
3) 2/3rds of the missions are objective based

Jihallah wrote:

imweasel wrote:I don't see how all these people are getting their vanilla tactical squads in fist fights with things they shouldn't be getting in fist fights with.

If a wraithlord gets into hth with your tactical squad, you are doing something very wrong.

If a single drop podding dread manages to get into hth, then you are not taking enough melta/lascannon/missiles.

You can take 3 combi-meltas and 3 melta guns for less than the cost of 2 power fists.

I barely see a wraithlord in one out of ten games I play, let alone letting a wraithlord get into hth with a tac squad.

So If i point 8 meltaguns at a single dread, 10 ML's and a pair of typhoons so 14 missiles i guess, and a flail against it and do nothing, I didn't bring enough guns?
Dice is dice. Shaking or weap destroying a dropped dread ain't stopping it from getting into CC. Your tac squad might be in a rhino when it shot its ML and melta, but the enemy can shoot an open it up. There are so many variables.
Also, not everyone plays the same way around the world, nor does everyone play this game competitively or to try to whip scrubs at the LGS.

And, as a player of assault based armies- I love this concept of "your tac squads should nevar be in CC!". Because lets face it- its gonna happen eventually. SM players who give up on a tac squad once its in melee are golden.

Ryan_A wrote:words words words words

lol "ganna", do you mean "gonna"?
Post full of too much lol to be bothered with

Listen, if you have bad luck with dice than thats no reason to get a powerfist, its time to stop using broken loaded dice. If more often than not your weapons are ganna do their job, then dont worry about insurance for insurance that isn't ganna do much anyway.

And no I mean ganna, while it may seem like it won't take much longer to type going to, or even gonna. ganna is only having your fingers on 3 buttons, going to and gonna have 5 and 4, so in my whole life I will send 33% of my time when tying ganna instead of gonna.

To add onto erikwfg:

These are some units that you'd want to assault to deny them, most commonly, Furious Charge:

Boyz
Berzerkers
Any Dark Eldar unit with 2 pain tokens
Blood Angel Assault Squads


Plus, if you fire your pistols, you get a decent amount of attacks per Tac Marine.